Are Great Lakes Really Rougher Than Oceans?
 

First off, I boat on the Great Lakes. Mostly Huron and Erie and connecting waters. Been on Lake Michigan 3 times. I've seen some really snotty water on all of the lakes and rivers. This new Carver Yacht ad says that the Great Lakes are the roughest waters on the planet! Really? What does "rock hard water" mean?

http://i763.photobucket.com/albums/x...psygueqm7t.jpg

Only race I've been to in SBI was cancelled michigan city. Too rough

It will be interesting to see the thoughts here.

I have very limited ocean experience, as in not none, but almost none, but have grown up on the west side of Mi.

My perception is - IN GENERAL - the ocean gets the big, more gradual, swells, with more duration between the crests, which allows some pretty spectacular launches and more controlled or "softer" (another relative term) landings.

Lake MI I believe has steep waves, with much less time duration between them, which is more like running head on into a series of brick walls.

I think this is because for the most part the great lakes are comparatively shallow when compared to the open ocean, and the wave energy is more violent because it's more compressed.

I don't remember the year; early 80's I think ? The Betty Cook era when all the big names came to race in Grand Haven. The last year only 1 or 2 (google it I'm going by memory) even finished the race. Several quit, and several more were DNF. They didn't come back; too rough on the drivers and the equipment was the story I heard.

The most recent Boyne Thunder ? I wasn't there but by all accounts the water was 5'-6' ? From what I understand that wouldn't have caused a 2nd thought in the ocean.
But Lake MI. ? Real 5 footers ? The kind where for the most part when you're in the trough you're looking at water…steep water…on both sides of the boat?

I think most people not familiar with the Great Lakes have no frame of reference. I've been out west and have had people ask me "So, the great lakes are big?" And when I reply "Well, ships sink in them, so I guess you could say so, yeah, ever hear of the Edmund Fitzgerald?".

I'm not belittling the ocean; any big water can be unforgiving as hell and will absolutely take your lunch money if you're not paying attention & I wouldn't want to be caught in a storm on either. But if have to choose between being caught out on 6-10 on the ocean or Lk MI ? I'll roll my dice in the ocean, thanks.

Anyway…just my thoughts & I'm curious as to the thoughts from the guys who have run hard in both.

I spent years playing in the pacific on pwc's. We would call in sick when storms came in and go out, damn near house size waves a couple miles offshore.

So the waves in the ocean can get much bigger, but they are big rollers going pretty much the same directions.

The great lake are smaller but you can have total slop...2 footers going one direction 3 footers going another now throw in some random bigger and smaller waves and big holes and everything is so close together it stacks up.....

That is a good description but the same can be said for the gulf stream here with the wind going the wrong way and even the Bahama bank on a windy day. For sure the ocean can get much rougher and much bigger waves than the Great lakes but both get nasty enough to sink ships. The truth is if it is windy enough any body of water becomes a ****ty place to be!

I never boated on the ocean, but a good buddy did a lot, and he said Lake Erie on the right days is worse then any ocean condition he boated, now that's also talking both being same height of waves, not 4 ft vs 20 ft lol

Great lakes especially Erie whips up from 1 ft to 5 footers in 5 minutes... when a storm rolls in... very hard to stay in throttles of the boat also because the short waves that are still kinda high, Sandusky Ohio channel is great on a busy Saturday....

This literally went from 1 footers to this in 10 minutes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygvWLHZJfpo

Great lakes chop on a 34 ft Powerquest, see what short waves will do, listen to that boat, 2-3 footers...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaHPmFbdt58


My Mistress the same day...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZny1FDQ2CI

Having served in the Navy and steamed the Pacific, the Atlantic, and all the great Lakes, I am withholding judgement until I have boated on LOTO. :)

Damn!

I had $10 on the 2nd page for the first LOTO comment.

Every year when I`m on Vacation in Florida I watch the ocean and wish Lake Michigan was that predictable.
I think it comes down to spacing, too close together makes it no fun if you can`t span them. One top of one wave and the nose is already hitting the next one, so you try to pick up speed to get on top all the while trying to avoid them rogue ones that launch the boat. Thats if you`re lucky for them to be coming from one direction.

I think most people are surprised at the size of the "Lake"



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They all can kill you

Worst water I've ever been in was the 2006 Chicago Poker Run on Lake Michigan; with 30+ mph winds straight out of the North.

This one time, when I was a little kid, in the bath tub, it was so rough the my little red boat, my little blue boat, even my green boat, they all capsized!!

The thing about the Great Lakes is not the wave size, but the frequency/distance trough to trough. Add in rapid weather changes, tremendous susceptibility to weather's influence due to shallow waters, and irregular waves, where it isn't just troughs and peaks but more washing machine slop, and it is no joke. There are even places where waves collide (end of Long Point on Erie).

The harsher weather often tends to miss the northern coast (of Erie), so the apparent weather and/or forecast on shore can be a totally different animal than what happens out on the lake, so best to check the NOAA forecast. You can go out on a beautiful sunny morning running 60+mph nice and smooth in a 30 ft boat, and come home in fog and rain with everyone either wondering if their teeth are going to rattle out, or worse still no hope of being on plane and everyone miserable just wondering when the hell the marina is going to come into view. Binderr dundat.

And like at Boyne Thunder a Powerplay put on a good show! Black 38 OSO Steve brought......

What is an average depth of the lakes? How deep are the holes?

We have a lake nearby, very small comparatively, mile wide and 55 miles long and it can turn to chit in a hurry! It is very deep in places.

The Western 2/3rds of Erie maxes out at 60-70 feet deep, which is nothing for a body of water 10,000 sq miles. About 20 miles offshore north west from Erie PA, right in the middle of the lake, it can be as shallow as 35 feet. Almost the entire western 40 miles is between 10-30 feet deep if I remember right. The eastern 1/3rd has areas approaching 200 ft deep however.

Edit: If you're interested - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ymetry_map.png

1m = 3.3 ft

Interesting info on Lake Superior..if drained it would cover north AND south America in a foot of water

OK, so it's just a different type of water. I've seen it all except the major storms on the Great Lakes. Western Erie gets the worst as there is no sense or pattern to the water; Just giant waves and holes from every direction. Like being in the bathtub that sunk all of Phragle's boats. Had to idle home over 6-8s from PIB once. Water breaking over the bow over every wave. After 20 miles of that I planed out in 4s and it was a wet, wild and not fun ride to the Detroit River. Planed very briefly in 6s on Lake Michigan. Hopping from wave to wave. Saginaw Bay had some very close spaced 3-4s once and I was able to skip across the tops, which was fun, but slammed into about every 15th wave. So, yes, it gets bad out there but then I watch Alaska's Deadliest Catch and I just can't picture water that big. It sends the big fishing ships to harbor and sinks some. One just sunk a few days ago there in the Pacific and the Coast Guard rescued the crew. Kind of cool to know that I'm boating in the World's roughest water in a 22' boat :)

ocean obviously gets much bigger. Difference in the great lakes is the unevenness of waves, unpredictability of weather, and the fact there is shoals, rocks everywhere.

there are big lakes and then the great lakes. Superior is 360 miles long 160 miles wide and at its deepest is 1200ft deep. Huron and Michigan aren't quite as deep but close, think Michigan is 900ft deep and like 300 miles long.

My impression:

LOTO is a winding inland brown water lake you could probably swim across in many spots.

Great Lakes are big, cold and separate countries in some cases.

Oceans are where Apache videos are made!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56asSZmSphs

I have only been on the ocean once, so can't comment on that.

As far as Lake Michigan goes, my experience is that basically, anything over 1-3Ft water, the average high performance boat, isn't going to be doing any high speed running. I'm not talking about "guestimated" 1-3's. I mean NOAA observations. They make the rules, not some guy in a pleasure boat. How you or I interpret NOAA's wave reports, is much different. 3-5 footers , is getting big. I always hear how " I lost sight of my buddys boat in the troughs, had to be 8ft'er". The average go fast boat, is probably 4-5ft from the water line to the top of the windscreen.

NORTHERLY ISLAND TO CALUMET HARBOR-CALUMET HARBOR TO GARY- GARY TO BURNS HARBOR- 320 AM CDT FRI JUL 29 2016

TODAY NORTH WINDS 10 TO 15 KT BECOMING NORTHEAST EARLY THIS MORNING THEN INCREASING TO 15 TO 20 KT EARLY THIS AFTERNOON. CHANCE OF SHOWERS AND THUNDERSTORMS. WAVES 2 TO 4 FT BUILDING TO 3 TO 5 FT OCCASIONALLY TO 7 FT BY EARLY AFTERNOON.

TONIGHT NORTHEAST WINDS 10 TO 20 KT BECOMING EAST AFTER MIDNIGHT. CHANCE OF SHOWERS AND THUNDERSTORMS. WAVES 3 TO 5 FT OCCASIONALLY TO 7 FT.

SATURDAY NORTHEAST WINDS 10 TO 15 KT INCREASING TO 15 TO 20 KT IN THE AFTERNOON. CHANCE OF SHOWERS AND THUNDERSTORMS. WAVES 3 TO 5 FT OCCASIONALLY TO 7 FT.

SATURDAY NIGHT NORTHEAST WINDS 10 TO 20 KT DIMINISHING TO 10 TO 15 KT LATE IN THE EVENING. MOSTLY CLOUDY IN THE EVENING THEN BECOMING PARTLY CLOUDY. WAVES 2 TO 4 FT.

Anyone who thinks they are going to go out on the lake here today, and run their 32ft vee bottom at 80mph in this water, is dreaming.

