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Originally posted by SABER28 yes tom we do share a passion for performance , just different ways of getting there:p |
You guys are killing me! I'm so impressed with the knowledge and trivia everyone can dig up when put to the test. Tom you seem to know more than you let on. I'm thinking that must be the case if one gets into the "BatBoat" versus something else, then claims ignorance about steps/V's.
Again, I state that posts like this are far more boat-intellectually challenging than the monotonous "OT" dribble that has infested this board lately. I remember back when I first joined in the fall of 2000 how stimulating the posts were compared to the sludge I now see. It feels good to be able to just read sometimes versus clicking on a post and going.....huh???? Who the ...k cares?! I've read the V bottom history (with comments) and the Cat history (though more in the read than respond mode) and those posts remain two of my all-time topics. Makes you think. Makes you challenge conventional wisdom. And maybe confirms all that you believed, bringing just a little sh%t eating grin to your face...And that's worth the time spent surfing this site...:cool: |
Know who built the first modern stepped v-bottom? Bob Hobbs, 1963, called "The Pistol". It was a 19' X 7 1/2' boat, powered by a 165 hp Mercruiser sterndrive with a Full-time shaft dyno in the driveline. Bob and Dick Cole brought it up to Donzi in 1966 when I hosted the Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers meeting. He was building a full time thrust meter to be installed in the near future. Bob designed lots of stepped boats in those days. He was quite brilliant, but quirky and difficult. (reminds me of someone on the board whose handle ends in "x")
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Brownie, What was the purpose of the full time shaft dyno on the driveline. To measure the hull-- that is to measure the hulls requirements to go a certain speed? Sort of like dynoing a hull.
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Rick,
I couldn't agree more. There should be some way of rating the posts or maybe have a section just for intelegent boat conversations. |
If you know the speed, thrust, weight, and horsepower, you know more than anyone else I know in the evaluation area. We always estimate (guess) at two or three (or four) of the these criteria. I don't wish to crowd the board with equations, but if you want to know, email me at "[email protected]", and I will share some of our Black Art.
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Originally posted by BROWNIE Know who built the first modern stepped v-bottom? Bob Hobbs, 1963, called "The Pistol". It was a 19' X 7 1/2' boat, powered by a 165 hp Mercruiser sterndrive with a Full-time shaft dyno in the driveline. Bob and Dick Cole brought it up to Donzi in 1966 when I hosted the Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers meeting. He was building a full time thrust meter to be installed in the near future. Bob designed lots of stepped boats in those days. He was quite brilliant, but quirky and difficult. (reminds me of someone on the board whose handle ends in "x") Okay........That's the tie breaker. Brownie has now surpassed Fabio...and is the undisputed champion of humor in the offshore world........ May I also add that "brilliant", "quirky" and "difficult" can also be used in describing Alan. Reminds me of his theme song...."Mrs. Brown, I'm trying to find my daughter". T2x P.S. Mr. Offshore: Cincy on Father's Day sounds good...maybe Reggie will be there and he can demonstrate his "Best throttling and Driving skills in the World". |
Originally posted by ShipWrecked Harry seems to be a genius "also", but he just doesn't know how to market himself, IF he did, we would be seeing his accomplishments everywhere. By the way, WHAT has e done lately? |
T2X and MrOffshore,
Father's Day race Cincinnati 2003 it is then. We will also be having a Celebrity we would be honored to have you race in, should you feel comfortable in the boat. Chris Reindl |
Originally posted by Reckless288 Tom you seem to know more than you let on. I'm thinking that must be the case if one gets into the "BatBoat" versus something else, then claims ignorance about steps/V's. When I was two years old my mother says she was in the basement doing laundry when water started coming through from the living room. I was filling the room with water from the tub so I could float my imaginary boat to grandma's. I ended up with lots of boats for the tub. When the tidy bowl man switched from a rowboat to a little red speedboat I was hooked. My father had a junky family boat and we went skiing every summer in Michigan. Somebody on lake Huron had a Monza and it was a very cool boat built in Florida wherever that is. It was a takeoff of a Donzi whatever that is. (i mean at the time) From 16 to 38 no boats, but for my birthday I saw a red 18ft classic donzi and bought it on a whim. First day out was the San Francisco fleet parade and I got swamped by a ferry boat. Next couple months I ventured further and further out in bigger and bigger waves till I could run in four footers at 63 mph. People said I was crazy but I didn't realize how close to the edge I was. I really got good at working the waves and believe I would have to go a lot faster in much bigger waves