A Whole Judicial Conspiricy!!!!
 

Needless to say, fighting my noise ticket in court was an exercise in futility. What I learned today was that no matter what anyone will tell you or advise you in fighting a ticket, it comes down to one simple issue, CREDABILITY!:mad: Our law enforcement individuals are placed on a pedistal of superior fortatude that inhibits them from being questioned on issues of knowledge, trustworthiness, and accuracy. No amount of testimony, facts, logistics, or plane common sense would change the opinion of the court as to the validity of the officers testimony. " I believe both sides presented wonderfull arguments, but at this point I simply have to decide whose testimony is right"... Thats F#$ckin' a bunch of Bull****!!! I was right, I am right, and continue to be right. Yes my boat is loud, I told the judge that, but we are here on behalf of the test proceedure itself, and how it was preformed. It was executed wrong, my witness cowaberated sp? it, what else do you need. Not to mention my witness is a Full Time, "Firefighter", as was stated in the court record. What gets better, is that are court systems must se Police officers as a more reliable source of information than a Firefighter. The funny thing about it is, the Police officer lied, or had a real hard time remembering what he had done. It doesn't matter, they can take that 150 F$%ckin' dollars and choke on it the lyin' suns a bithces! The officer lied under oath, where does leave us as the helpless public. Midnight:cool:

Midnight
You needed Mr. Attorney Man ! You were in their system .
Does this count as points or anything on a driving Record ?

F#%$#$%^%ck 'em... What can you do ? Maybe during the Winter you can put a set of those 'good' flow-thru muff's that were raved about on this board a few weeks back.Someone said they made NO diff. on perf..and that they liked 'em. That way it looks(to the MAN) that you are showing due-diligence in 'abating your illegality' Good Luck.. That sure is a sh$t way for the community to make money!!!!:mad:

Ta boot, the judge said that my boat can't go back in the water until it has been fixed. Yah right, they can chase me all the way up the LK MI shoreline on Sunday. I'll have do silencers for next year, but I have no clearance in the middle none, 4 pipes right next to one another. What a joke though, what ever the PIGS say is gold, thats complete horse****. MIdnight:cool:

That is unfortunate, but not unexpected.

Go ahead and write the letter but be sure to keep it factual and void of emotions. You should express your dissapointment but do it in a matter that does not lose you credibility with the Judge. It won't change anything but at least you can get the dissapointment of it all off your chest.

you may want to include documentation on how a noise violation test is "suppose" to be conducted vs how it "was" conducted.

You need to hire Pat Patel for the appeal.

Sorry to hear it...I remember when you got the ticket and I thought you had a damn good case. Clearly a case of screwing the citizen and favoring the system. :( :mad:

Sorry man. I understand your frustration.

A few years ago I was part of a jury during a criminal case. The defendant was charged with drug (crack) dealing. It was painfully obvious that this jerk was guilty but because the cops screwed up so bad during the search of this guys house they had no evidence. No proof of who owned the drugs, the house or the cars parked outside that had crack and various forms of paraphernalia in them. They had nothing.
We had to let him go.:rolleyes: We had no choice.
It was like the Keystone Cops.
Thses are the "professionals" we have to rely on to protect us?
Worst part was, this guy lived in my development and my daughter used to ride past his house on her way to school.:eek:

What Kind of boat
 

Midnight,

What are you running? Is the boat a 42' Lighning with tripples? Over the transom exhaust? Just curious, I did a project on one a few years ago. The boat was in NJ.

this has been a problem with MR since his childhood

i heard your boat in the channel, didn't sound to loud to me, in fact it sounded pretty good:) you will never beat them on this cause you are on the wrong side of the political correctness thats so common today. don't try to beat the system, just f*$@ the system when it's not looking:D

maybe the judge was a sailboater and you can get a new trial due to his conflict of interest:p

Midnight,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you admit before that you thought your boat was too loud? I don't understand how it is the fault of the police if you know you are in violation of a law, and they enforce it.

Kaama, you are right, it is Gov't by the people, laws are written by the legislature. Don't like the laws, elect new representatives to change them. Law enforcement's job is to enforce the laws that are written by the people! In case you haven't noticed we are a loud minority!