And then there is the attack of the clones, on lake michigan...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyR_ptdLh7M

more clone wars

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og3-FIMjB7k

A great event ruined by lawyers.

More commercial shipping has sunk in the great lakes then the coastal waters of the usa

The second leg of Boyne thunder north of Elk Rapids passes over water appx. 600 ft. deep

Why do they call it a lake when it it`s a River?

same as kentucky lake,lake cumberland,etc.

I think it was in 2000 that Buffalo hosted a 2 day APBA sanctioned Off Shore race at the Buffalo Outer Harbor on the location of the old Shooters/Pier Resturant and Bar. I worked that event in a safety boat. Thank goodness the posted us at the south entrance to the break wall.
Saturday was Factory 1 and all the P Class boats and some testing of the F-2 and Modified and up classes. Saturday was rough enough to break some boats and bruise some egos but Sunday came and wind was high enough the waves over the Break Wall were incredible. I remember driving across the Peace Bridge at 7am saying to myself "there is no way the Coast Guard is going to allow this race to continue today" and by 10am we had our official answer.
Western Lake Erie can be a ***** when she wants to be.

Maybe because it was man made? :D

Anyone know if AJ Fisher has today off? :D

I'm assuming that was the last ever chicago poker run? Haven't ever heard of such an event until now.

Boating on Erie (live here), Michigan (family from Holland) and LOTO (brother has a place there), they are tough to compare. Erie has the closest sets of all of them, Michigan gets much bigger but you can navigate bigger waves at moderate speeds and LOTO, has a ton of inconsiderate cruisers driving around 1/2 on plane (I will still never understand why this is even in the comparison).

IMO, Erie can bite you the fastest with it's shallow waters and close sets, can make it hard to get on plane in the right weather without beating the hell out of you. Michigan in the right conditions can be a monster and have ocean size swells that are damn intimidating with smaller sets mixed in the big swells which is a recipe for boating torture.

It's tough to compare any lake to the ocean, but these big lakes come close, no doubt.

I'll give a racing perspective on both. And not a roundy round circle racing perspective. Real offshore.

I have raced on Lake Michigan, Lake Erie, and the Atlantic Ocean.

Lake Michigan can be absolutely brutal. The Grand Haven races in particular beat the crap out of me. I don't know if it was bad luck or just racing but I never finished a race in Grand Haven. The only major accident I had was at Grand Haven and it was due to the wave frequency not the wave height. It always seemed to be more of a pounding on Lake Michigan that just beat you up bad.

Now as for wave heights, the ocean wins. I was in the NJ race made famous by the Warpath footage. We have all seen it and I can tell you even though Bob Saccenti made it look smaller with his skill, it was huge out there. What most of you probably haven't seen is the footage that day of the south turn at Seaside Heights. The 2 boats in the footage that come to mind are Panasonic and Maxon. When they made the turn you would swear that the waves are taller than the boats are long. Heading north to south wasn't too bad with a quartering sea, but as soon as you turned into it BAM! Like hitting a rock wall.

So, my take is that they both can be really nasty and brutal, but in the end they both left me with some great memories.

Dude told me last week he can do 80 in his 24 footer in 3-5's lol

Spent 15 years boating in the Great Lakes before moving to the Gulf of Mexico. This place is a millpond compared to the Lakes.

Even our violent summer storms do not produce anywhere near the waves that I have seen resulting from sudden storms on the Lakes.

Biggest danger of the Lakes is your not going to last long in that 50 degree water.

YES, YES, and another YES

I don't have lots of experience on lake Michigan - but I have lived close to it all my life Chicago and now Indiana/Michigan. I have seen this lake from the shore go from DEAD CALM to 6-10' waves in the matter of minutes - What really drives me crazy is we have watched boats leave St. Joe (Michigan) some of them are legit 30+ foot boats get to the mouth of the harbor and turn around -- Right next to them is grandpa in a 14' SeaKing Aluminum with 10hp Evinrude and goes out-- death wish is all I can think of.

We have gone out with our Cobalt 226 a number of times (much less than I would like) and if there is one common thread - You must respect water - but more especially lake Michigan. The current, the swell and waves change constantly-- when it's calm you can't beat it for a very enjoyable day-- but let it change and you will watch your life flash in front of your eyes.

Please - I know most of the folks on this site have some pretty robust boats that can handle a LOT of big water- let's all be safe out there and enjoy God's creation

3pointstar

He probably meant 2-3s in the ocean, 80mph based on a pitot speedo. Or he was drunk...Or a moron.

I've been aboard a 24 Laguna (30-35mph) in the Gulf with 2-3 footers, response from myself and other passengers was mostly "Weeee!"

I've ran Lake Huron/Saginaw Bay in multiple 23-24ft boats, and been aboard same in Lake Michigan, passenger response above 3ft wave height is generally summarized by the words "Oww", "Phuk", and "Look out!"