Future Safety Suggestion - Shorten the Shootout Courses
10-16-2016, 10:52 PM
#21
Registered
I agree. They need the front half of the tunnel "roof" needs to be hinged at the front of the boat. The rear can then kick up with actuators to vent pressure and create some downforce.
Or just run Vees....
Or Mystics I guess. Has no one ever bit it in one of them?
Or just run Vees....
Or Mystics I guess. Has no one ever bit it in one of them?
Last edited by hogie roll; 10-16-2016 at 10:55 PM.
10-16-2016, 10:58 PM
#22
Registered
I was going to say after watching the shoot out. This boat looked so good running. I thought since it was an older narrower tunnel and heavier boat, that made it less prone to a blow over. I was wrong.
10-16-2016, 11:37 PM
#23
My thoughts on this.
I've been at this game since building jet boats as a teenager in 1976 for Jim Youngblood in Arkansas. He lost a lot of friends in those days to boating accidents and he always respected that possible fate and passed his experiences to us. I was also friends with a local hydroplane builder. That being said this is all physics. You have hydrodynamic and aerodynamic issues as well as the energy of inertia in play here. Once the lift of the bow reaches that point where a blowover is happening the mass of the engines and drives take over and the bow now becomes a sail catching air instead of compressing it against the water to create lift. Take Garth's, Big Thunder, and the Outerlimits accidents as examples. Each boat hits the water backwards and upside down due to the inertia created by the mass of the engines and drives and the drag caused by the hull. Now hydraulic pressure from impact with water compresses everything from the top and or rear of the boat creating huge G forces. The energy of this is transferred to the hull and occupants. Don't fool yourself with capsule safety as they will require significant strength which means added weight. They will need to protect from forces in all directions. The occupants will need restraint systems, Hans, and have air. Emergency services should be prepared to resond to a situation with unconscious and possibly submerged occupants at all events.
An occupant being ejected with a chute would need to consider the landing and or being hit and dragged by the boat. If you were to do this you would also want to consider a chute system for the boat to reduce its chances of it hitting the ejected occupants
A computerized wing system I believe is unrealistic. In an airplane you typically have money and room for corrective measures. In boating you are typically in contact with the lower limit being the surface of the water. I don't believe there is a realistic expectation of designing a cost effective system to react quickly enough to control a boat. There are simply to many variables and contributing factors presented and it would have to be modified and tested for each hull.
The blown hydros made their capsules detachable with a chute for better deceleration and reduction of the G forces to the capsule occupants. By being detachable it allows it to be free of the engines and drives which are the mass in the energy equation. Making a capsule which does not detach means you maintain the mass of essentially the whole boat. Now the chutes have to work against all this mass of the boat to decelerate the occupants. Your best chance of survival is to make the capsule detachable so it can quickly reduces its mass, speed and energy to thus reduce impact on the capsule, occupants, and allowing the chutes to work better. Detachable capsules could be engineered and retrofitted into existing and new boats. The cost will be significant.
The most economical solution would be chutes on the boat but a system would have to be engineered to deploy them or rely on manual deployment. Again the chutes would have to work against the mass of the entire boat.
I thought the world of Garth and Jim they were good men. This could happen to anyone of us on any given day. Be safe and hopefully we can see some positive changes.
Prayers for their family and friends.
I've been at this game since building jet boats as a teenager in 1976 for Jim Youngblood in Arkansas. He lost a lot of friends in those days to boating accidents and he always respected that possible fate and passed his experiences to us. I was also friends with a local hydroplane builder. That being said this is all physics. You have hydrodynamic and aerodynamic issues as well as the energy of inertia in play here. Once the lift of the bow reaches that point where a blowover is happening the mass of the engines and drives take over and the bow now becomes a sail catching air instead of compressing it against the water to create lift. Take Garth's, Big Thunder, and the Outerlimits accidents as examples. Each boat hits the water backwards and upside down due to the inertia created by the mass of the engines and drives and the drag caused by the hull. Now hydraulic pressure from impact with water compresses everything from the top and or rear of the boat creating huge G forces. The energy of this is transferred to the hull and occupants. Don't fool yourself with capsule safety as they will require significant strength which means added weight. They will need to protect from forces in all directions. The occupants will need restraint systems, Hans, and have air. Emergency services should be prepared to resond to a situation with unconscious and possibly submerged occupants at all events.