Vern

Is "Les" the moderator fro boatered.com a judge in Michigan?:D :D :D

Just curious:cool:

I was awarded one of those bogus tickets for "excessive noise" some time ago. The cops see us as some kind of cash cow. Problem is, law enforcement is constantly lowering the bar to pull in more money. The greedy bastards have a decent salary, excellent benefits, etc. whilst hiding behind the "putting our lives on the line everday" credo.

One of the water cops in our area is notorious for harassing powerboaters. This guy won't even wave back to you if you try to be cordial. On the way to the marina in a no wake, he races up to me recently and growls "got a switch" (silent choice). My boat has stock exhaust, single engine!

I've travelled extensively for business and spent enough time oversees to realize that only in America do we have this rampant harrassement. It really sucks that we've come full circle in this regard. Fight them evertime in court, even if it seems futile. That way you keep them away from the hard working public that feeds their greedy mouths.

We usually just let the cops do the bashing!!

I could say "Ask Rodney King" DOH! But that would be in bad taste, so I won't;)

Midnight,

Do not waste the ink and cellulose writing a letter to the judge. Moreover, if the case was decided based upon the judge's determination of the parties' credibility, an appeal is a wate of time: such decisions usually may only be reversed upon a showing of an abuse of discretion which is next to impossible to prove.

If this happens again, take an expert witness who will have taken noise tests prior to court. If the expert is "certified" in the use of the noise measuring equipment and/or has more experience in doing such tetsts as the cops who stop you, you will stand a much better chance of winning. Moreover, a phknlwyr from MI by your side wouldn't hurt either.

Have a mechanic friend print you an invoice showing that some remedial work has been done to the exhaust system, carry it with you in the boat, and enjoy yourself.

Gosh troutly that jerk off up there is giving good folks like you and jen a bad rap oh wait a minute she did think i was gay maybe he is just giving you a bad rap.

The cops see us as some kind of cash cow. Problem is, law enforcement is constantly lowering the bar to pull in more money. The greedy bastards have a decent salary, excellent benefits, etc. whilst hiding behind the "putting our lives on the line everday" credo

Breathe later,

In Michigan, where Midnight got his ticket, the police do not get a dime for the tickets they write. My pay is not determined by how many I write, nor does the Police Department get a dime from the tickets that their officers write. We do not set the bar, the lawmakers do!

I would be happy to set up a ride-along for you so you can see what it is like in our shoes. I think you would walk away with a little different perspective on police officers as whole.

Vern;)

Sorry guys I mean no offense. I know it's not a perfect world. I guess I just don't agree with a lot of this stuff that goes on within our judicial system. I just makes me angry.

There's a LETTER of the law and there's a SPIRIT of the law.

Kaama,

No offense taken:D

Vern

There's a LETTER of the law and there's a SPIRIT of the law.

That's what Troutly talking about with discretion.;)

Vern

Vern,

Thanks for your reply. What really irks me is when you try to be cordial and polite to some of these officers and they dis you. As a group, the performance powerboaters adhere to regulations and safety issues extremely well. We've got among the most to lose. I'm constantly amazed and irritated when I see pwc's, pontoon boats, bass boats, etc. racing through the no wakes, brandishing open containers. Yet the performance boaters are getting cited for petty stuff like excessive noise (with questionable, at best, legal justification).

I don't know about Michigan, but in Illinois there is some return on the $ to law enforcement for tickets issued. Until recently, local municipalities (neighborhoods with a PD) were issuing local violations for speeding. That is until the county courts became aware of this procedure. The locals got the entire fine to do with as they pleased, which meant a larger budget (raises) for the cops. County gov't. wasn't impressed so the judges started dismissing these cases. As fines are just another form of tax, you are indirectly the beneficiary of this money.

Regards,

Mark S.

Mark S.

Anybody would be P.O'd if they were dissed, fact of life. I don't blame you for being upset, I just don't like it when people use generalities to describe a whole group of people.

The same thing is done with powerboaters, we are portrayed as druken idiots that don't know port from starboard. This upsets me too! I think you can agree that it's the minority that causes this perception. It is the same with policework, the mistakes make headlines, the good things we do never make the headlines.

Vern

Vern, long time no talk! Did you say "ride along??" I'd LOVE to give it a go. A weekend would work best for me!!!! I know a LOT of officers (from family to neighbors to friends like you and Troutly) but have never had the opportunity to do anything other than sit at a speed trap with a buddies dad one afternoon (he was in plain sight as a deterent on a busy inner city street and didn't even write a ticket!!!!)

