Turbine boats/ do or don't
 

I'm considering building a turbine cat boat. 38-42 foot range. This boat would be built for Poker Runs and pleasure cruising. Possibly some long distance runs, Bahamas etc. I've always been intrigued by the power to weight ratio and longevity of the engines. Looking for opinions good or bad.

the cool factor is nice, getting some knowedge on the maintance
would be important. They are tuff around docks only cause of
the spool up time. Another issue is the fuel type.
I would consider doing it myself if I could find a 400-500hp
engine.

http://www.barnstormers.com/engJ0000.html

I was thinking of installing two small motors for docking and cruising at idle speeds. The turbine would run off diesel fuel.

Turbines
 

Turbines are a great way to go. If plan on boating with out insurance, you can not beat it.

You should call Howard Arneson.

Also, sign up at http://www.extremeboatsmag.com/ for a free trail subscription and read my article about the turbine powered skater called JetSet.

Jetset uses a 40hp water jet kicker on a hydrolic jack plate to get around the docks with the turbines off.

I saw 195 on this boat.

hey its hard to get insurance on 120mph plus boats anyway. I also think its going to get harder and harder in the near future to get coverage on high perfomance boats

I've seen Fusco's at the New York city Poker Run in 2000, nobody was even close. I want a little better system than the outboard if possible for docking. I know it works fine but I'd like something a little cleaner look if possible.

You need to talk to Jafo. He's a jet mechanich and can tell you all about the maintenance on turbine motors.

jet set is cool ebcasue of teh speeds she can make BUT the outboard setup is aparently outdated. Neat solution but they can attached them to shifttable drives now.

e-mail this guy: [email protected]

he was sellgin soem stuff in eth classifieds and is pretty knowledgeabel about turbines. Hell they offer lightwieght 300hp packages that would be comprable to like an HP500 (price and performance) setup:D

I heard that some other boats have come up with a way to reverse the turbines for reverse power. Like I said, talk to Howard. 415 485 0788

Ed Mosmiller has designed and is using a turbine brake to stop the output section. This allows the boat to shift with the turbines running. He can dock it and maneuver quite well under 6mph on the turbines. His company is called Integrated Turbine Systems here in Baltimore MD and his idea is to make these boats in production form as opposed to one-off boats like Fusco's

I do like the brake idea on the output shaft. This was used on the boat My Way a 46' skater that I rode on. Docking was still a little hairy and the boat was very loud at idle. Thats why I'm thinking about 2 very small motors for docking and idle areas. I know they now have trannies that can hold big power but they do fail, I was thinking more of crash boxes with nuetral and forward only. Also how do I get in touch with Ed Mosmiller?

Ed Mosmiller

410-360-0047

[email protected]

He told me he spent literally hours in conversation with Howard Arneson so he did not totally re-invent the wheel. I have seen his boat run on numerous occasions(didn't quite have enough life insurance for the wife to let me ride:D )and the system seems to work very well. He has over 200 hours on the water this summer dialing it in and everything is still working well. I'm sure he would be happy to hear from you if you would like to talk with him.

What type of boat and turbine power has he been running?

Just an idea but what if you could use smaller vetus thrusters in the forward part of the sponsons, and maybe built into the aft sponson aswell, how cool would that be the only time they are in the water is at idle speeds anyway why wouldnt they work. Just guessing if you have the money it take s to put a vessel like this together a little R&D with some thrusters is a small investment for being the innovator of something not yet tried and wouldnt distract from the looks and would be controlled with joysticks no extra shifters or cables. Sounds great A. Let me know what you think. Good luck. Craig

ps. Boeing says that a 737 aircraft is more efficient 78 percent full of passengers than the average auto with two passengers. All food for thought.

http://www.everettaero.com/nimbus.html

700 hp 600lbs 13.33/1 reduction from 35000 rpm
free wheeling gearbox 71inch long x 38inch wide

Hey I agree with the thruster type idea. I was thinking of some type of electric thrusters in the back also. They use this type of propulsion on some ships, just need small ones of course. It would need to propell the boat for long periods of idle zone some. kind of like a trolling motor. I have thought of using a small generator to keep up with the power usage, also it could be used to run other systems on the boat.

The ITS boat can idle for extended periods with no problem, and those turbines have a great charging system installed:D

It is a 40 Skater(what else?) and has 2 T53 helicopter turbines(plentiful, used in Hueys) It has modified Arneson drives spinning 5 blade Rolla props. The T43 is attractive because it has it's own gearbox for reduction. It is a very clean, compact setup.

