If it wasnt for Gentry, Reggie would still be standing around with a question mark over his head when it comes to step bottoms. Now he has dollar sighns!:eek:

Step Bottoms are getting a bad rap from the simple fact that many are poorly designed and engineered.

Correct me if I am wrong - PLEASE but I was told that my 51' Fountain INXS was the first step hull Fountain made. Of course the first time it was splashed in 1994 at the PROPPS/APBA Race in South Padre, Texas the hull cracked and had to be sent back to Reggie for repair. Anybody have any history on my INXS?

Great Discussion
 

This type of thread is why I like OSO so much.

I think Frequency has hit on the reason I considered a step bottom boat. I like the look and sound of the offshore performance boat but do not need to go 100 mph to satisfy my boating needs. I do however want the most efficient hull I can buy that will safely satisfy that need. I think a properely designed stepped hull provides that.

Take a similarly equipped 37 AT and a Sonic 386. Same power, same amenities, the AT will go faster than the Sonic (even with the new infusion process). But what about cruising ? Take a boat (with 500 EFI's) that requires 4000 RPM to go 60 versus a boat that requires 3500 to go 60 and it is not hard to see the savings. Forget about top speed, I am talking useability and cost of operation.

I have also been in 60+ MPH turns in Formulas, Fountains, AT's, Sonics, stepped and non-step PQ's and see no difference what so ever in cornering ability. I am not racing, and don't anticipate racing (accept in a straight line). I do however put nearly 100 hours a year on a boat cruising, and the step does make a difference.

T2X, I really appreciate your comments, I think you know your stuff and respect your opinions/comments. I do not think steps help boats less than 30 feet. With anything over 350 HP they run on the outdrive, no wetted surface anyway.

If the "steps" are not that important in V's, WHY did Skater build their new V with them? They have been around a while and seem to know a little bit about speed, and i don't think they would do it "STRICTLY" for marketing, there must be some performance gains!

Steps are faster.......every 30+ foot non-stepped V hull with the same power without them is slower. Some poorly designed steps are poor performers (not only in a turn).

There are differences between a Sonic and an AT other than steps
.....like the deadrise of the vee...especially forward. Deeper vee hulls are inherently slower than shallower designs.

Steve Koss, I certainly respect you and Peter Hledin is peerless as a Cat designer builder. That having been said, neither of you, nor me for that matter, is perfect. Peter admits that he is learning from his vee bottom experiences, and also has to admit that the fact his new vee and current cat sponsons have the same number of steps is as much happenstance as circumstance.

My experience with the twin step Shadows left me to conclude that the Conquests (Rolling Thunder, Captain America, Jesse James 35 and 48...etc) we built at Kenny Adam's shop should have only a single step. Fact is, those boats were faster wgt/hp than the twin step Shadow/Chris Cats and I believe turned better. They handled best when we sealed off the inner step in the tunnel creating a non broken tunnel wall from bow to stern. This technique is called an air trap and is common in other forms of race boats, specifically hydroplanes. How and where to use them...I'll leave as a trade secret, but a good hull guy can figure it out....maybe.

All that having been said, Jerry Gilbreath, who I also respect greatly, felt that the Captain America boat lacked enough stern lift...due...he said to the lack of a second aft step. I thought it was a psychological reaction based on the "wisdom" of the time and we never really settled the issue conclusively. My helicopter vantage point showed no visible difference in attack angle between the two designs other than the single step seemed to accept trimming at a lower angle of attack without the speed loss due to the extra "scrubbing" from the second step.

One could conclude that no steps...or simple ground in 1/4" "slots like we used on the early tunnel boats to keep them from sucking down in the turns........ would work just as well as stepped sponsons...for top speed. As to the stepped monohulls, my belief is simple. A non step Sutphen held the kilo record until little over a year ago in the (allegedly) even playing field of Factory 2. Given whatever prop, laminate/mold edging techniques and engine refinements available to the current stepped record holders, I believe the Sutphen..or a Velocity could go at least as fast. However, That would require a major sponsorship "investment" by one or the other builders into a racing organization...... after all it's not what you can actually deliver but rather what your marketing guys say you can do...in today's "business plan" environment....or to put it more succinctly if you spend enough on ads your boat will get a LOT faster.

What did he say???????? He'll never get back on the air again!

..... Thank God.

T2x............ Never underestimating the power of simplicity

I believe the Velocity VR1 holds the Factory 1 Kilo now..right??

