Thought some of you selling parties might be interested....
12-03-2002 | 08:20 PM
#12
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From: Monroe, LA
Originally posted by KaamaScarab30
You know, with all of the law enforcement officers on this board, you would THINK some of them would try to do something about this.
You know, with all of the law enforcement officers on this board, you would THINK some of them would try to do something about this.
This was not just a casual observation. I hoped some of the cops out there might want an easy case that could make their jurisdiction some five figure fine money. Can any of you give a good reason that your jurisdiction couldn't prosecute these guys??? I can't think of one.
12-03-2002 | 09:47 PM
#13
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From: Mason, Mi, USA
KaamaScarab30,
You are actually talking about a pretty complicated sting that crosses State lines. That is not something a Department is going to give approval for.
That is not to say it would not be worth doing. In Michigan, the Attorney General's office most likely would handle this type of complaint. I have a friend in the Office, and I will run it by him and see what he thinks.
The other option is the FBI. I have a couple of friends in the local office there as well. I'll do some checking with them as well.
Vern
You are actually talking about a pretty complicated sting that crosses State lines. That is not something a Department is going to give approval for.
That is not to say it would not be worth doing. In Michigan, the Attorney General's office most likely would handle this type of complaint. I have a friend in the Office, and I will run it by him and see what he thinks.
The other option is the FBI. I have a couple of friends in the local office there as well. I'll do some checking with them as well.
Vern
12-03-2002 | 11:02 PM
#16
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Posts: 4,367
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From: BRENTWOOD, TN
I had put the boat up for sale on boattrader.com and within a few days these other companies were comming out of the woodwork trying to get a listing;
boatersdream.com
ABLboats.com
dallasboats4sale.com
I don't remember getting phone calls, all these companies did was send emails
boatersdream.com
ABLboats.com
dallasboats4sale.com
I don't remember getting phone calls, all these companies did was send emails
12-04-2002 | 02:59 AM
#17
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From: Mason, Mi, USA
Well, bad news guys, I did some checking while at work tonight, and I don't think you can make a criminal case on these bozos. The reason is, you have to prove intent to defraud in these cases, and the simple defense is that the boat just didn't sell.
In order to prove that they intended to defraud you, you would have to show that they did nothing to attempt to sell your boat, and even then it would be a very weak case.
I'll do some more digging, but it is not looking good.
Vern
In order to prove that they intended to defraud you, you would have to show that they did nothing to attempt to sell your boat, and even then it would be a very weak case.
I'll do some more digging, but it is not looking good.
Vern
12-04-2002 | 07:32 AM
#18
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From: Deeee-troit!
Vern,
That's kind of what I was thinking - their "business" practices are at the least unethical, but I doubt they legally qualify as fraud.
Maybe being in the IT industry gave me a little more insight (or maybe I'm just an untrusting SOB), but their offer didn't pass the smell test.
Hmmm, list on Boattrader - which I know is stop number 1 for 99% of the people looking for a boat - for $20 or so, or list with a company I've never heard of for $100 or so. No thanks, I'll take my chances on Boattrader....
That's kind of what I was thinking - their "business" practices are at the least unethical, but I doubt they legally qualify as fraud.
Maybe being in the IT industry gave me a little more insight (or maybe I'm just an untrusting SOB), but their offer didn't pass the smell test.
Hmmm, list on Boattrader - which I know is stop number 1 for 99% of the people looking for a boat - for $20 or so, or list with a company I've never heard of for $100 or so. No thanks, I'll take my chances on Boattrader....
12-04-2002 | 09:20 AM
#19
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From: Monroe, LA
You have got to be kidding. Let me lay it out for you. (And you never cross a state line other than mailing the check.)
#1 -- Put an ad on BoatTrader.
#2 -- Wait for the call and list with your suspect. Ask how long it will take to list the boat. Verify that the 5 "Buyers" are on the line. Pay by check to make locating the suspect easier.
#3 -- Verify that they did not put the listed boat on the web site. (Give them a reasonable time after their date and then a little more time.)
#4 -- Make demand for return of the listing fee.
#5 -- Obtain affidavits from former customers of this pattern. (I would begin with the thread starter.) Include in the affidavit that the person is willing to testify in court to these facts (good for plea negotiations).
#6 -- Obtain your indictment or arrest warrant (as you prefer).
The point is to punish this guy and stop him, not put him in jail. The THREAT of jail is the key to getting fines and restitution.
- Restitution: maybe $1000.00 (+ cost of investigation)
- Fine to your jurisdiction: $10,000.00 (If you do it right).
- Attorney Fees the shmuck had to pay $10,000.00 (Conservatively)
- Feeling of stopping this guy and costing him $20,000+: PRICELESS
#1 -- Put an ad on BoatTrader.
#2 -- Wait for the call and list with your suspect. Ask how long it will take to list the boat. Verify that the 5 "Buyers" are on the line. Pay by check to make locating the suspect easier.
#3 -- Verify that they did not put the listed boat on the web site. (Give them a reasonable time after their date and then a little more time.)
#4 -- Make demand for return of the listing fee.
#5 -- Obtain affidavits from former customers of this pattern. (I would begin with the thread starter.) Include in the affidavit that the person is willing to testify in court to these facts (good for plea negotiations).
#6 -- Obtain your indictment or arrest warrant (as you prefer).
The point is to punish this guy and stop him, not put him in jail. The THREAT of jail is the key to getting fines and restitution.
- Restitution: maybe $1000.00 (+ cost of investigation)
- Fine to your jurisdiction: $10,000.00 (If you do it right).
- Attorney Fees the shmuck had to pay $10,000.00 (Conservatively)
- Feeling of stopping this guy and costing him $20,000+: PRICELESS
Last edited by KaamaScarab30; 12-04-2002 at 09:40 AM.
12-04-2002 | 12:02 PM
#20
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From: Mason, Mi, USA
KaamaScarab30,
Is there a contract that is signed when you list the boat detailing what you are getting by listing w/ them? Just 'cuz they don't post your boat on their website is proof that they defrauded you. They could very easily trot out 5 cronies who said they were interested in your boat, but backed out of the deal.
I'm certainly not saying what they are doing is right, and I have a little more digging to do, but as for as criminal prosecution it is not looking like a good bet.
The best defense is OSO, I base a lot on who I'm going to deal w/ based on feedback from the board. Enough bad press like this and no one will list their boat w/ these idiots.
Vern
Is there a contract that is signed when you list the boat detailing what you are getting by listing w/ them? Just 'cuz they don't post your boat on their website is proof that they defrauded you. They could very easily trot out 5 cronies who said they were interested in your boat, but backed out of the deal.
I'm certainly not saying what they are doing is right, and I have a little more digging to do, but as for as criminal prosecution it is not looking like a good bet.
The best defense is OSO, I base a lot on who I'm going to deal w/ based on feedback from the board. Enough bad press like this and no one will list their boat w/ these idiots.
Vern