I saw a setup they were starting up at Professional Marine in New Jersey. They were putting 3 turbines in an older aluminum cat. They had frames that held a small Yanmar diesel and trans under the turbine. It had a belt connected to the driveshaft so you could fire up the Yanmar and maneuver on that .

Call John Cosker @ Marine Performance, (386)-760-6464. He and the crew @ MP have designed, built and rigged 2 of the fastest turbine boats around for Callan Marine. 1 is a v and the other is a cat.
Go to www.callanmarine.com
and check it out for yourself.
We, (Myself and my oldest daughter) went boating last Friday and watched Callan Marine test the 43' cat, and it was truely INCREDIBLE! Dave Callan and JC did a fly-by, about 50' off our post side, @ about 175+ MPH, ( in water that had 3-5 ' rollers!!) and it was the most AWESOME boating sight I have ever witnessed.
You will be hearing about a couple Callan Marine events in the near future!:D
I can't believe Cosker gets paid to do this stuff!:cool:
MD

The thruster idea is perfect, but why use an electricly driven system? The engine gearbox should have power takeoffs that could be used for a hydraulic pump and used to drive hydraulic thrusters. No trouble with batteries that way and no fear of burning out the thruster motors from over use.
If noise around the dock is bad you could go with a small 2 or 3 cylinder diesel to power the hydraulics.
Just an idea.

How are past conversions holding up in a salt enviorment ? Just wondering.

What about attaching the lower half of a jet-ski in the tunnel???

Bulldog aka Ronnie

PS If this is actually a good idea and someone does this, they owe me a ride in the boat.

Howard Arneson uses 2 jet ski motors in his for slow speed maneuvers, one in each sponson. He probably has more salt water time on his turbines than anyone-I suspect he would be the one to ask. I know they need to be "compressor washed" regularly but I think that's more of a carbon/soot thing than a salt problem. Just think how cool it would be to fresh water flush that back at the marina:D Might start small weather fronts though:p

Ted - I saw the ITS boat docking at RedEye's this summer. You could hear the hot ends slow down and stop as he applied the brake to shift them. It all went fairly smoothly, but I'm sure that he has some experience behind the wheel... The unlimiteds used to use this same system for starting the engines at the dock and holding the prop still so the boat didn't take off right away.

Noise at idle? Anyone been behind 900SC's with dry pipes lately?

Okay, the thruster idea with a twist:

Mount the thrusters in the aft "outside" corners of the sponsons at a 45 degree angle. Put the tunnels in as high as possible but low enough to avoid sucking air while maneuvering.

This way, both in "forward" will move forward, both in "reverse" will move reverse. Opposing directions will rotate the boat.

Obviously a 45 angle will reduce the effective thrust component but the advantage in maneuvering should more than offset that reduction.

You could use the 24 volt thrusters and use custom "two step" joysticks that would offer low (12v) and high (24v) depending on how far you push the sticks.

Electric thrusters would offer the cleanest installation, but they take some substantial batteries (usually around 1000 ah).

Hydraulic thrusters will require a 15 horse power source. That will probably outweigh the batteries (but maybe not).

Anyone seriously considering a Gas Turbine boat really needs to see Doug Lewis at Professional Marine in Brick NJ. I saw the setup he is doing for John Wolley’s 50’ Cougar Cat. This is sweet, no holes in the bottom of the boat to feed water to “Jet Ski” motors. No outboard engines trying to tear itself off the back of the boat, No Gasoline tanks and Gasoline/oil mix. The maneuvering engines will burn the same fuel as the Gas Turbines, and the # 6 drives will be shifted around docks just like any #6 boat. The best part is you will be allowed to dock anywhere, the Gas Turbines won’t be running, and the fire/burn risk is non-existent.

Philip

I can see there are many ways to skin the cat here, I really love everyones help on this one. I want the boat to be friendly around the docks. If you notice most everyone agrees that the tubine part is no problem but the idling problem is the tricky part.

Ok now who's boat should these turbines fit into?

They seem to work better in big boats, both for the space and for the ability to resist blow-over. Since the power is there a big boat can still reach very high speeds and extra stringers, bulkheads, etc. can be added to take the strain of the powerplants.

Nor-Tech 0r Skater? I don't know if Randy MTI is building big enough:D

There is a web site www.turbineboat.com with some links.One of those link sites Mark Nyes has some new videos. These are in a small boat, but fun to watch and turn up the volume!Warning, you will need a fast connection to download, but worth it. What is the list of thing"s you need to consider before converting besides. Strong drive system, ability to run alt., noise factor ?