for the same thrill in a bigger boat. Had a friend with a bertram race boat that handled the waves like I couldn't believe. I wanted a bigger boat. Saw a 28 batboat at a show in Oakland and had a test ride, didn't even drive, but was totally blown away. blew by the Bertram in rough water like he was standing still. Flew to England to ride in the 24s since I thought they looked so cool. Told the guy he had to drive a lot faster to convince me and he barely did. Talked Ocke into letting me put in a 502. Armada built it and it took forever. During the wait I test rode (never drove anything) 32 Nordic and Warlock and found them boring compared to the batboat I was waiting for. Blew up the engine and drive after ten hours and put in new HP drive and 650 HP engine. Been out in it five times with the new engine, but every time whoever is there is so blown away and so am I. One guy took me in 4 footers at 72 in his 28 Shockwave Cat and told me my boat is too small, blah, blah, blah like everyone else never in it says. Took him in the same waves at 85 and he drinks Ocke's coolaid daily begging for another ride. I would really like to go in a Skater and find out what it is like since many say it is the best cat representative. Oh yeah, went in a 23? warlock cat that went $110+ and it wouldn't have a chance against me in rough water. innocently posted my enthusiasm on OSO and am attacked and accused of everything from blasphemy to stupidity. With this as my resume I'll admit ignorance, but I'm not stupid. Most of my posts are either attempts at comedy or trying to dig out more info. I really have no idea why my boat either intimidates those who never rode in one or blows away those who have. All I know is I love driving it and will take anyone who wants for a ride. I would also love to ride in somebody elses any boat. Ocke says it is the combination of steps, straight strakes, wings, speed rails, and aerodynamic shape and I tend to believe him. Nobody has offered any reason other than name calling as to why he is wrong and blasphemous. Experienced and stupid comes to mind when I hear that kind of thing. My latest take on steps: They change the angle of attack and reduce wetted surface therefore making the boat faster and quicker to plane, but only in flat water. If not engineered properly it may not work at all. Once you get into chop the waves do the same thing anyway. In calm water they probably will help you win even if they only make up for 1 MPH, so why not use them? One reason not to use them is that they MAY increase the odds of spinning out, but I've heard no reason other than name calling to justify the claim. Maybe it is because it breaks up the surface where the strake is cutting the water to make the turn and causes the back end to slip. Maybe the turbulence created by the step is both the reason for speed increase and lack of alleged strong grip in the turn. Are there no engineers doing wind tunnel, computer simulations, etc.? If people can get grants to study how a hummingbird flies, why can't a student study hydrodynamics of performance boats? Everything I know about boats both right and wrong I learned on OSO. |
Tom,
Thanks for editing your post. We all still need to get together in 2003 with T2x and his Skater. Take care |
Anyone who read my post before I edited it, please accept my apology for going WAY over the line and do not let any more of it into the thread. I sent an apology to the party I mentioned and hope we can all respect his feelings.
Sincerely, Tom |
Originally posted by T2x Tom: During the early OPC race years( 1960-80) horizontal steps(todays topic) were illegal on Factory vee hulls, so there was a curiosity around their speed potential (That's basically why George and I experimented with them in 1981). This rules logic dated back to the early race craft pictured above in this thread, and at the Antique Race events. Since they worked to some extent in speeding up Gar Wood, they were always considered a speed increasing appendage, or modification.....( in some cases they were actually added on to an existing hull). They undeniably do two things. (1)Create a break in the planing surface for better or worse and (2)introduce bubbles or voids in the area immediately aft of their placement (If not sufficiently ventilated to allow this, they actually reduce speed through drag and vacuum effects). My points, as you said, are based around these two phenomenon. (1) The speed increases, at best, are illusive and, at worst, non existent. (2) The loss of contact with the water surface and the introduction of air create an unacceptably slippery condition in turns, thereby contributing to spinouts and increasing the degree of difficulty in proceeding through corners. I thought this addressed the step spinout tendencies pretty clearly. However, let me add that it is not beyond the realm of possibility that properly designed and installed anti skid fins or surfaces coupled with a sane and realistic prop rotation on twin engine applications(spinning out) could decrease the loss of directional stability in turns created by steps. But,.......... again, why go through all of that just to wind up with the turning adhesion you had with non stepped bottoms in the first place? T2x.........................looking back fondly on Molinari's |
T2x I agree one look at the size of the rudder on the Buzzi RIBs confirms that.