When and where is all I need to know!!!!!!!

Hmmm....I think that perhaps there is a little more to consider than perhaps it simply being policemen who are heavy handed in issuing citations.

I've had opportunity to sit in courts and watch numerous cases where the presiding judge was obviously NEVER going to find in favor of the defendant.
One day, I watched as person after person came before the judge in traffic court, hardly got to speak their case, and the judge summarily found them guilty. You could have had the Pope as your witness and this judge wouldn't have given a rat's ass.
He was rude, demeaning, and plain insulting. I honestly think some judges forget that the taxpayers (the people who come before them) pay their salraries.

Police officers issue the citations, but it's judges that ultimately decide if the citation was issued fairly/correctly.

Just my $.02

I couldn't resist. Sorry you guys....:p

First for Panther- My boat is from NJ, motors were done origanally done @ Roger's Speed Shop, I forgot the old owners name I would have to look it up, the boat has been bullet proof.

Next- My boat is too loud, but the test was not done properly. Load or not, if you put the meter on top of the exaust exit, it will read loud. I was going in there to beat the ticket on how it was determined that I was loud. This A-Hole reads right from the training manual while in court as to how he did the test. Without the training manual in front of him, he would not have known a 42' boat from a jet-ski. I don't know what my boat reads because the test was REALLY TRULY done wrong. The guy was stumbling and bumbling through this whole thing. He didn't even know a fountain had a swim platform, but he has been on the water for 10 years as a Sheriff. Open your eyes and look around, he wasn't even sure the size of his own boat:confused: . Oh but there is no way this genious could possibly have made a mistake. Based on where he was tied to me it was physically impossible for him to reach to the proper position. I showed scaled out boats, cleat locations, I researched this thing well. It would be impossible. Then I did address the court when it was over and said, " I own a 100k boat, I came out here to fight this not because of the cost of the ticket, because I fealt, and I still feel I am right!" I was nice and complimentary to the officer and his efforts, but said to him in this case he made a mistake. I dont need him chasing me all over the place next year. Midnight:cool:

Troutly and Vern,

Well said. You guys are what we need more of in law enforcement. Thanks for your perspective.

Regards,

Mark S.

A funny story was my buddy passed me on the way home from court going down the highway. He 2-wayed me to see how it went and I told him I lost, they had to believe what the Cop said. My friend tells me, oh like my speeding ticket a cop gave me 6 months ago while off duty because he was pissed that I flipped him off while he was in his own car, so he mails me a speeding ticket. They go to court, the cop swares he was speeding and driving wrecklessly , so he felt compelled to issue a ticket. So the judge goes with the cops HONEST word. Three months ago , THIS SAME COP GETS BUSTED IN A PROSITUTION STING!!!!:p This is what were up against. Midnight:cool:

Unfortunately for good guys like Troutly these spoiled eggs really stink it up for the bunch.

MidnightRider

Was your hearing in front of a judge or magistrate? What I have learned is when you go in front of a magestrate, it is usually an informal hearing. The few times I was in that situation the cops lied. I'm not sure but I think being informal they can't be charged with purgery (spelling?). The magistrate and cop may have been drinking buddies, the cop said I was guilty and the magistrate told me the cop was right. Pissed as hell I paid the fine and demanded to go in front of the real judge. The day before the hearing the prosecuting attorney called me and asked me why I though I wasn't responsible, after I told him my side he wanted to make a deal. My opinion is the magistrates job is to weed out the cases before they go to a real hearing, piss you off enough to where you say screw it, and grab your money. In a real hearing the judge may throw out the case and ***** out the P/A for not having a solid case or the P/A may have to work too hard to make a case and decide not to push it. BTW this was over a ticket for avoiding a traffic light.

I did sit through a case over a noise ticket in Grand Haven it never made it passed the P/A. The point is dont give up. Good Luck

PHKNLWYR am I way off in left field?

