Fabio Buzzi is, indeed, one of the most gifted and talented design engineers extant. His ability to craft boats, engines, drives, and overall concepts are second to none. His fit and finish leave a little to be desired, but that is as much due to his active mind and endless stream of "projects" than to any fabricating issues on his part. I rank Peter Hledin above Fabio for pure speed and , of course cat design and construction. Fabio, Beard/Curtis and Linder, I submit are peers . I would rank Mike Peters below this group..........

Harry Schoell is an interesting addition in this equation. Certainly he deserves mention in here somewhere , but has had little Catamaran succcess as yet.

Buzzi is also ranked in a tie for first place in the sense of humor category...........parallel to the equally offbeat...Alan Brown.
Third place runner up is the very lovely Steve David.......but only when he tries to be serious.

T2x

T2x,
Where's your comment about Buzzi, I was really looking forward to it. I've heard a lot of the name, but the only one I've seen is a really ugly one at Dick Simon. OK, so somebody can say that about mine, but I don't know how anyone would call that Buzzy one beautiful. I'll take some more of that coolaid now and wait for the answer.:)

Wow that was fast, came out before I even asked!

Fabio used our Miami facility for boat preparation prior to the 85 Key West races it was his grey Iveco cat (with motors out of the red Iveco) the first time I had seen anti stuff planes, what a character this guy is!! The little cat had no cockpit space and the throttle box was on the tunnel.

Also a Master rule tactician example I was talking to him about the rules-eventuality and the diesel he was two steps ahead ---Like running the multi turbo diesels on gasoline and a 500 cubic inch two stroke should there be rule changes, He had it very well covered .

Anyway we took him and his crew to our secret site Simmons aircraft salvage in Medley they went crazy when they saw that place ,bought like truck loads of everything imaginable.

I got an Invite to go back to Italy with them and work on his first Super Boat in retrospect I should have went.

TTT...

Sorry, one of the few serious boat discussions going these days. Maybe it'll help generate more serious topics besides jokes of the day and what kind of truck should I buy...;)

Reckless:

Oh, I'm sure some step bottom boats were Jokes of the day on occasion. Did you hear the one about the Fountain Super Vee that went to New Jersey and became a flounder?

T2x

before this thread goes away from lack of interest instead of OSO Gods can anyone please explain how steps fell out of favor in the late fifties or early sixties? Did like the T2x joke.:)

T2x or somebody else, Who are Beard/Curtis, Harry Schoell and Mike Peters and what did they do? Where does Don Aranow fit in? I know Reggie thinks he is on top of the list, but where does he fit into the history of performance boats and what did he do?

Most of what I know about boats came from this thread and others on OSO. We may joke around a lot, but myself and probabaly many lurkers really appreciate any info we can learn from those of you that have been so involved.

Thanks,
Tom

Tom:

I'm bringing back..........the board horror......."Great Moments in Vee Bottom history"......... That should begin to answer some questions for you.

T2x

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.

And from an OSO history perspective it is great to see T2x had an attitude from the first post, assuming I am reading correctly that GREAT MOMENTS IN V BOTTOM HISTORY was your first post ever. Sense of humor, great knowledge, attitude, I just can't figure out how you ended up on the wrong end of the step debate.;) ;)

Beard was some of the genius behind Cougar, he also discovered the reverse three point’s (the cat version of the lawn dart) tendency to nose dive first hand.

Harry Schoell the ole “Master” is alive and well in Pompano Florida he is an amazing person/engineer/boat builder there is not enough space here to list his work.

:)

Tom:

Mike Peters is in the "Great moments in Cat History " post.

T2x

This has been a really fun day because of you guys. Didn't get **** done though. Anyone care to make a best of OSO list for our reading enjoyment?

Tom:

Take a few years off and read the Apache Post.

T2x

Tom it's refreshing to hear someone, especially one in such a different kind of boat, get into the discussion on the goods, bads, and uglies of the predominant hull designs meaning both V's and steps.
Too often folks fall in line and follow blindly just for the self-assurance that what they bought is the big cheese. Just look at some car owners sing the praises almost verbatum of what the manufacturers put out in ads and pay a hefty price in the their beliefs. To the man each owner honestly believes the hype mainly because they forked the money over to purchase it and want badly for it all to be true. After all, that's what advertising is all about isn't it....;)
Now this is not to say the newer boats aren't running faster and stronger but there's a lot of reasons that are impacting those results. At least that's my objective opinion and I own a partially stepped boat, and I've said this time and again that it had absolutely nothing to do with my purchase....
Anyway, I'm glad to hear your enthusiasm for learning and entertaining other perspectives. Otherwise you'd have to go back to reading about "OT...How big is your truck?" or "OT...what kind of toaster should I buy my wife" or ....well you get the point...
:cool:

Tx2 - IN YOUR OPINION!
Of the current/existing boat builders, who are the TRUE designers and WHY? And, are you brave enough to list the "wannabe's" who build boats but are clueless? Both Cats, Vee's and WHATEVERS!