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Very well written Tom and enlightening. I didn't read your unedited post so I hope it wasn't me you vented on.:confused:
If you haven't already, go back and read "Great Moments in V bottom History" before it slips away into oblivion again. There's tons of info, history and down right stubborness concerning steps vs V hulls. The spin-out/roll thing is addressed as well. Better fill a big bowl of popcorn though, it's rather lengthy... |
Originally posted by Tom If people can get grants to study how a hummingbird flies, why can't a student study hydrodynamics of performance boats? On the other hand various people have conducted many full scale tests with actual boats. The technique involves taping on wind directional indicator ribbons and some rudimentary aerial photos. All in all, this is probably a better technique than a static wind tunnel. I believe what frustrates many of the older more "experienced" contributers to this board is the constant re-invention of the wheel and "discoveries" of old wine in new bottles that we are faced with by today's manufacturers, many of whom were'nt around the last time their new "concept" crashed and burned on the race course. This morning I heard a DJ introduce a nice version of the tune "Love Hurts" by Joan Jett. He was corrected by his comrade who informed him that it was actually a cover of the song originally recorded by some other New Age group at a faster tempo about 10 years ago, and this "new version" was actually an "improvement". I shrugged my shoulders........... remembering the true original ..........recorded at the "new" tempo and much better........................by The Everly Brothers back in 1961 or so. The big difference with this topic is that, unlike a stupid misunderstanding about an old song......... ill advised hull modifications can hurt, maim, or worse......... kill you. Spinning out, while interesting to watch,.......... can break your neck. Stuffing without proper safety restraints can do the same. While safety canopies and restraints are much better now with each passing year, even Nascar doesn't advocate a car designed to bounce off the protective concrete walls as a valid way of keeping it on the race course. Any stuff or spinout should be avoided at ALL costs. You can lose control, hit someone else's boat, get hit by loose objects in your cockpit....or, in the worst case scenario, hyper extend your spine and separate it from your skull. This is called a Basel Skull fracture and is covered elsewhere in threads on the board........ It's a rapid deceleration phenomenon.....and it is what killed Mark Lavin......and damn near did the same to Bobby Saccenti....... cherished friends of mine. Not all criticism is about personal preferences....or prejudices. T2x |
T2X,
Well stated. Do you think the HANS Device could help, or do you think it would be more of a hindrence to the racers due to neck restrictions? We looked at them at the PRI Show in Indy last weekend and they brought up interesting conversation at our table. Chris |
The Hans device certainly would help..... The biggest obstacle will be racer comfort......and old habits......
The bigger problem has to do with the Pleasure/Poker Run crowd who can hardly be expected to wear items such as these...... Even though they, in many cases are going at equally or greater ballistic speeds than today's somewhat de-fanged raceboats. Armed only with a bikini and a bank account, my fear is that these are the most innocent potential victims of misplaced hull trends. Not necessarily the good ol' boy owners...... rather, the passengers who in many cases are just eager to go for an exciting days recreational jaunt....and are little more than flailing projectiles when things go horribly wrong at a buck and a quarter. T2x............on his sturdy, time worn soap box |
HANS device?