T2x you mentioned

" like the deadrise of the vee, especially forward. Deeper v hulls are inherently slower than shallower designs"

I understand this and it makes perfect sense to me. But can you explain why the Sutphen is so fast. It has a 26 degree deadrise and it seems to get mutch steeper as you go forward. Just curoius. It's one of my all time favorite boats.

Thanks Kirk

Re the Sutphen's speed........ The builder is traveling at 100 mph....even when at rest......

or the long constant section aft allows the boat to carry the bow and continually settle back on less wetted surface as speed increases........without a step....it's called the "Miracle of Hopatcong" and would be a lot more famous except Lourdes has a better PR firm....and more steps.

T2x:p

Speaking of steps...Shockwave has a few of them...new design...and still gets stuck to the water....

Who said that?......there he goes......... I got him by the hair....nope, he escaped...all I have is this dreadful little furry thing.


T2x...past my bedtime

Steve 1 is right, most steps are poorly designed. When I look at the steps in my boat and those on some of the others I wonder if they heard of a wind tunnel much less tested in one.

From Ocke Mannerfelt:
Most of the stepped hulls currently in production were originally designed as non-stepped V-hulls. Steps have often been added to these original designs as an afterthought, and then built into existing molds. This is not the case with the B-28. From the very beginning, the B-28's transverse steps were engineered as an integral part of the boats running surface and have been strategically placed to serve specific purposes and provide excellent balance. The first step sets the angle of attack of the hull, while the second step controls the waterflow to the aft section of the hull, which carries most of the boats load. The steps are also carefully shaped to introduce air into the water under the boat. The resulting air bubbles act as ball bearings, providing a faster, less resistant running surface. Planing over a bed of foaming water reduces friction, increases speed, and benefits fuel economy.

Steps or notches?
 

I think many of you are talking about notches in an otherwise straight bottom and calling them steps. In the attached picture notice that the steps change much like steps leading up a flight of stairs.

I disagree with the idea that steps only work on 30'+ boats. Although there are also other reasons my 22'8" boat runs so extremely well in rough or calm water (wings, straight strakes, speed rails, aerodynamic and hydrodynamic design), I doubt Ocke put the steps in because of his marketing department. I had and have seen many boats running on the last 18" and although they are fast they are on the edge of out of control and you can forget staying that way in rough water.

My boat runs 100 at the same angle of attack as at 70, calm or rough water, so I don't understand how the conclusion can be drawn that you have to go under 70 to make steps work. Maybe some time in a wind tunnel would help in finding the right placement, height, etc. to get it right.

Lets stop comparing bad steps that probably were designed by the marketing department or someone who did not fully design them, and consider do well designed steps make a difference. I believe yes and until I see a 23 ft. non-step boat that runs with mine in the sea or the wind tunnel I will rest my case.

AAARGHH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

T2x

Drawing on my vast offshore experience, gained simply by reading posts on this forum:D , I too have concluded that longer, heavier boats gain the most from steps. The cool marketing photos of boats running "aired out" clearly show the steps, but the steps are ineffective at this point. Heavier boats will be running on the steps and benefit from air introduction.

In the case of smaller/lighter boats, to some extent I think speed gains were made in stepped-version hulls by accident. The result of a stepped bottom hull is a shorter transom. With a shorter transom the outdrives are better able to leverage the hull out of the water, resulting in greater speed. Anyone agree?

I agree that in the case of poorly designed boats any gain is by accident, but once again we should be talking about well designed boats. I don't think the transom height is related as much as the angle of attack and the running surface while in the water. The reason for a photo out of the water is to illustrate the steps. Of course it has little to do with it once aired out, but in the batboat that is where the wings do the most in keeping the boat level in the air.

I would much rather be in the water with control and efficiency than loose on the last 18 inches of the boat.

...... after all it's not what you can actually deliver but rather what your marketing guys say you can do...in today's "business plan" environment....or to put it more succinctly if you spend enough on ads your boat will get a LOT faster.

T2x once again well said as usual. Obviously those who put so much pride into their ownership of the "over-rated" step concept in performance pleasure boats are gonna be in denial until the cows come home. I think the comment addressing putting a step on an already existing V design says a lot too...

Tom, though I believe with the Bat boat design the step probably does the trick in that configuration with wind tunnel testing etc. I don't however believe we're gonna see that design become the rage of the pleasure performance boat genre anytime soon due to it's impracticality and basic ugliness.

T2x made another realistic point when addressing the well intended but badly thought over comparison between a Sonic and the AT. You would be essentially saying without the steps they would run identical? As well as other similar sized stepped boats? They would all run identical? Or is there other differences to be thrown into the equation?...hmmmmmm

Another point of contention is in the rough stuff. It's hard for me to realistically imagine the benefits when the trim angles, tab settings, and horizontal/vertical g-forces are so consistently askew. Also theoretically speaking, you would have to believe with a little chop the V hull becomes just as aerated (okay maybe a tad less) as a stepped hull? Don't V hulls tend to run a little better on a lightly wind-chopped surface?...

Anyway, I guess one could sum it up by saying the differences between the two Corvettes is one is silver with cloth seats and the other is red with leather. I guess red with leather looks, seems, and is almost universally thought of as being.....faster?:confused:

Stepped bottom
 

I don't know what year or what brand this is, but it's got to be in the 20's, sitting at our lake waiting for it's turn in the restoration shop, kinda cool though.

2
 

xxxxxxx

3
 

xxxxxxx

I must disagree !
 

The AT / Sonic comparison was "well thought out". Both boats have the same published deadrise, 25 degrees, are within a couple of inches in actual length and with the new infusion process weigh about the same. But the AT will cruise at the same speeds with lower engine RPM with equal power.

Now if you still disagree, lets use a couple of other examples where the step did increase the speed/efficiency of the boat. Fromula 382 SR-1 to FasTech, Powerquest 380, Powerquest 340, Fountain 38 Fountain 35, 35 single step, 35 twin step (each faster than its predecessor), Cigarette Top Gun, Top Gun twin step.

Take any of the boats mentioned and with equal power the stepped version will be more efficient/faster than the non-step version.

Reckless288, I do understand your position on steps. Your boat is less than 30 feet, has a step and can be beaten by a non step boat with the same power.:D All in good fun. Steve Stepp does make a fast boat. He does not use steps, but he does lay'em up light, uses notches and pads.

Re: I must disagree !
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by h2owarrior
[B]Fromula 382 SR-1 to FasTech, Powerquest 380, Powerquest 340, Fountain 38 Fountain 35, 35 single step, 35 twin step (each faster than its predecessor), Cigarette Top Gun, Top Gun twin step.

Each of the boats listed above is also NEWER than their non-step predecessers and benefit from more up to date laminates, mold finishing, propeller development and engine tweaking. In addition all comparisons were conducted by marketing people who would be fired if the newer hulls showed no advantage....I repeat.... Caveat Emptor


Originally posted by Tom
"I would much rather be in the water with control and efficiency than loose on the last 18 inches of the boat."

Funny, the last time I flew over one of these babies in a race it was unable to stay in its own lane.......... My opinion only....The bat boat would be just as fast...without the steps.

T2x....a hindrance to nonsense.

We are talking wetted surface here. Harry Schoell built models for the Gentry Transatlantic project in the early 90's. He (we) discovered that there is an ideal angle for the planing surface to be presented to the water. It seems that there is a finite lift/wavemaking resistance ratio. I can't share the info. It is Harry's, but I have seen it work on many occasions. It REQUIRES a step to get both surfaces at the same angle. Before most of your times, Lindsay Lord said "The most significant development in planing hulls in the 20th century is the invention of the trimmable drive, rotating on its own axis, which can control the running attitude of a boat in various sea-state and load situations". T2x is right. If you can pry the nose up and lower the wetted surface, you go faster. If the step is out of the water, what good could it possibly do? Harry's designs are aimed toward a comfortable, dry ride, and certainly accomplish that mission. Bear in mind that probably 8 out of 10 performance boats were designed by people without proper training.

Hmmmmm.....The facts thicken. And H2o, my feelings on steps is irrelevant of my partially stepped boat. The step meant nothing to me when I bought it other than to be assured that in it's partialness, it wouldn't spin or roll out on me because I like to cut turn a lot. I just generally don't subscribe to the "...it makes ya go faster" concept. The only way to uniformly prove it would be to take an older, say 382, and shave it's hull down creating steps then compare. But oh wait! Then the hull would be lighter wouldn't it....Essentially I concur with the old versus new example and too many other considerations to credit all improvements on step design when in fact the negatives should be getting all the press. Sad part is when I move up out of the "under 30 boat" my options will be limited to another Sunsation (pretty good choice I think) or non-stepped boats that have other questionable aspects about them and simply don't pull my trigger in the sweet looks department...

Looks like if you step up to the 32 foot Sunsation you will get one of those stepped boats designed by the marketing department.:)

I agree with both Reckless and T2x if you are talking poorly designed steps. How do other boats choose step location, height, etc.? Flip a coin? Skater, arguably the best along with Buzzi and Mannerfelt, uses steps. Who else is in that league and what do they do or say about it? I already posted what Ocke said, where are the comments from the others.

Check out www.batboat.com. 28 ft. twin outboards, 126 mph. 0 - 60 in 4.6 seconds. Steps. Just ignorant and curious, does the 28 Skater have steps? What engine package, speed etc.? What would happen if they raced?

I am very interested in this topic and am not trying to bash anyone or call your boat ugly, etc. and really like the input by all so far, just trying to debate if well designed steps really work or not. The trouble is there are so many factors like weight, etc. as reckless has pointed out. Is there anyone other than Ocke testing in wind tunnels? We can give Heidlen? of Skater the benefit of the doubt based on experience alone, but again he uses steps.

attached image is 32 Sunsation from their website.

One of the pleasures of boating on Lake Winni are the old wood boats. I got a ride in this one and it was an awesome experience. Made you really grab on to the safety bar in turns. http://www.nhacbm.org/Obsession.htm

More like 95 out of 100......................



[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tom
Check out www.batboat.com. 28 ft. twin outboards, 126 mph. 0 - 60 in 4.6 seconds. Steps. Just ignorant and curious, does the 28 Skater have steps? What engine package, speed etc.? What would happen if they raced? [QUOTE]

.................The Bat boat would accidently run into the Skater.....in the first straightaway.

T2x....................enjoying the heck out of this

P.S. Speaking of wind tunnels.....I know a few sources of unlimited hot air;)

More like 98 out of 100 manufacturers.

I guess that means the batboat would smoke you since they never ran into anyone before and win all the time. Unless you mean it will hit you when you blow over when it gets rough while it laps you.

3 world champion titles
50 first place victories
11 wins in 12 races one season
twin 300hp outboards
28 ft long
126 MPH

Mine is 22'8" long 600 HP big block goes 100+ and 85 in 4 - 6 footers. No matter where I go almost everybody comes out of the restaurant or shop to see the boat and says it is the coolest thing they ever saw. I know I own one of the rarest and coolest boats in the world and I enjoy the heck out of it.

Name calling me or my boat with blatantly wrong statements does not help your credibility or make me feel any less secure about what I own and love to drive. I do have an average penis though.

Now back to the facts or are you afraid to admit them? What engine package on your 28? how fast in calm and 4 - 6 footers? Why does the maker of your boat use steps? I am really just curious, not looking for a pissing contest.

First off let me say I am not a "hull expert" by any means. I frequent this site and Hot Boat for fun and information. I'm running a 25' stepped Eliminator hull, stock 502/415[air cleaner upgrade] and a blueprinted prop. We GPS'ed the boat at 72mph with all the usual stuff on board. I question the under 30' part of steps coming into play. I like to compare the speed of other boats in my size range as I'm sure most of you do and I find my boat to be faster than most in a apples for apples comparison. Looking at the LOTO shootout the boat in the V1S1 class ran 67mph. Maybe T2x could shed a little light on this.

I don't know!!!!!!
 

I am not aware of any major weight reductions on any of the boats I mentioned when they went to steps. 382's have had published weights between 10,450lbs and 11,000 lbs ever since I can remember. What about the Top Gun versus Top Gun TS ?

If you have equal boats, same length, weight, power, drives, props, etc, yet one has a step, the step boat will be faster. I do agree that it needs to be a properly designed step. I use design loosely as fluid dynamics in an open enviroment is a very difficult thing to model. Imperical data (testing) is a must in this type design work. From there you can develop formulas etc. But it does take time and money.

Hey Reckless, I understand "partially stepped". Fully stepped boats do have to be driven differently and require a little more "driver Skill" than non or "partially stepped" boats.:D

I am sorry for that last comment. I could not resist :rolleyes: All in good fun. I really like the topic and the comments:cool:

What is a V1S1?


As to the other "issue", I wasn't suggesting that my boat would dare compete with a 50 time World Champion, 85 World Record Holding, 250 mph bat boat. Heavens no, but rather that the bat boats do have a little problem with staying in lanes........This is a primary complaint of other racers on the same course with them...and I have watched this myself from "The best seat in the house"...flying over them in a number of offshore races. The design is faster than a normal monohull....we agree on that point. It is also half the frontal area for the length...and it has wings. The ability in rough water is astounding.........but they do stuff with regularity, spin out in turns (Watch the APBA races ...sometimes two of them go around simultaneously), and are known for hellacious impact "body shots", the old Volvo boat in particular. But admittedly if you are building a pure performance craft......you have to overlook some idiosyncracies.