I think we all should get together and have some drinks, just because we can, and act like we know what the hell we are talking about and lets build the boat ourselves. OK Im dreaming but sure would be fun (yes). put it in a SKATER I wanna ride, keep us posted Byron. Good Luck, Craig (hope to meet some of ya guys at ft. laud boat show)

Randy at MTI builds the perfect boats for turbine power. He is one builder that actually runs his hull designs through a wind tunnel.

We have a system in place such that you can maneuver around the docks and drive it just as though you were driving a piston powered boat. Our engines are computer controlled. (A system we designed ourselves) No extra brake pedals ... no extra throttle pedals just shifters and throttles. Fully controlable around the docks on your turbines. We have a sound attenuation system for the turbines for those of you who don't like the big noise and we have a water injection system for the exhaust to prevent you from setting fire to the dock or passers by:D

A sad note here. Ed Mossmiller was killed when the Skater he was driving flipped upside down several weeks ago.

If anyone has questions on turbines feel free to call us or contact on the internet.

[email protected] www.firestrm.ca 705-790-7702

Yes, Ed of ITS was killed a couple of weeks ago.

No matter how trivial our questions are compared to matters of life and death, one cannot help feeling the knowledge void left by the untimely departure of one of our fellow OSOers. I am sure he would have been the person to talk to about turbine applications. ITS is known even overseas as THE turbine expert... :(

As far as my opinion is concerned, I believe turbines are the future of boating. There is still a long road ahead though to make them user-friendly enough so that they become mainstream power options. But you cannot stop progress. Look at diesels: almost stopped smoking, lost some major weight, upped their power (sounds like a Weight Watchers ad...) And this has occured within a relatively limited period of time. Why? Because large corporations like Yanmar recognized the value of our market and started developing performance market-specific products. As soon as companies like GE, Textron, MTU, Rolls-Royce... notice our market and get to work, we'll see more turbines.

The present tendency is towards CODOG power, that is to say combined diesel OR gas turbine power, meaning that when a boat is equipped with both, power can be shifted from one to the other through a common gearbox but only after one is shut down. I hear that Fabio Buzzi as well as Renk Tacke is working on trannies where shifting from one source of power to another can be done on the go. This is the only acceptable solution as presently, diesels used for docking have to be shut down and the turbine can be activated only then. However, while the turbine is spooling up, the boat is without power and control. Once this is solved for stuff like TF40 and 50 turbines (4000 to 5600hp) combined with diesels like Yanmars or Cummins (300 to 500hp) like on that WallyPower boat, the technology will have to be brought down in scale to be used with smaller turbines and thruster motors. It will be some time before we see this so I think we are stuck with playing with electrical or jet-ski motors... One day though...

Re: Turbine boats/ do or don't
 

I would also consider giving John Conner a call as well. They ran a turbine with an Arneson drive on the Gentry Eagle. The next transatlantic boat was to be a 150 footer running four turbines. They wanted to made the run without having to stop halfway across for fuel. Obvoiusly the boat never came to be due to Tom's death. They spend a ton of development time and money in these projects, so he would be a great source for advise.

Re: Turbine boats/ do or don't
 

uhhh.. you guys do relise this thread is from 2002.. I doubt he is still looking.plus he has not logged on in 11 months.lol

Re: Turbine boats/ do or don't
 

If I'm not mistaken, the turbines run off diesel.

Re: Turbine boats/ do or don't
 

Your right Cuda, the more dense the fuel the better!

Byron, My Way is owned by my uncle. I have followed his transformation from piston power to Turbin power. I may be mistaken, but I think he was one of the first to use a brake on the out put shaft to shift crash boxes. Hell, I think he had a machine shop running for a couple of months on his equipment alone!

Either way, you have seen the advantage of turbin power, I'm glad your creating another turbine powered boat.

As for docking, in my opinion, I like the noise. And to be honest, once the boat gets close to the dock, the ropes are thrown, and the turbins are spooled down (off). the noise to me just draws a crowd to help you dock :-)

Good luck, and may I sugest talking with MTT out of Texas. Marine Turbin Tech . he's has LOTS of usefull information for you, and can answer all your questions! He knows My Way well.

Re: Turbine boats/ do or don't
 

I have driven a turbine cats out of Turbinemarine in Pomapano
www.Turbinemarine.com John Arruda is the guy who owns and does the work. I also race a 51 OL with turbines, I can tell you, with the braking system he uses, docking is as easy as piston power.
He also waterjackets the exhaust to a temp of 140 degrees and gives a 1000 hour warranty on the motors.
We run the OL on av gas, or if we getr stuck out on the water, 75 gallons deisel for every 25 gallons high test
Check out his website and ours
www.turbinemarine.com www.amfoffshoreracing.com