Chris + T2x,
Sorry to remind you again of my ignorance, but what is a HANS device? I won't go out without helmets, foam collars and lifelines, maybe HANS devices should become an old habit too. (1)Create a break in the planing surface for better or worse and (2)introduce bubbles or voids in the area immediately aft of their placement (If not sufficiently ventilated to allow this, they actually reduce speed through drag and vacuum effects). My points, as you said, are based around these two phenomenon. (1) The speed increases, at best, are illusive and, at worst, non existent. (2) The loss of contact with the water surface and the introduction of air create an unacceptably slippery condition in turns, thereby contributing to spinouts and increasing the degree of difficulty in proceeding through corners. I was going to ban myself for a week, but todays posts were so great I just had to give my compliments. I think any more attempts on my part to stuff it takes me from ignorant to stupid. I guess the article in Powerboat that remarked about stuffing the batboat lead me very astray. |
Hans stands for head and neck support. Nascar has been kicking around the idea of madating them for quite a while. The drivers say it restricts their ability to look around.
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Isn't the internet amazing!
Sadler took a moment to describe how Hutchens' device functions: "It's a device that straps around your waist, and straps around your chest, and it comes up your back and hooks to helmet," Sadler said. "And then it comes under you, and you sit on it and it hooks to your lap belt. It comes up under your butt and you sit on it, and it hooks to your lap belt." The nature of harness is much different than the HANS device, which uses a neck brace and tethers to hold the head in position upon impact. Hutchens' device holds the head and neck in place by utilizing the car's seat belts. "When you hit a wall in one of these racecars, the first thing your body does is go down in the seat," Sadler said. "You go down and then it throws your head forward. What this lap belt does, if you try to go down, it tightens up on the lap belt and pulls your head back. So there's no possible way your head can more forward." Sadler feels there is no comparison between the two. "(This device has) so much advantage to the HANS because the HANS has your shoulders and your head tied down so much, so you can't move under racing conditions. "I wore one in Happy Hour here at Rockingham. You can't even tell you have one on under racing conditions, and I really came in one time and tried to slam my head forward and it really locked in there like it's supposed to. You can move your head side to side all you want, so you have peripheral vision." "This is a huge step from where we were," Sadler continued. "The way they've got it hooked to the belt it can't come loose. It won't ride up, and can't come loose cause it's hooked to the lap belt." The HANS device is a semi-hard collar made of carbon fiber and Kevlar, and it is held onto the upper body by a harness worn by the driver. Two flexible tethers on the collar are attached to the helmet to prevent the head from snapping forward or to the side during a wreck. The device weighs approximately 1.5 pounds (0.68 kg). click this for Hutchins device |
Hey guys,
I've been using the HANS device in our Unlimited for 2 seasons now and can't say enough good about it's effectiveness. The newer style has quick release lanyards and you're out of it in virtually a second. The early styles were bulky with quite a contraption over your shoulders. That's not the case anymore. They only work with a 5 point restraint harness. The shoulder belts are what hold the HANS in place. Powerboat Magazine may have a couple of pictures of one in the next months issue. Even without an accident the restriction on fore to aft neck movement is reduced significantly. The post race day neck stress is virtually eliminated. Movement is adjusted by the length of the lanyards which also address side to side movement. When properly fitted, you have about 90 degress side to side vision and 2 inches of forward movement. The rear movement is restricted by the back of the device. It's carbon fiber and costs something between $1,200 and $1,600. There are a couple of different styles, from lay down, to semi reclining to NASCAR almost sitting up style. In an open cockpit boat with restraint systems they might still provide significant protection over the conventional neck collars. However when you're sitting in the open, (no canopy) restrained or not, you're still a sitting duck for hydraulic damage. When that wall of water comes over the deck and hits you head on, there is very little that will save you. The only death we've experienced in Unlimiteds in the past 21 years occurred in San Diego in 2000. My Colleague