Ship Wrecked it is quite simple there are very few real Boat builders out there only Boat Molders (our lower caste) also the ones I see building new boats the appearance given is they did not do or forgot the math work! Otherwise it would not look like such a monstrosity.
Some achieve speed with a ride akin to a plank of wood, Big deal!! The Math again!!

A well designed boat is dry, has a very soft ride (big points here the whole program) possess handling attributes and like it can turn! And finally Speed which is the easiest to achieve but few can even do that!

Until a few figure how to use even a Radio Shack calculator and understand the basics things will stay static!

Harry Schoell memories:

We take you back to 1968. I'm 14 at the time. Harry's brother was working at Magnum on 188th. street. Harry had recently designed the 19 feet Seabird model known as a Stiletto. Most of the racing Stilettos had V drives. At the same time we all were developing a provisional inboard class running at the Marine Stadium, mainly at OPC races, called inboard pleasure craft. These were Champs, S-18's, Anacapris, Donzi's converted checkmates, etc. Harry, Gene the Harmon Brothers (who built Bilt Rite seats that went in all the Donzi's then, magnums etc back then) Jimmy Preston and Pete VanKirk raced the Stilettos.

At the time Harry's shop was in Hallandale about 100 feet from where Crane Cams was located (Harvey Crane was running Crane then and while cranky, very generous to us). I was racing a Donzi 18' that year and met Harry. The Chisholm brothers owned Donzi at the time. GM was Roy Farmer and manufacturing mgr was Marvis Charmichael. They (Donzi) let me come down on weekends and mess with my boat. At the same time Holman Moody had a service facility on the Miami River that Keith Hazel ran. Keith was a heck of a guy and let me come down on weekends as well. He and Bill Sundman would help develop the 289 we were running at the time. On the Donzi, we tried a keel pad, notch transom, changed the X dimension, etc. No matter what we did, above 60 MPH mine was a chine walking SOB. So were Harry's Stilettos, only they could stay upright at 75 MPH while I was getting dunked about every other race at 60.
Harry and Gene Schoel were racing together. As I recall they were running a 426 Hemi and the boat was named Beep Beep.

After getting clobbered by Harry and a couple of other guys, OK, almost everybody, Dale Dull who owned the SK 441 Drambuie, along with the late Ed Bradfield of Profile flat bottom fame (or infamy would better define his life and death, Tanqueray etc. ) hired me to drive a new Checkmate they purpose built for the class. This checkmate was actually a pop off that Tuppin of Palm beach built. We got it derigged and made the conversion with a 351 Holman Moody completely built up. Boat was red metalflake and ran as "Rattler". Now we were winning, not just the B class (up to 351 CI but the C and D guys which went all the way to 500 CI)
As our class grew during 69 and 70 we had class meetings at Harry's shop. Here's where it got fun for a young lad. After the meetings, Harry would pull out his old time projector and play what were then known as "stag" films, today they'd be soft porn, heck really just R rated stuff. So now just think, we talked about and worked on our race boats, (Harry would help anyone, anytime) they drank beer, and we watched "girlie" moves. As a kid I just didn't think life got much better!

Here's where history repeats itself.....Then along comes an Offshore guy, but new to closed course racing. His name was Bill Sirois, yes that Bill Sirois. He has Mike Navaloni build an ultra light North American S-18 with one of Doug Janischs Black Widow 350 CI motors. Bill uses the Merc #3 speedmaster drives and right out of the box is running upper 80's and decimates the entire field. 2 years later the class is dead. Our meetings began not to be free wheeling discussions of boat design, changes, HP gains etc. but rather how to restrict the leader. Rules and more rules and then rules for the rules. Bill could get stuff from Carl Kiekhaefer that none of the rest of us could. Then again I was getting stuff from Holman Moody that was pretty tough to get as well.

Harry made it clear to all that innovation was key to this class growing, not bickering about holding anyone back. But he also said that everyone should have access to what everyone else was running.

Harry then went on to design a number of well known hulls, and never, in spite of his genuis, ever had much money that I'm aware of. 34 years have passed since then, but I'll never forget his generosity and inspiring me to go faster, and safer.

Here's where one questions family lineage. Harry Schoell and T2x look very much alike, I mean very much. I don't know if Harry cares for Cats (I could be wrong) and of course T2x, well you know........
Could then, T2x be the evil Cat reincarnation of Harry?

To this day I think Harry Schoel knows more about hydrodynamics and V hulls than most any person on the planet. That pulse drive ad you see on the OSO site, that's another of Harry's designs.