I am glad for you that gas station attendants and car hops love your winged wonder.......... This is truly why I'd buy a boat. Who cares that it docks at a 15 degree angle to the pier? The main thing is that you like your ride and drink Oxy Manyspin's coolaid regularly.

T2x ........remembering the Original Bat Boat..........and Robin

P.S. 126 mph is faster than a 28 Skater with twin 2.5's (110-120)

But it is also a little hard to believe.........even for good ol Aimless Multisteps

T2X, Could you please define "Oxy Manyspins coolaid" . I have an idea what it means, but want to be sure.:D

Hey Tom, I saw a commercial for something called Enzyte on TV that may be able to help the average length thing.:rolleyes: :D

[V1S1] 22'-26' V-bottoms with single stock engine.LOTO Shootout

No need for tv commercials. Just today I got 27 emails about penis size, 14 about larger breasts, 53 invites to porn sites, and two posts from somebody who thought acting like a big dick would make his bigger.:)

I was trying to find the post about Shock wave and what little furry thing? Sometimes T2x makes more sense then most realize. Is this turning into a Sutphen thread? It should, or the name should be changed to "How can a V bottom be so fast without any steps?" being a "Sport Pacer" owner I can relate to the speed and solid turning, something called "Rocker" How about it you Sutphen experts? T2x, etc. Do we have any Sutphen Experts out there? Romper stomper bomper boo, I think i see one.

Philip

BTW after the Sutphen I bought a 21' non step "v" bottom, a Linder Challenger, then a 21' non step Shadow, all 3 of these boats never knew they needed steps.

Tom.....ROTFLMAO:D :D

Philip....Exactly how does Sutphen fit into this discussion ? I have not seen a compettitive Sutphen since Ocean Spray back in 1996. And it kicked serious butt.

Philip and Rich, glad to see you two on the board. I haven't visited much recently as I've been pretty busy and the board has felt a bit too much like a love-in of late. Now, I see that you two are bringing it back to reality... :D

How are you guys? I hope the holiday season finds you both doing well.

If steps don't increase speed; why is it when all other things are equal: weight, horsepower, x-dimension, props, that no one in factory one & two is winning without them?

It is also a given that all step designs are not equal. I find it most interesting that Formula's 6 year old design is still running with the best when the weights are equal!

:D

From Skater
 

above quote is from an article referred to on Skater's website. http://www.skaterpowerboats.com/

Sounds remarkably like the quote earlier from Ocke. Next thing T2x will start calling him Lyin Dick (Peter Hledin - Peter Lyin - Lyin Dick for those who missed his puns on Ocke Mannerfelt). No offense meant to Peter, he is one of my heros too.

h2owarrior, i did try one of those pumps once, it was fun, but i don't think it made any difference. Viagra was a blast though, who cares how big it is when it won't quit. I've come to accept my penis size and my boat that maybe won't float yours.:)

Lets see - Skater, Mannerfelt, Formula, Cigarette, Fountain, and tons more vote for steps including "change the attitude" from Skater.

T2x, maybe Peter Hledin of Skater has a hidden meaning in there for you. It seems like your logic amounts to nothing but name calling. I'm pretty sure based on a quick look at the last 50 posts from you on various topics that "attitude" is your primary interest.

Looks remarkably like steps on that 28 Skater, are you sure you have one? I wonder if Hledin knows they are dangerous and don't work.;)

Now back to steps; Does anyone know why steps are forward, back, low, high, 5 steps, 2 steps, all over the place? Do they work in spite of bad design or only well designed ones? Reckless made some good points about wave chop having the same effect and was it T2x who mentioned how hard it must be to factor in all the changing factors in waves? Do steps only make a difference in flat water? Do they really cause more spinouts? Inquiring minds want to know.

there are a lot of hyper critical remarks towards the Batboats, and while some probably have seen and been lucky enough to ride in one, they are a blast , yet not everyones cup of tea. there are SO many boat builders with all the same step this step that, super duper go fast technology. but when you look at the amount of Horsepower and money spent to go fast, what is the real story, i certainly dont have a cool million to go 200 mph.
Like all we come to the board for both the comraderie of powerboats and and our passion, but all to often threads turn into a pissing contest, if all you have to say is negative stuff about one's ideal design, its quite simple, move on dont comment, dont buy the boat, dont bum a ride in one , etc. and Dont talk out of your arse, because thats what you will end up looking like in the eyes of many others that just lurk the boards.
This is not directed at anyone, just a opinion, i think ive earned it.