George Stratton lost his life in a canopied state of the art boat WITH a restraint system. In this instance, based on various expert opinions it was the strucutral failure of the canopy and resulting hydraulic implosion and facial pressure that took George. Since his accident, our canopies and framwork structures that support same have been changed. We learned a couple of things: #1. A canopy is not a canopy merely because it's lexan or some other plastic/composite. Texstar or equivalent is state of the art. #2. A canopy merely bolted to a deck is little more than a wind deflector. The canopy must be an integral part of an overall safety cage. #3. Restraint systems (seat belts) must be exceptionally snug about your body whence in a canopy. A human neck will stretch over 4 inches. Thus if your helmet to canopy clearance is less than 4 inches the resulting impact can be lethal. #4. Any deficiencies in the canopy, aside from mere optical distortion significantly reduces the integrity of the canopy. #5. A canopy with an opening has less strength than a solid canopy. The best have hatches that are integral to the canopy when closed. I welcome any of you to visit us at an Unlimited race next season and sit in our cockpit, check out the systems etc. BTW T2x, our Hydro, being neither a Vee or a Cat, we're ????? Man does that leave it wide open :) Then again, just to tick off my Friend T2x, we do have steps on our sponsons and undercarriage of the cockpit and the aft "shoes". I'm not certain we're running quicker, but I know it urinates T2x off, and that alone, is deeply satisfying ;) Good night Chet. |
Originally posted by SteveDavid I welcome any of you to visit us at an Unlimited race next season and sit in our cockpit, check out the systems etc. Can somebody drag Harry up to a keyboard to get his input on the step hull? We have a lot of the masters here, sure would be great to hear from someone that has been doing the step thing for so long. His design sure works well on the Active Thunder AVH, without a whole lot of weird handling issues. He is presently working with that company on the 28 AVH.:) Jim |
Originally posted by T2x The bigger problem has to do with the Pleasure/Poker Run crowd who can hardly be expected to wear items such as these...... Even though they, in many cases are going at equally or greater ballistic speeds than today's somewhat de-fanged raceboats. Armed only with a bikini and a bank account, my fear is that these are the most innocent potential victims of misplaced hull trends. Not necessarily the good ol' boy owners...... rather, the passengers who in many cases are just eager to go for an exciting days recreational jaunt....and are little more than flailing projectiles when things go horribly wrong at a buck and a quarter. T2x[/B] |
Tom,
As for the Batboats. The way they stuff is completely different to conventional boats. Going through a wave hardly slows the boat down and I have never heard of an instance when the boat takes a downward angle into the water, as conventional hulls do when they stuff. The constant level attitude of the Ocke Mannerfelt designed boats is main reason why they are so dominant in rough water and have been outlawed in almost every offshore racing class. Simple fact is they run much faster and handle better in rough water - that is what it was designed to do. Chris Reindl [email protected] |
Chris, Tom and others in canopies:
Should you wish to purchase a HANS device, they are made by Hubbard/Downing, inc. which is located at 5096 Peachtree Road, Atlanta GA 30341. The fellow to talk with is Ken Adams at 770-457-1046. Have fun, be safe. JAFO, good to hear from you, hope you're well and maybe we'll see you at the Miami show? We'll have the Black Thunder fueled and ready to take you and the Mrs. for a fun run. From what Bob Jenkins has said, we'll have an especially cool one for demo rides this year. Newest bottom and cockpit configuration. Steve |
T2
I fully agree with you on the Poker Run crowd. I have been a captain, a racer, and a builder, damn if I'll ever go on a poker run again after just one experience. It made parts of me srivel up and hide:D
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Steve,
Thanks for the info, and hope to see you at the Miami Show as well! Chris |
Steve David:
I love steps............... on Hydros. That's what makes them hydros. It is steps on top of steps for the sake of steps on vee hulls that I have an issue with. Your cockpit statements are right on the money and in lockstep with the Lavin Guidelines. Anyone wanting a copy of these guidelines please PM GJL on this website........ They could prevent you from becoming dead......prematurely. Belated Happy Hanukah and early Merry Christmas to my favorite Unlimited Driver...............whoever that is;) T2x |
T2x,
Thanks for the Happys and Merrys! :p |
Hull Design Origin's, etc...
