Steve 1

When are we going to wake up and start thinking about what is going on
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"going on" we are at War TOM just in case you have not noticed!! BTW most of it is traceable to Democrats.

Now with that said if I were a National Socialist Democrat/Liberal/Fifth columnist I would be quiet!

Your List is pretty factual for the racist Democrats.

I am still awaiting a Huge Apology from The Main and real Racists the Black Caucas, NAACP, the Democratic Party, Hilla Beast and so on.

You mentioned Israel you have a problem with them ??

Donzi38ZX

Neither, both present flaws in argument that are too vast to list as they both argue from a personal interest point of view. The fact is neither Tom, Steve, Moby, you or I can speak objectively about these events because none of us have the facts. In WWII Hitler spoke much propaganda as all governments do. The facts we know today lead all rational humans to the conclusion that his actions were wrong and needed to be stopped. Only time will tell us what history will show of these events. The argument that the US helped Hussein gas his people is utterly up surd. If I make a kitchen knife and even if I inform you it can kill someone, I am not responsible for a death when you choose to plunge that knife into another human, only you are.

The truth is we do not live in a direct democracy; we do not get to vote on every action our government takes. We do have the right to discuss and object however the media allows for disproportionate voice to be heard from those that are famous. And far too often that voice takes the form of ignorance. A great example is Hollywood's objection to animal testing while simultaneously supporting AIDS research. You cannot have one without the other. These issues are far to complex for most people to comprehend, the variables are endless. The fact that someone looks good in a bikini, can sing a song or can play a president on TV is not a qualification to deal with foreign policy.


back to boating as I'm sure this thread will be history in short order.

Steve 1

Cat and Tom I lived/Worked over there! Your credentials Please!!

So I am very aware of the situation in the middle-east traveling around that place for years, Dinned and had conversations with American Ambassadors, Royalty and the like, Forming my own opinions BTW very much in line with the current leadership.

Really not needing the Liberal press and their lackeys to think for me.


The window in my second floor glass cutting room gave me a clear view of the Basra Iraq area I even watched some bombing .Also I know of the nice Iraqis conduct in Occupied Kuwait some of my friends were resistance, with family slaughtered.


I have also been a world traveler and have seen the news from outside America and as a general rule try to post only facts.

You guys have a lot of nerve to post anything about war records considering that of your pseudo God which I posted already, Talk about hypocrites.

Now again I ask what is the problem with Israel?? Common experts I want to be enlightened.

RCM255

well said Donzi38
this thread has gotten way too heated

powerqrudy

Cat how are you.?? Today liberals are out there. The old JFK Democrats have many good points. I can easily see there point of view. The whole Picking on the rich is getting old. a Fireman making 45,000 and a Nurse making 45,000 is considered Rich by the Liberals standpoint. Living very consertive and no kids that is ok and It surely depends on what part of the nation we live in and the whole children factor. I realze that you live in TX and probbalky have a problem with BUSH.. Thats Fine But I am sure glad we have GB in there instead of GORE... Take care Cat always fun to Debate with you.

Allan4

Whoa.....looks like this thing has grown some legs since last night!!

Tom, you say that "the lives of our children as well as the lifestyle we are accustomed to are at stake". EXACTLY!!!!!!!! These radical loonies hate Americans, period. They want us dead. They want out children dead. They want our economy in ruins. They want our structures leveled. They want our heritage forgotten. THEY WANT OUR FREEDOM DESTROYED!!!! They base their lives upon their hatred for you and I. They burn our flags in public protests, they bomb our embassy's, they knock down our buildings for God's sake!!!!!!

There are more "9-11's" to come unless we stop these hate filled rulers. They are a great danger to humanity. We were apathetic and unrealistic in the 8 years prior to 9-11. It's fact, we screwed up. Who's fault is not an issue anymore, we all know how that unfolded. It is MUCH more risky to sit back and do nothing than to assume certain risks of war and act first this time, instead of acting second by cleaning up 16 square acres of WTC debris and bodies again. We are in a bad situation, and as someone intelligently stated above, no one wants us in this situation, it's a bad deal, but you can't run from controversy and sweep it under the rug like Clinton did, look where that got us. You can't just let these tyranists reak havoc world wide.....which is thier goal.

Think of this aweful potential reality........Imagine if these physcopaths get their hands on a nuke!!! Imagine if 9-11 included nuclear winter......MAN.......I just gave myself chills......

Furthermore, I do not believe this is about oil. If that were the case, Bush would call Sudamm and say, "Hey, we want all the oil that we need times 2, at "X" ammount of $$. In exchange, you can run rampant, build your bombs and try to obliterate the Middle East. The US won't stand in your way, we will not bother you at all. Do as you please, we want your oil and that is it."

What would Sadamm say to this......?? "ABSOLUTELY!!!!"

This is about trying to pulverize the evil on the globe, to be sure we can preserve freedom for all mankind. If you question our intentions, you need to read the history books and learn howmany countries we have salvaged, bailed out, rebuilt, protected and financed in the last 80 years in an effort to do just what we are trying to do here......preserve and establish democracy, freedom and mankind. Unfortunately, we are the only country on the globe that can defeat us, and with goofy bastards like Moby, that seems more and more realistic with each passing day.

GO USA!!!!!! Some of these fruits need to come back to reality....

powerqrudy

You know they say countries fold from inside. Also I do not see any LIberals!!!! and I mean Liberals Not good Democrats !! asking for a Tax increase.??? My frineds who work at FORD on the line and do over a 100 a year are no Democrats they realize what is it like to work for thier money and see what BS it is when they get their checks and see the money taken out for Taxes ...CRAZY

Tom

It is nice to see that so many are concerned with what is happening in the world right now. Considering that we are talking about weopons of mass destruction in the hands of pretty questionable people it can affect not only our way of life but escalate to affecting life itself. I agree Donzi 38 (and many others) have presented strong arguements and that is a great start. I do not agree with RCM255 as the debate has not gotten heated enough. We perhaps cannot solve the world problems, but if we acept that it is too complicated and do nothing we are leaving our future to the chance that those currently in charge have our best interest at heart and know what they are doing. Personally I don't feel they are smarter or more qualified than myself and all of us to make such decisions without all of our input.

Steve 1, it is great that you have direct experience in the middle east and other parts of the world. You probably have some great insight to share. Since you asked where I am coming from and specifically about Isreal let me please share my background as a point of reference as to why I say some of the things that I do. my main point is that we cannot just parrot what the media tells us and resort to name calling; we must raise the level of debate to honest sharing of how we feel, why we feel that way, and what we think should be done.

As an ex monk, I have spent 44 years in deep contemplation as well as extensive research into the similarities and differences in the major religions of the world. I have had deep debates with scholars, mystics, clergy, lay people, etc. from all of the five major faiths and have published software that compares the similarities in beliefs held on a wide range of topics from what God is to how we should act in a number of situations including practicing our faith, getting along with others, introspecting, peace, love, what direct experience of contacting God is like, etc. My bottom line conclusion is that if we knew more about the beliefs of others and honored tham instead of defining them by our ignorance of them we would find 99% in common and no need to kill, subjugate or convert them into agreement with our own belief. I would love to share my research, feelings or just sit with anyone in your own environment and learn more about your beliefs. As Donzi38 said so well, the current world situation is very complex; religous ignorance and intolerance is definately a major component.

Concurrent to religious study I also did extensive study of brain research, learning theory, consciousness research, and studies on how we interpret/create reality from the stimulus that reaches our minds. I have had the pleasure to be associated with some of the top minds in the field and ended up teaching "accelerated learning" theories to professors, school teachers, corporate trainers, management, students, workers, etc. My father was one of the pioneers in "individualized learning" and holds many documented records in taking students from one tested level to higher tested levels in the shortest period of time. Bottom line; everybody learns differently and enhansing the self esteem in the learner is the most important aspect of learning. The responsibility of learing is the teachers, not the students and failure to learn is not the fault of the learner. Although some of us are certified genious and some have limited capacity to learn for various physical reasons, most "normal" people have a very similar capacity to understand even extremely complex topics giving the right teaching methodology for that particular lerner.

Back to Isreal - I was privilidged to work with some of the most genious programmers in the world. They were extremely bright and well trained by the Isreali military intelligence. Most Isrealis I met were loving, passionate, concerned, forgiving, wonderful people who also feel that their own governmet has a major reponsibility in the current crisis they are facing. In association with them and previous to that association I either implimented or taught how to create internet infrastructure for many of the top organizations in the world. Clients included Visa, PeopleSoft, Network Associates, HP, Cisco, Baan, Ford, Nortel, Deloitte Consulting, KPMG, Lucent, Sage, Ericsson, Fidelity Investments, British Telecom, NSA, AT&T, Charles Schwab, Nokia, Siemens, EDS, and many more worldwide. Combined with my other interests this afforded me to have contacts and visits throughout the world. It also afforded me the time to visit Mosques, Churches, Temples, Universities, businesses, and neighborhoods throughout the world and really get to study the various cultures. As someone who approached people with love. respect, and a very sincere interest in understanding their culture and beliefs I was able to gain insight into many aspects of each society from sources as divergent as corporate executives, common workers, homeless, drug addicts, religious (from normal adherents to fanatics), non religious, etc. Unfortunately at the time I was not so interested in boating and am not blessed with a list of boaters.

Although I have never entered the political arena, I have a keen interest in the workings of the power structures of society and share a basic mistrust of all politicians and the press which is so often only presenting propaganda to sway public opinion. I have found that the same mistrust is common throughout the world. The only way to get as good of a picture as you can is to (with an open yet critical mind) gather as much information as we can from every source possible. I find the manipulation of public opinion both fascinating and frightening and it has gone on for as long as we humans have communicated, yet the stakes were never as high as they are today.

The current "Liberal press" myth (and all of the other associated name calling routines) is especially amazing since the logic of the statement is so amazingly twisted that it is inconceivable that thinking people would fall for it. My previous posts on this thread were an attempt to point out the absurdity of name calling by making what should have been obviously illogical statements similar to the other ones we so often hear. The format of debate has been manipulated by the supposed "Liberal Press" to get as many people as possible to fall into the unthinking trap of allowing pundits who seem so intelligent(and perhaps are, but nonetheless are using outdated learning theories to "teach" their point of view) to define the opposite view of their's by name calling definitions instead of actually finding out what the other side believes. For example I have never met a person who calls himself "Liberal" that says anyone making $45,000 is rich, yet statements like that are thrown out by non "Liberals" as facts about "Liberal" thinking. Why don't we all just define our own beliefs and give others the chance to define theirs? We might find there is so much in common between us that we just might find some answers to these extremely important issues facing us today.

I don't pretend to know the answers, but I share a tremendous concern that the very real and pressing danger that we all face needs to be resolved before it is too late. Can we please just share our feelings, respect and learn from those who do not share ours, and try to see if we can make a difference?

Allan4

Tom, that is perhaps the best constructed post I have read on this forum. There are things you have written that I disagree with, but that was one heck of a rundown. I find your information on learning curves quite educating! Well worded my friend.....

I am certainly not as well traveled and read as you, but I still feel we need to act aggresively to remain a free society. I am not so sure we are in a situation where we are trying to convert beleifs, I feel we are in survival mode. My concern and conviction is that the further we look, infact, will reveal more bad than it will good with respect to our countries enemies. We are talking about people who are practicing genecide......They are and have been torturing human lives on a Biblical scale. They will not change, and they want us all dead. And they are aggressively seeking nukes.....our most horrific nightmare. Imagine a nuclear fallout on our beloved soil....makes me sick to my stomach. It is my strong belief that this is a certainty unless we act to impeede this process. God Speed to our troops and leaders, although as you said Tom (and I agree), I find myself having a basic mistrust for the politicians and the press, some more than others ofcourse.......

Oh, one more thing, I feel that generally everyone seems to respect others opinions on OSO, and I find this thread no different. People can agree to disagree and still be passionate about their position. Just look at Cat and I......we are probably long lost twin brothers......(only about 30 year age difference!!)

Tom

Allan4,
Thank you for such a great compliment. I was afraid I was seeming arogant and am glad it was not percieved that way.

As regards the feeling that we must stop these terrorists and the countries that are such a huge danger, I agree whole heartedly. We need to do something NOW to turn the situation around.

Although I prefer to just hang out and talk about boating; I feel for myself and so many others that we also all need a chance to express our feelings about the world right now. Just like so many of us, I am often sick to my stomach when I think about the horrible way people are being treated.

My only real issue that I feel so very strongly about is that I can no longer stand for mis-characterizations of others because it is making things worse. Liberals are not demons any more than Conservatives. Although I don't agree with Orin Hatch from Utah in both his religious beliefs or some of his political beliefs; I so respect his way of working with those of opposite beliefs that I would vote for him if I lived there. Orin never resorts to name calling or defining the other side wrongly. He presents a very clear message about his own beliefs and I honor his passion for them. I think Paul Wellstone was very much the same and equally highly regarded by his peers.

In terms of the middle east issue, with over a billion people practicing a religion that most of us know so little about, it is wrong to characterize them all as horrible any more than it is to claim all Christians are like the fundamentalist nazis who do so much harm. There are Christian terrorists too, and left wing, right wing, etc. Maybe an OSO member that is a Muslim could enlighten us as to what most of them practice and belief. I don't think we will ever wipe them all out and if we could get along with most of them then maybe the good ones would help us sort out the bad ones.

I would love to hear some considered opinions from Tulsa Larry, Steve 1, Donzi 38, Catmando, and any others who want to express yourselves. Does Timuchin have any input? I don't know his beliefs, but doesn't he live there? This thread was very good for me because it made me decide I am going to get involved instead of just sitting on the sidelines watching it happen.

Now who wants to come out and go for a batboat ride while we still can.