An occupant being ejected with a chute would need to consider the landing and or being hit and dragged by the boat. If you were to do this you would also want to consider a chute system for the boat to reduce its chances of it hitting the ejected occupants
A computerized wing system I believe is unrealistic. In an airplane you typically have money and room for corrective measures. In boating you are typically in contact with the lower limit being the surface of the water. I don't believe there is a realistic expectation of designing a cost effective system to react quickly enough to control a boat. There are simply to many variables and contributing factors presented and it would have to be modified and tested for each hull.
The blown hydros made their capsules detachable with a chute for better deceleration and reduction of the G forces to the capsule occupants. By being detachable it allows it to be free of the engines and drives which are the mass in the energy equation. Making a capsule which does not detach means you maintain the mass of essentially the whole boat. Now the chutes have to work against all this mass of the boat to decelerate the occupants. Your best chance of survival is to make the capsule detachable so it can quickly reduces its mass, speed and energy to thus reduce impact on the capsule, occupants, and allowing the chutes to work better. Detachable capsules could be engineered and retrofitted into existing and new boats. The cost will be significant.
The most economical solution would be chutes on the boat but a system would have to be engineered to deploy them or rely on manual deployment. Again the chutes would have to work against the mass of the entire boat.
I thought the world of Garth and Jim they were good men. This could happen to anyone of us on any given day. Be safe and hopefully we can see some positive changes.
Prayers for their family and friends.
10-17-2016, 12:42 AM
#24
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I'm not sure that you guys are comparing apples to apples with regards to the style of these shootout events. Shootouts are not drag races. They are actually time trials to try and obtain the maximum speed for the given boat in a given boat class on a set course. This is no different than land speed racing like Bonneville. Cars race on a set course to try and achieve maximum speed for the class that their car is built for. The idea is and always will be to go as fast as you dare. Boat shootouts are the aqua equivalent to land speed racing. When a person straps into a race car or a boat and leaves the starting line, he or she knows the risks that lay before them.
10-17-2016, 10:09 AM
#27
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
You know that these events were started partially out of safety concern for other boaters right? Sanctioned speed events are the safest way for these to happen with clear courses, smooth water, and rescue personnel on hand. You aren't going to slow go fast boys down. THey need to impliment some safety standards and many lives will be saved
10-17-2016, 10:34 AM
#28
Registered
iTrader: (1)
My thoughts on this.
I've been at this game since building jet boats as a teenager in 1976 for Jim Youngblood in Arkansas. He lost a lot of friends in those days to boating accidents and he always respected that possible fate and passed his experiences to us. I was also friends with a local hydroplane builder. That being said this is all physics. You have hydrodynamic and aerodynamic issues as well as the energy of inertia in play here. Once the lift of the bow reaches that point where a blowover is happening the mass of the engines and drives take over and the bow now becomes a sail catching air instead of compressing it against the water to create lift. Take Garth's, Big Thunder, and the Outerlimits accidents as examples. Each boat hits the water backwards and upside down due to the inertia created by the mass of the engines and drives and the drag caused by the hull. Now hydraulic pressure from impact with water compresses everything from the top and or rear of the boat creating huge G forces. The energy of this is transferred to the hull and occupants. Don't fool yourself with capsule safety as they will require significant strength which means added weight. They will need to protect from forces in all directions. The occupants will need restraint systems, Hans, and have air. Emergency services should be prepared to resond to a situation with unconscious and possibly submerged occupants at all events.
An occupant being ejected with a chute would need to consider the landing and or being hit and dragged by the boat. If you were to do this you would also want to consider a chute system for the boat to reduce its chances of it hitting the ejected occupants
A computerized wing system I believe is unrealistic. In an airplane you typically have money and room for corrective measures. In boating you are typically in contact with the lower limit being the surface of the water. I don't believe there is a realistic expectation of designing a cost effective system to react quickly enough to control a boat. There are simply to many variables and contributing factors presented and it would have to be modified and tested for each hull.
The blown hydros made their capsules detachable with a chute for better deceleration and reduction of the G forces to the capsule occupants. By being detachable it allows it to be free of the engines and drives which are the mass in the energy equation. Making a capsule which does not detach means you maintain the mass of essentially the whole boat. Now the chutes have to work against all this mass of the boat to decelerate the occupants. Your best chance of survival is to make the capsule detachable so it can quickly reduces its mass, speed and energy to thus reduce impact on the capsule, occupants, and allowing the chutes to work better. Detachable capsules could be engineered and retrofitted into existing and new boats. The cost will be significant.
The most economical solution would be chutes on the boat but a system would have to be engineered to deploy them or rely on manual deployment. Again the chutes would have to work against the mass of the entire boat.