Sorry for the long read, I have fond memories of some really fine people in my racing life, who outside of our sport, to the unknowing are just everyday people going to work, or in some cases gone to Heaven. But these are people who in one way or another made possible the kind of boats you and I enjoy today.
Tip o the hat to Wynne, Schoell, Linder, Luhrs, Brownie, Allison, Ramos, Hledin etc.

Steve Good Reading thanks !

More on Harry one of his old disciples Mr. Jim Gardner (a dam fine boat builder) and myself were talking, this a long time ago, seems Harry was getting complaints about the fumes from his neighbors ,Anyway he makes a chemical “masking” for the resin and now has his shop smelling like a Bread Bakery.

This was long before anyone ever dreamed of it.

With all that Harry Schoell has done he should have be a right up there with Bill Gates
:)

Wow, that's some very cool background info.

Thanks

Re: Tom's repeated question of why steps came in, went out and came back in.

Look closely at the boats that first had steps and made them famous.....big, big, big, (for their day) very heavy, low power to weight (even with monster power) and ... stuck with the inboard propshaft inefficient prop angle and prop placement under the boat. In that era only one other set up could give competitive speed: the Hickman Sea Sled. A Sea Sled is a semi tunnel hull with surfacing props stuck out the bottom edge of the transom. (Sorry for the Sea Sled side trip now back to the point.) Even after Apel patented the three point hydro design, stepped hulls remainded competitive (in some classes) until motors able to give higher power to weight ratios were used in boats with new building techniques giving greater strength with less weight, further improving the power to weight ratios. The same thing happened across the board down to the tiniest outboards ... high power to weight - - - steps out - - - hydros in.

Now, if you were designing a less than racing-power-to-weight-ratio pleasure boat and wanted a little free speed where could you look? At racing boats with the same (but now obsolete for racing) ratios. This is where steps came back into vogue.

Fortunately for the builders the steps could be carried over to their marketing/race boats with no penalty, maybe an occaisional advantage getting over plane on an otherwise pig of a design and maybe an occaisional average speed increase with a little quicker lift off after dropping the whole bottom in the water ... three or four steps on an offshore Hyper Graphics tunnel ... marketing, marketing, marketing ...

Excellent reading Steve D. I could almost hear the soft music in the background as I was reading....:)

Steve:

If only I could get certain people to drink my "special" coolaid.

T2x

When I get stumped (happens more and more often, lately), I go to Harry Schoell for info. I have been in the boat biz for 52 years, and I have never seen Harry's equal for the overall technical picture. Unfortunately, he is on my level as a business shrewdie (not).

Brownie:

Goes to show you....."Lucky in love...Unlucky at business".....or something.

T2x

Mr. Offshore:

1. A lot of small businessmen are trying to eke out a living in today's economy.......That's part of the American Dream. Under no circumstances does that mean anything in terms of criticism or praise of a product...nor should it.

2. The Bat boat is unique.....as is the Hydrostream.....

3. I stand by my observations and statements...By the way, I remember Richard Granville well, and pegged him the first time I heard his spiel..........but his was not one of the boats I observed changing lanes.

4. No one was killed in a bat boat that I know of. For a Cigarette devotee to imply that is absolutely uncalled for.

5. It's okay that I am not a fan............. The design will live or die on its own merits....with or without me on board.

6. I will drive one........ but I will have to be alone in the boat,...or with a bat boat representative who doesn't speak English.( I also will not let salesmen "help" me in men's clothing stores.) Heck, I've driven everything from kneeldown hydros to full scale offshore cats..........why not........but if I have critical comments does that help your cause?

T2x......... agreeing to disagree

i heard that Richard Granville was fish food these days:eek:

Tom,

I logged onto the Step Bottom thread, Saw that Steve David decided to post some of his thoughts on the subject ( rather long) and that T2x and Brownie had also contributed, I went into my office, (really only a cubbyhole) set my desk phones to the voice mail, turned off the cell, closed the door, and sat back to read. Wow, this stuff should not be for free.

T2x, do you think you can get GJL to add his opinions? I am sure everyone would love to hear from him also.

Tom, Did you really go and read 50 of T2x’s posts? If you did you just got 25 years or so of boat racing in a few hours. Throw in Steve David and Brownie, and there is 100 combined years. Some of the people I saw lurking here in the past few days is very impressive.

ShipWrecked. Steve1 pretty much summed it up when he answered your question, The only thing he left out is, the air at the top of that list is very thin, there is only a hand full of men up there, one is named Steve Koss. Designer, tooler, laminator and builder. Whenever T2x talks about building that imaginary record-breaking Kilo setting, outboard Cat, the guy building it is Steve Koss.
Philip

T2X,

First and foremost you are invited to drive one of our boats any time you wish - by yourself or with a friend.

As for the quality of the boat before when Armada was building them, no one will agree with you more. That is why the seats came loose and the windshields were not up to par. One of the first calls I made when we started this venture was to George Lindner - to get the lowdown on what needed to be done to make the boats as safe as humanly possible. And the whole reason I am building the boats is because I bought a boat from Armada and was disgusted with the product they put out given the incredible design they had. I saw a product that I thought deserved someone who was going to do it right. And after our first full year on the APBA circuit, I think everyone will agree we do one heck of a job. Again, I invite you to try it for yourself. Anyone and everyone.

Chris Reindl

T2X,

First and foremost you are invited to drive one of our boats any time you wish - by yourself or with a friend.

As for the quality of the boat before when Armada was building them, no one will agree with you more. That is why the seats came loose and the windshields were not up to par. One of the first calls I made when we started this venture was to George Lindner - to get the lowdown on what needed to be done to make the boats as safe as humanly possible. And the whole reason I am building the boats is because I bought a boat from Armada and was disgusted with the product they put out given the incredible design they had. I saw a product that I thought deserved someone who was going to do it right. And after our first full year on the APBA circuit, I think everyone will agree we do one heck of a job. Again, I invite you to try it for yourself. Anyone and everyone.

Chris Reindl

Confidence...that is VERY important in ANY business. I am glad to see Reindl Powerboats stand up and put up the challenge!

I'm having a great time with it all! Gotta get something else done some time or my wife will throw me out.:)

Mark75H,
Thank you for noticing, I was starting to feel like a broken record. Ever since the start of this thread I have kept asking over and over why people hold the opinions that they do. Thank you for sharing yours.

I think OSO should do us all a favor and have a post listed first that has links to all the threads that we vote to be "must reads" That would help us newbies and lurkers to get a feel for the great store of knowledge available and it would benefit you experts by not having to answer the same lame questions from the next curious Tom that comes along.

I'm going to take a huge swig of coolaide on Saturday and take the batboat out from San Diego Bay. Anyone interested in a sip let me know. In order to be admitted to the cult you have to drink the stuff, reading the package and looking at the pictures doesn't count. Speaking of stuffing, somebody said that was a bad trait of the batboat, it was made to fly level both over and through the wave. Stuffing is the biggest rush of all.

Steve1,
Now we are in my territory:D , I taught many of the fortune 500 how to use the internet. Why are you knocking Harry Schoell after that great post by SteveDavid? Bill Gates is the evel copier that everyone *****es about in the boat world. His genious is to make a bad copy of somebody elses technology, claim he invented it and market it to the point that the actual inventor is forced out of business. Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't you be comparing Reggie to Bill Gates?;) I read a huge article with quotes from Reggie on Scream and Fly and couldn't believe it. He repeatedly said that nobody can produce boats that can keep up with his and APBA should make everyone race with his boats only. I'd like to try a batch of his coolaid, my penis would be 2 feet long and wrapped in gold chains.:)

Tom I would never do that I was only using Mr Gates as a wealth standard !!:D

I believe that Steve1 meant his comment in a GOOD way. Like it or not, Bill Gates has created (or promoted) something GREAT. I would not be using a computer if it wasn't for Windows!
He (BG) has made it so easy. Harry seems to be a genius "also", but he just doesn't know how to market himself, IF he did, we would be seeing his accomplishments everywhere. By the way, WHAT has e done lately?

Forget Reggie/Gates comparison
 

according to Reggies own website "Too bad he wasn't interested in computers. Bill Gates would be sweeping his floors." This from a guy with a failing little boat company, a strip mall in a third rate town and a rental unit in his garage. Last I checked Gates could buy out Reggie with the money he makes while taking a leak. The only one more delusional is George Bush thinking he ran a successful business with no stock scams and Dad's friend's were investing because of his business acumen.

Now that writer must have drowned in coolaid.

I know what he meant and I'm pretty sure Steve 1 knew what I meant. I was only joking.

Let's not go there with computers. The coolaid Gates makes is the finest in all the land. You actually believe that he made it easy.:D Women think squatting to pee is easy because they never tried just wipping it out. If market share had anything to do with anything we would all be driving Sea Rays and arguing about the latest innovation in beer can holders.

http://www.screamandflyoffshore.com/rf.htm
the link is the article about Reggie that is so unbelievable.

Re: Forget Reggie/Gates comparison
 

that is about the most true thing i have heard said on this board in a long time. tom, i guess we do have something in common!

Sorry I modified it since then by adding "Last I checked Gates could buy out Reggie with the money he makes while taking a leak." Didn't want you to miss it.

And here I was hoping what we had in common is that we really like each other and share our passion for boats together.;)

that last comment:D

yes tom we do share a passion for performance , just different ways of getting there:p

have a good night tom:)

one last thought........

maybe its time for a good old fashioned reggie bash:D

BTW how is his stock doing??????