Why are headers so expensive?
 

Looking at replacements for 525s. Merc headers are $15k + ( for 2 sets) and I think cmi gen x are less. Here in Canada. Do they really cost that much to manufacture? Are Merc headers the best route or are Gex x a better replacement?

Stainless marine are the best replacements from a reliability stand point.

They're so expensive because there's few players in the game. I wouldn't go anywhere near a CMI product.

That mentality is why there are so few players in the game. If people aren't willing to give other manufactures a chance the number of suppliers will always be low.

I've often wondered the same-why so expensive? If it were up to me, I don't need fancy shiny/stainless headers-I'd settle for some ugly black ones if they were functional/affordable.

Because they say Mercury. The have been gouging the general boating population for decades. Merc wanted $45.00 for an o-ring for a VOS tank on my outboards. I threw the VOS tanks away and build a simpler, more reliable and most importantly a more cost effective fuel delievery system for my cat.

I sent my cmi headers, (single engine) back to them for
Pressure testing & polishing... What a F'in joke... All they did was piss me off, they passed the pressure test, like 80 bucks or so... Then the polishing? (So they say)
Nope
Came back looking worse then when I sent them with one of my water tubes bent
Long story short over 600 bucks (between shipping & there bill)...a wast of time & money!

On a side note the "main" reason I sent them was to be polished! & I told them that! But they wanted to test!
I pressure test them myself every year B4 the season starts...
Air them up, drop Them in a cut-in "1/2" 55 gallon drum, look for bubbles!
I wanted them to look new again
Or at least better then when I sent them away
I will never deal with them again
They have lost a customer (ME)!!!

ALL CMIs ARE NOT JUNK.

CMI gets a bad rap for all the 525 and similar header issues.

However, CMI submitted a spec for the 525s when they came out.
Mercury didn't like it. They wanted something cheaper.

What CMI ultimately accepted was a product that wasn't built as well, but built within the $$/spec they were willing to pay.
CMI built that spec and sold them thousands for OEM Mercury packages.

Then after the headers started to fail, CMI got the bad wrap as they everyone pointed fingers in both directions.

if you think about one pair of marine true headers - you actually have 4 headers - water jacket header sections and the exterior header. Time consuming to fab plus materials.

I talked to other header fab manufacturers in person and most will not even touch the thought of doing marine water jacketed headers and the very few that would make a true marine header, all said as far as cost goes, one company said they would not do it for under 3800 and the rest said 5 to 7 k for one pair.

One company gave me figures as they charged for materials and the mandrel bends. They charge a dollar amount per mandrel bend. When I added that up it was close to 5k as well.

I'd like to see the process, mandrel bending a tube inside a tube, do they use sand between the inner and outer tube to keep it uniform, welding the collector and flange seem to be the easy part of assembly

Mercruiser (and CMI) are still in business.

I don't think they bend them up together.

I would think the inner tubing is fabricated and then inserted into the outer jacket. In small sections, of course.

mostly they were trying to mandrel bend both as much as possible and leave as little welding as possible. The water jacket header doubled the price plus forgot the stainless they they were going to use. I don't think it was 316 because it did not have better corrosion resistance. .

They are bent together, seal the ends, fill the void with some type of medium and bend away. It's amazing 7,000 for cmi's yet the baddest set of lemons headers for a drag car are what $1500?

Sounds a lot like defense contracting !

This.... Merc wanted $44 for a 6' section of 4mm nylon tubing for my water pressure sender. Harley uses the same thing for air shocks and wanted $24 for a 25' chunk. Local industrial supply had 100' spools for $13.
My conclusion is Merc/Quicksilver/Harley boxes and bags are REALLY expensive.

I thought the custom bike world was expensive until I got into performance boats. My custom Harley chopper has been sitting in my living room since 2007! If it wasn't for all the nuts in cars with cell phones I might consider riding again.

the stainless marine headers i have on my boat are 3k a set new.... its a lot but not that bad. They dont offer something that will work for you?


http://www.stainlessmarine.com/?wpsc...=01-1260010-00

i think when you consider the material and the fact that they are like 4 headers as someone else said the price is sort of on point... they have to make money ya kno

Its like road racing, the price doubles. I remember asking why a company charged twice as much as a dirt track vendor. I was told 'because they can'. I have four sets of cmi's collecting dust now, I switched to dana's. Next time I'll probably use stainless marine

Nothing wrong with CMI's, but CMI built Merc 525 headers have a problem specific to that header system.

Why are they so expensive? Well look at material costs; you've got around $2k or more in Stainless alone. Then look at a CNC Mandrel bend machine that does double wall - cubic $$$ . Add in your design time, testing, jigging, welding equipment, polishing, heat treating, etc. Then CMI being the capitalist pigdog industrialists they are, want to make some money too, is that a bad thing? I don't like how much headers cost either but if you look at it from a manufacturers standpoint their not such a bad deal.

I just had a set of custom stainless headers made for a little 4 cylinder Lotus Cortina, nothing special just 4-2-1 single wall no polish. $3,500.oo .

We had to send the exhaust out on my Cessna twin for an AD (Airworthiness Directive) inspection. This requires them to open up and reweld some of the components. $ 9,500.oo.

CMI's or Like headers for what, $ 7,500.oo? Polished and ready to go, like bolt on ready to go? Deal, write the check! CMI's been around for a long time and builds some quality products, there are some other less expensive alternatives but they may not be around in 5 years for you to complain about them. I don't like the cost of this stuff but it is what it is and these companies need to be profitable too or they won’t survive. I know some have had less than desirable experiences but you normally only hear the complaints not the praise.

I've got two pairs of old E tops on our Fountain that have worked flawlessly since new back in the late 90's. I never overheated them, made sure they had the CORRECT water flow when rigged, drain them when not in use and pickle them in the winter. Most people don't do this I know and when you mistreat your equipment it doesn't last as long.

They use a low melting alloy between the tubes. It gets pored in between them when they are standing up and they bend them. And it gets melted out in hot water after they get welded. Very cool stuff to have in a machine shop for odd projects.

CMI wont even let you near their proprietary mandrel bender. I had heard one of their older methods was to use sand but now they have a super top secret method :cool:

Can you verify this is indeed their super top secret method? :D Actually makes sense and i had never heard of that before.

Just found this interesting tidbit on different mediums used for mandrel bending:

So, maybe CMI is using Cerrobend or an equivalent ?

I had no idea. Learn something new every day.

And, to think I used to think my stainless kooks headers were pricey at 1100.

Look it up in MSC Its called fixturing alloy melts at 158F 63 dollars a pound. Sure you could use this for something! I use it to make spline sockets for outdrive tools! :party-smiley-004:Dave stellings told me on the phone how they make them and I saw small piece floating around my collector.

ya know for the money Lightning has a pretty good header. Bunch of guys have them around here without issue. I also like the Dana Torque Flows but dont have any first hand knowledge although i think i will wait till that place stabilizes before i would order up any

Jan builds a real nice product at Lightning, and he's reputable! He builds a number of private label headers that you see on the market too. I'm no Ed Snowden so I don't want to spill any industry secrets here but I think you might be surprised by his production line if you ever get to Lake Elsinore.

Good info thanks for sharing

sent you a PM.
ed

Not trying to stick up or dog anyone. But doesn't this just boil down to greed then? I mean if they knew they couldn't build a respectable product at the price point merc have them they should've just said so. But then the contract would've gone to someone else right? You build it... You own it. No excuses. The 525 thing is a mess and if it was in the auto industry it would've been a factory recall and the problem would have been addressed.

The bigger question is why is EEEEEEEVERYTHING performance boating related so much more money. I understand the whole supply and demand, all the R&D and it's a niche market but look at motors as the largest example... You can get a 500hp long block crate motor complete and ready to drop into your hot rod on eBay for 6k!! I always just thought it was funny. I guess marinization costs 25k+ a motor. ;)

try again, my mailbox was full

You know BT just bought a new place in Discovery Bay right, how else does he pay the mortgage?

i think they forgot about the cheaper design on there billing for a set lol

I thought I would get more comments on this since alot of people own, or are high up, in a business here.

Take Marina's and other seasonal businesses for example.

To stay in business, many times you have to charge what it takes to stay in business, not just your product cost times a small percentage.

Nothing is very easy business wise...not much anyway.

auto industry get away with alot of chit . alot more should be recalled that doesnt . like for instance fords death wobble . holy chit that will fill a pants quick . ford nor the transportation safty has done nothing to adresse that . big buisness always wins

the real reason for there high price is cause fred from trick forgot to pay his invoice .... ouch

So is the Gen X header CMI's sole design, direct replacement for the sport tube sweeper, with better quality stainless and manufacturing qualities maybe the first prototype the took to Merc.and was refused. I have CMI sweepers on my 540's with no issues, knock on wood. Personally I cant tell the two apart, well maybe a little where the tube welds up to the flange.

You have to charge a lot so that you can afford to keep an employee in the complaint department. Vicious circle I tell you.

Thanks for the information. I also called CMI and they advise 3 things kill headers in this order. 1. Salt water, 2. Heat, 3. Vibration. That the average life is 12 years (apparently longer on fresh water only boats), and that the port header is the side most likely to fail because of heat - it gets the hottest seawater (last pass through heat exchanger). The new headers do not have the bypass hose which increases water flow by 20%, thus less heat. Now I want easy installation so which ones to get - Merc Headers (which are built by CMI) or the Gen X replacements which may be cheaper and possibly better (or not) Any experience here? thx again