For the record...Jean Claude Simon did not design the hulls that went under his deck designs, when in Hollywood, Florida. His "ribbed" deck designs on the 32' & 38' Cobra's, by Performer Boats, manufactured in Ft. Lauderdale & owned by Mr. Bill Wishnick...were placed atop exsisting 24 degree transom deadrise Aronow lineage hulls. Performer designed a second "race" deck shape, which Powerplay Marine started producing in 1988, when they "aquired" the 32' Cobra hull and deck molds. Simularly styled "ribbed"decks were also tooled & used atop another exsisting hull he called a "Coyote" 34RS & 38RS. This hull came from a "one-off" design hull called a "MSV". This tooling was sold to Jay Ross and Sonic Boats was born. Jay built the 34' & 38' just as they came out of the mold, along with an existing 21' funky looking outboard model. He later stretched the 38' deck to fit longer hulls. These hulls were 26 degrees transom deadrise. His warehouse manufacturing was in Ft. Lauderdale, then moved to Pompano for a number of years, then to Hollywood, where it has changed ownership a couple of times. Did/Does Sonic ever race on a national level? On another subject...Does anyone know the history of "Howard Pipkorn"(Hydrostream) & his relationship with Mark Hauptner of Palm Beach Gardens, fame? Another great designer in the Darris Allison era. Who of these bottom guru's, was first to use the pad/step in their boats? :eureka:
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Does anyone know the history of "Howard Pipkorn"(Hydrostream) By spring they will have a whole new line including an amazing race boat. www.hydrostream.com I don't recall him saying anything about steps though.;) |
Actually Darris Allison is Paul Allison's son..........Paul was the originator of the pad bottom.....I believe....... But! There was an unusual Vee hull, called a "Champ" I believe, that came out in Florida in the mid 60's... The other successful vee hull of that era from Florida was , of course the "Saber".......by a fellow named Critchfield. Both the Champs and Sabers were cut down versions of larger designs.
The first "Stream" I can recall was later......1969 or so. For the record, I owned one of the first pad Allisons......a 16 footer built in 1965. The first pad 13 foot Allison came out the same year. Technically all of the earlier Allisons....which were true flat bottoms...actually rode on a full width "pad"...... As to the Jean Claude Simon statement, you may be right..BUT! The "Beep Beep" had more forward entry deadrise than the Cigarettes...........On the other hand...the earlier Magnum 28's may have been the fore runners of the Cobras. Can't say with any degree of certainty because the hull manufacturers were ripping each other off in overdrive by then. T2x |
T2x the Coyote and the Big Cobra’s forefather was a shortened 44’ MSV (Bobby Saccentis race boat La Tortola also the “S” in MSV)
The 32’ cobra has the 29 Cary genes(more Aronow) also same hull as the 31’ Chris craft remember a boat called “Speedy Doris” :) |
cashbrain, what you have is a "Notch", NOT a step. The notch allows the drives to be mounted higher, producing less drag!
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Originally posted by Too Old I have nothing of substance to contribute to this thread. I just wanted to let those involved in this discussion know how much I've enjoyed the lesson. Thank you. I also have nothing material to contribute other than my constant questions, have greatly enjoyed the lessons, and Thank You especialy T2x, SteveDavid, Reckless288, buckknekkid, Steve 1, Reindl, and so many others also, for so much information and interesting discussion. Where are the other manufacturers on the board? I recall Phantom (I really like them) owner used to post. All the money spent on advertising you would think manufacturers would work OSO boards as a form of marketing and participating in the community. Tom |
Cashbrain: What shipwrecked said. I'm also assuming if we were looking at your boat from a side view, bow to left, sternt ot he right, we'd see the bottom essentially end towards the right, then go up a couple of inches and continue aft for another 12inches or so? Your actual running surface was the primary bottom before the notch. The "Notch" area is not a running surface per se, but like shipwreck said this allows for a higher X dimension. It also allows for "length as it appears to the sea" without adding drag. This somewhat accomplished what an extension box does and/or based on it's size, enhances the extension box attributes.
Champ boats, now there are some great memories! I had a Vee drive, forward only Champ hull in 1968 which I later traded as down payment on my 1969 Donzi 18'. She had white hull sides, powder blue trim and interior with the number B-57 on the side. It had a 327 CI Chevy with 8 Stromberg 97's and ran about 70 MPH. I believe the builder of Champ was Charles Gagliano?? A couple of them raced in the Inboard Pleasure Craft class (Funny boats was the commmon name for the class as a take off on Funny Cars). George Auriemma raced one (his son is the George Auriemma Jr., who races Offshores in a 27 or 28 Magnum out of the west coast of Florida. The sterndrive models had Volvo drives and handled well and were about 10% faster than a Donzi of the same length. My inboard version didn't turn worth a darn, it would just slide for what seemed forever. Being 14 years old and an absolute maritime genius (NOT) I put two skegs on the bottom like those used on Correct Crafts. Man it turned super until the skegs really grabbed at which point the boat thru me and my maritime genuis rear end out, again and again and again.... You may remember a great Horse Jockey named Billy Hardtack? He owned a Red Champ with a 225 Holman Moody, as did King Carmel, the Insurance "legend" in Miami. A stock 18' foot Donzi with a 225 HP Holman Moody would run 51-54 while the Champ would run close to 60 with identical power. They were probably 1/2 the freeboard of a Donzi, with a wider bottom at midships and a narrower transom, somewhat akin to an hour glass. There was a wide pad on the bottom, probably 18 inches that ran most of the centerline. Someone mentioned, I think it was Bat boat Tom, a Monza when he was a kid. In Miami, late 60's Monza was built or repped by Ken Elkind. Ken raced a bit with us in the Funny Boats in a 19' or so Monza. The Monza bottom was much akin to the Donzi and other Vees of the day, albeit a bit beamier, with 4 longitudinal strakes, no steps, (most had no pads), no beaks, no transom notch, some with a rounded keel, some with a true V. The departure from this design was both the Champ hull (built in Miami) and Mike Navalonnis S-18 design (built in Fort Lauderdale just north of the FL Airport). You know in recollecting those days, I realize why I wasn't in school much and thus why I was "disinvited" from such fine Institutions as Pine Crest prep, Mills Academy and Fern Hall. They had a thing about attendance and just didn't quite understand boats and young lads........... I should have listend to them and Mom, for alas, I am now a Friend to T2x. ;) Thank you for participating in this thread. The memories are awfully good, and thanks to the folks that turned fiberglass into kids dreams. |
Cashbrain, my Super Hawaii has a notched transome. It's nothced all the way out to the outer strake. Looks cool as the strake blends into the notch. The inner strake ends (I'm guessing here) 12' from the transome. No pad, no steps.
Steve, very cool post. We all are enjoying your and T2x's history lesson as well. Your first boat is a little cooler than mine.:cool: Mine ( actually Linda's, but that's why I was dating her) was a 15' trihull with a 50hp Merc. Of course when I got involved we had to upgrade to a 70hp. I still could only slollum(sp) by dropping a ski. |
Mark,
Your first boat would have whipped my butt. In 1961 at age 7, I had a wood lapstrake Cruisers Inc. with a 35 Johnson, every bit of 26 mph! Actually it was only 1/2 mine, it was called "Jeff's boat, 1/2 Steves". Jeff is my older brother.......Because we had to pay for our own gas, he didn't use it much. I used it quite alot, but then, I didn't fear siphoning gas out of Dad's Chris Craft like Jeff did :eek: See you soon Mark, Steve |
Originally posted by Steve 1 T2x the Coyote and the Big Cobra’s forefather was a shortened 44’ MSV (Bobby Saccentis race boat La Tortola also the “S” in MSV) The 32’ cobra has the 29 Cary genes(more Aronow) also same hull as the 31’ Chris craft remember a boat called “Speedy Doris” :) FYI to you "newbies"........... that same hull was used by Reggie Fountain for the first Excalibur Executioner...........which became the Fountain Executioner..........which became the Fountain 10 meter...... So if we follow the lineage above...... the 44 'MSV (Miller-Saccenti-V-a-r-e-s-e---?).......shrunk down and merged with the 29 Cary (step-child of the Magnum 28).........which begat the Cobra/Coyote.....and the Excalibur....both of which were said to have been "designed" by Jean Claude Simon........ from these came the Sonic.....(out of the Cobra/Coyote).......and the Fountain...(out of the Excalibur/Chris Craft). Consider that Saccenti went on to pioneer the Apache hulls and we clearly see the close relationships (inbreeding?) between many vee hulls on the offshore circuit today. T2x |
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