I thought the world of Garth and Jim they were good men. This could happen to anyone of us on any given day. Be safe and hopefully we can see some positive changes.
Prayers for their family and friends.
I've been at this game since building jet boats as a teenager in 1976 for Jim Youngblood in Arkansas. He lost a lot of friends in those days to boating accidents and he always respected that possible fate and passed his experiences to us. I was also friends with a local hydroplane builder. That being said this is all physics. You have hydrodynamic and aerodynamic issues as well as the energy of inertia in play here. Once the lift of the bow reaches that point where a blowover is happening the mass of the engines and drives take over and the bow now becomes a sail catching air instead of compressing it against the water to create lift. Take Garth's, Big Thunder, and the Outerlimits accidents as examples. Each boat hits the water backwards and upside down due to the inertia created by the mass of the engines and drives and the drag caused by the hull. Now hydraulic pressure from impact with water compresses everything from the top and or rear of the boat creating huge G forces. The energy of this is transferred to the hull and occupants. Don't fool yourself with capsule safety as they will require significant strength which means added weight. They will need to protect from forces in all directions. The occupants will need restraint systems, Hans, and have air. Emergency services should be prepared to resond to a situation with unconscious and possibly submerged occupants at all events.
An occupant being ejected with a chute would need to consider the landing and or being hit and dragged by the boat. If you were to do this you would also want to consider a chute system for the boat to reduce its chances of it hitting the ejected occupants
A computerized wing system I believe is unrealistic. In an airplane you typically have money and room for corrective measures. In boating you are typically in contact with the lower limit being the surface of the water. I don't believe there is a realistic expectation of designing a cost effective system to react quickly enough to control a boat. There are simply to many variables and contributing factors presented and it would have to be modified and tested for each hull.
The blown hydros made their capsules detachable with a chute for better deceleration and reduction of the G forces to the capsule occupants. By being detachable it allows it to be free of the engines and drives which are the mass in the energy equation. Making a capsule which does not detach means you maintain the mass of essentially the whole boat. Now the chutes have to work against all this mass of the boat to decelerate the occupants. Your best chance of survival is to make the capsule detachable so it can quickly reduces its mass, speed and energy to thus reduce impact on the capsule, occupants, and allowing the chutes to work better. Detachable capsules could be engineered and retrofitted into existing and new boats. The cost will be significant.
The most economical solution would be chutes on the boat but a system would have to be engineered to deploy them or rely on manual deployment. Again the chutes would have to work against the mass of the entire boat.
I thought the world of Garth and Jim they were good men. This could happen to anyone of us on any given day. Be safe and hopefully we can see some positive changes.
Prayers for their family and friends.
Shortening the length of the course isnt the answer.
Like what was said, its not a drag race, its a TOP SPEED contest.
You have to be able to know and accept that everytime you get into a high performance anything, there can be consequences and if you cant accept them then find another hobby or choose something more your speed/style.
Sort of like being held responsible for your own actions, which has seemed to go out the window these days.
10-17-2016, 05:27 PM
#29
That being said, I don't know if that is the answer. But, it may be a temporary solution?
10-17-2016, 05:50 PM
#30
Driver-441
Racer
Rules alongside those of drag racing like previously mentioned would be a massive leap forward. We built an engine for a guy with a drag car that runs low 10s. He has a roll cage, but if he wants to go faster they will make him (and actually inspect it) install a beefier one. Canopies above 130 or so would be a great start, but only if they're safe. The canopies on the "Gone Again" 32 Skater, a boat I love ran by a really cool guy, are not made to withstand impact at the speeds that boat is capable of. In fact, that style of canopy was hit or miss when it was new 25 years ago at 115mph and was replaced by the single style canopy you see now. Mr. Mungle is a great guy, a talented racer (I use that term seriously, he has actually stepped up and started racing. Very cool) and I by no means aim to trash his team. One of the issues the fantastic camaraderie in this sport has created though is a reluctancy to say "No." It's hard to tell someone they can't run their boat because it's a deathtrap, but it's certainly the case sometimes.
At the end of the day, if you want the ultimate thrill and consider yourself a competitive guy who has to be the one to beat, buy a raceboat, join OPA or SBI. Beat Jay Muller. Beat Johnny Tomlinson. Beat Peter Meyer. Hell, beat me.
At the end of the day, if you want the ultimate thrill and consider yourself a competitive guy who has to be the one to beat, buy a raceboat, join OPA or SBI. Beat Jay Muller. Beat Johnny Tomlinson. Beat Peter Meyer. Hell, beat me.
Last edited by TeamSaris; 10-17-2016 at 07:03 PM.