Midnight, I was behind your boat in the channel at Grand haven when you were running on only two of your three motors. Remember Im the guy who jokingly tried to hand you a slip in baffle that happened to be sitting in my boat. It was a joke,but, your boat is loud as hell. Idleing behind you all day through a long no wake with my family on a nice Sunday ride would absolutely suck. Im night bashin you or trying to start at flame war, but take some responsibility. There is no question that your boat is too loud for the rest of the general boating public. Now. Im also going to add that I am one of the "Pigs" you so dearly refer to. Comments like that only reduce your cedibility. You say that the cops lied under oath. If you made and claim that your boat is within acceptable noise levels, than your no better. Is O.J. inocent because some of the proper procedures were put into question...no way. You got a big beuiful fast boat my friend, now be a big boy and take your punishment like a man. It all comes down to accoutability and frankly I am sick and tired of people saying thing like yes, my boat is to loud, but the officer didnt do the test correctly. Kind if like the lady who sued McDonalds for the cofee being to hot. Its always someone elses fault in this country.

My point is this, I was stopped on one, on one I think I am OK. But the MI law says on a test you must run all motors on a test. Even if you get pulled over while running a Minn Kota to get out of the channel, you must fire all you have?? This is from the Judge, even he thought it was silly, but yet the law. While it seems to me that the system does not found itself on my realities of life, "Do what is right, just, and fair." It founds itself on text book technicalities. These technicalities were used to put me in court forcing me to run under a different condition than what I was doing when pulled over. I am simply using the same technicalities the system used to give me a ticket. If your going to make me run more than you pulled me over on, at least give me a fighting chance by performing the test properly. As I stated before, I have no reference point on my sound readings to even adjust from because the test was not done right. My rants are this, I went to court under oath, in front of a Judge and told the truth. I told the judge on all three motors I am loud, thats why I was on one, I am making arrangements for silencers, I do not have them yet. The Police are required to do their job correctly, and the Judge agreed he should have, and chose to believe he did. I Went in and told the truth, and the cop lied. HE FLAT OUT LIED UNDER OATH, TO A JUDGE. Where does this leave me in my thoughts on our LOCAL law enforcement. I am pissed because I lost in court telling the truth, "And the Truth should have set me free". Midnight:cool:

My opinion,
MIdnightRider, you blew it. You should have got a lawyer. If the cops always knew what they were doing, Judges were always unbiased, innocent people always went free, and guilty people always went to jail, then you might be OK going to court on your own. Otherwise, get a lawyer you trust, do whatever he says, and pay whatever it takes to make bad things go away.
Gary

Re: What Kind of boat
 

It was the loudest boat in the area, when it ran. Oh wait, you worked on it, that's why it never ran. The owner now runs a 45 Sonic.

Verns right , most of us could'nt be cops. I know I can't ,I have a Juge Dred attitude.

Not trying to be critical here Chad.....really, I'm not.....but it's spelled LOUD. Not load. If you gave the Judge (was it a judge or a magistrate??) anything written that had it spelled wrongly, he may have had some bias towards you before you even opened your mouth to defend the poor testing procedures. Sorry, but that's the truth.... ask any manager.... spelling counts.

You done for the season now or are you going to do some more boating?? I'm gonna get out at least once more.

Wow, interesting stuff. My quick .02 is that while always a good idea, you do not have to bring an attorney to achieve succes in the courts. He was fighting this out of principle, not greed nor the hopes of avoiding jail time, etc..... I was pulled over a few years ago for ticket (auto) that I felt I was underserving of. I collected evidence, did the research and even called the prosecuter to try to plea out (trying to avoid the points becuase I had 5 vehicles and was worreid about insurance) of the points and just pay the fine. Long story short, it turns out the radar gun had less than acceptable calibration records. Case dismissed. I had an honest judge and prosecutor, which I assume most are. I represented myself. Point is, if you think you are wronged, stand up and fight. Midnight, if what you are saying is true, and i haveno reason to believe that it is not, in my opinion you got screwed. I don't care how loud the boat is, if the test was done wrong, the test was done wrong. Period. Case dismissed. This is an arguement of principle, not assumption. If my statements were invalid, there would be no lawyerly profession.

PLEASE don't take this as cop bashing, becasue I respect the absolute hell out of cops and have several freinds in the profession, but they ( we all for that matter) need to be held to certain procedural duties and standards when inflicting prosecution upon some else. Look, the guy made a mistake, so the evidence should have been repressed. End of story. Without the evidence, the state has no case, and Midnight should have been awarded a victory.

Okay, I'll shut my mouth now, but fight for what you feel is right. There are hundreds of thousands of good cops, but we all can make mistakes. Later.

Mike- Its the internet, your bound to have a freudian slip now and then when your bouncing from OSO to the latest Porno site and back :D Midnight:cool: