Eh I don't...our boat would do 80-82 at best with steps with current power. the 10-12 mph isnt a deal breaker for us. We are still going to be one of the slower boats out there.

I know I will get bashed for this, but I'm not sure the speeds of stepped hulls increase as much as everyone on here thinks/says. Most of the non steps in question are side by side, heavy glass boats. The stepped hulls everyone likes to compare these older boats to have full stagger, lighter material hulls, usually with more hydro-dynamic lowers.........this combination also allows for "tricker" props as well. Never mind the ocean we boat in here in the northeast. I think I understand part of what the steps are doing. Not the least of which is to aerate the bottom. If you are out on a nice glass body of water there is no doubt in my mind the steps will help. But the real world around here with the chopped up water, waves coming at several directions, etc. not so much. Just my opinion!

I have to disagree with you. The numbers I posted are real life gps numbers, I have nothing to gain by inflating them. It was a 2002 38 tg,heavy side by side glass boat that ran over 100. Can't help it if you don't like/believe the numbers but they are what they are. For a comparison, my glass 37 ol, side by side 600 hp ran 94 gps and my first 92 Kevlar 38 cig with hawk 600 ran 73, do the math. There is no comparison when it comes to steps in a boat. You can say what you want about chopped up water but it still doesn't do what steps do

Herb is spoiled, his straight bottom sutphen with 1000's runs 112, I get what he's saying though, 9000 lb top gun straight bottom vs 9000 lb stepped top gun both with 600's what's the speeds?

the 38 PP and the 38 TG aren't in the same league........the 38 PP is a beast!

A 525 38 PP runs 82-84 w/generator/a/c/flat screen tv. With 700's it is a high 90's boat (only one exists and it was built as a 525 boat new).

How is that far off from a top gun?

The PP was heavy with options never seen on a TG (enclosed head, genny/a/c and finished all the way to the bow) and it was a solid ride, you couldn't even feel the ventilation of the hull under the steps like in a TG. The 38 I drove had 400+ hours on it, 10,000 nautical miles on the GPS and it still hit 82.

I see, just doesn't seem that far off from a gun that runs 88-90 with basic cabin and 525's.

There's almost a 20 mph difference. Straight bottom vs ts tg with 600's, mid 70's to mid 90's. As for the 38 pp, it is the same bottom as a 388 slingshot. They got sued over that years ago, probably why they are no longer around.

I didn't read this whole thread but "Out of Control" Lip-Ship 38 w/750 tunnel rammed N/A Zuls ran just over 105. Rumor was it ran near 110 but ya know how rumors are! :D

Seams to run pretty good
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a3LMeoDSglY

Not trying to argue your point but from what I hear from several people in my area who own TG ts's with 525's (570hp) bravo boats they are lucky to see 88. I don't see how 600's get you to mid 90's? Just think the 20 mph comparison is a bit of a stretch.

Like I said a TS 500efi boat is low 80's. Our boat does 70 on a good day. Thats about 10-14 mph difference. I don't think stepped hull efficiency increases with speed but I could be wrong.

I do not believe so based on the IP.

2006 38 ts I was on a few times with 525's topped at 85.... Never went over.... So if he's doing 88 he's movin

03 with 525's, xr's with its, 6 people full of fuel, tools gear etc 84, light 2 people 88, the owner once got it to 90 on fumes perfect conditions.

wow, maybe something was off in my buddys boat... not sure...

Only thing I know for sure is that after a season with the 750's, you'd wish they were 1100's. rinse, repeat.

I'm not sure I really want to get into this, but here goes. I never commented on any particular boats speed. So, your comment about the 2002 Top Gun running over 100 wasn't an issue with me. My comment concerned the gains from steps........apples to apples. You mention the 37 Outerlimits with steps, side by side 600's and the 38 Cigarette with 600 hawks. 21 mph faster with steps! I find that hard to believe that we are talking apples to apples there. Was the horsepower the same? Were the drives the same? Were the props the same?

is that Gordon's? If so does he have boxes or shortys? might explain some of the difference.

after reading this thread, the speed disparity seems as though it's more a function of weight than steps. I'd venture a guess that if our 94 500 efi boat weighed 2000lbs less we'd be around 72-73 which cuts the gap even more between a stepped boat and flat boat (10 mph). With that you lose almost half the cabin and the lighter layup t/s's from what Ive seen have cracks around the cowling and engine bay.

Do we not have any 38 TS staggered vs non staggered w bravos and 525s to end the debate on how much the stagger adds?

I suspect that the answer to the OP is that you would have a 100 mph boat on a 750 hp TS 38 bravo boat.

Kevin rigged the both of the above boats with the same power. He had the 600's in the Outerlimits Stilleto, Pulled them out and put them in the Kevlar Layed up Cig. These were his numbers, real proven numbers. The drives on the Outerlimits were Xr's I believe and the Hawk has 3's. So if you want to say 5 MPH for Trans weight and drives, that is the only real difference. Cig92 also is a driver and was just giving his experience based on facts. No reason to lie or fabricate.

My 93' Top Gun had 875HP, 3A drives, Perfect Setup from LIPSHIP and TNT. I had 1.62 ratio drives spinning 17.75x31 4 blade props. I ran around 97-98. Heavy Top Gun.

My TS Playboy has twin 500 EFI which make 570-580 on the DYNO. The boat runs 88-89mph. Uses much less gas. And the 35 playboy has no transom notch like the TS GUN.

I am a believer, the TS is just more efficient. Based on my numbers we are talking 600HP more to run 8MPH faster. That's not economical no matter how you skin it

Why are we comparing a OL to a cig? There is no relevance. The comparison is a cig to a cig. I'd venture a guess that if you had a flat bottom OL with 600's it would run over the 73 mph mark. The 73 mph to 94mph isn't relevant.

I'm not arguing the numbers. Maybe the OL steps are more efficient than cigs.

The 99 F2 straight bottom with no cabin but weighs about the same as a new TS, with a cabin, ran 78.4 with 500EFI's and bravos.

A TS 38 with 500EFI's and bravos runs low 80's.

So, same weight, same power, one has steps, one doesn't and it's maybe 4-5 mph.

Richie Powers who was around Cig when the steps were put on the boat also confirmed this, and said the real speed gains were from shaving weight and X dimension/prop technology.

So this is exactly why I didn't want to go here. I'm not arguing with you or anybody. I just said in my opinion the gains from stepped hulls isn't as much as what is being claimed here. You just surrendered 5 mph bringing the 21 down to 16. I'm no expert so I don't know the difference between the 2 drives/props. Is there another 5 somewhere between the boats. If so that's now 11. Which was my original point. The gains are smaller than claimed when we compare apples to apples. Again, my opinion.

Every 1000lbs is good for 3mph. Most of the 90`s Cig. had 1/2 cabins, I`d agree weight is the biggest factor

Yes Gordon's boat. Sportmaster shorties, and its boxes, as delivered by cigarette when new. It might have a 1" spacer now.

I've only seen one late 90's cig with half cabin. All of the ones in this area have full and all of the ones for sale have full.

Guy I know here has 06 39 gun with staggered 525's, I have a 04 side by side 525's. Same drives on both boats, we both run the same speed, 85 mph

My 525 boat runs 85 on the gps no bullchit. People can claim whatever they want but with everyday gear and fuel in freshwater it will run 85. My recall even shows 88 but I've never been close to that.
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That's because once you hit 88, you time travel. You just don't remember it.....

wow,,when did he get that extra 5mph from his last best?is that on a gps speedo.

Going off what I recall from his last trip out. Gps on Benjamin's phone. He did a few things and picked up over 500 rpm. That might have been 108. Are you the sutphen gps police? Seems like your trolling everyone's speed claim?

guess I have to,,since you've posted wrong,btw,his best was 107 as reported to us.should fact check stuff and not always hear parts of conversations.sometimes rattling 540's are really 598's,maybe those speeds were check w/ a feeler gauge.:D

[QUOTE=sutphen 30;4245663],his best was 107 as reported to us.

107 was a "reported" fact too?? Anybody actually SEE a GPS number?

Well I'll make sure I don't post anything to make lite or a joke and make sure we stick strictly to the facts. God forbid somebody doesn't look up exact fact when making a joke

when making a joke after the facts come out,,one should use this guy.:D:D so the fact checkers won't come out.:cool-smiley-027:

now wheres my feeler gauge.:bong:

[QUOTE=kreed;4245665]thanks for the back up,,very hostile crowd when it comes to speeds and wave heights.:D:D

Whoa. Calm down. I do have the GPS image on my e-mail. I do not know how to post it. I would be happy to e-mail it to Billy, Kreed, whoever. It was 107.2. What was said was that we did this in some pretty nasty water. The boat was still climbing when the water we were rapidly approaching was getting worse. So, I let off. In defense of Jamie I did say that 110 was pretty much in my reach on that run. Also, I said to Jamie we were trimmed "safe", which is how I run the boat. If I ran the boat on the edge of disaster there was probably another 2 mph. That is where he got the 112. I'm pretty proud of what we accomplished with this boat. If it never runs faster than 107 that is still 7 mph faster than any of you clowns said it would go!

clown,,your the clown that said he run in any water w/ anyone.looks like you'd get your clown azz handed to you by 700hp OL's.Then there may be an Apache or 2 that will send you back to the clown car.so your winter project is to cut some steps in that tub.:D:D either that,,drive it over Niagra,,that should get you to 112mph.:D

hey,I need to bring back that carb body to you.give me a call,,you clown :D

I love winter.:duel: