APBA vs LLC My Opinion
 

After reviewing what I believe is very good information from emails, and personal phone calls from Mike A.,Charlie S., Fred H., Ed H., and other members of APBA including Offshore. It is my understanding that there is a dispute over payment made or not made to APBA by APBA-Offshore LLC. and that under the provisions of the license agreement entered into by both parties that any dispute is to be settled in binding arbitration. APBA has attempted to begin this process but is being refused by the LLC. It is also my understanding that while the LLC my have helped some in the Offshore category it has alienated some also. I came into this debate with no preconceived notions and set out to gather as much information as I could before I gave an opinion. Anyone that would like to contact me personally by email or PM. I will do my best to answer any question you have of me, but I suggest you do what I have done and contact the people involved directly as they can give you the information first hand.

Thank you for your time
Matthew Barrett

So what do they say will happen if LLC doesn't pay?

From my understanding there was an ambigious term in the contract that said ALL MONIES to APBA from LLC need to exceed $200K. LLC actually paid over $350K but almost $180K was for insurance which was not intended to be part of the $200 payment. I could be off a bit on my numbers.

Sound like if LLC paid the $30K deficiency then this all goes away.

If LLC doesn't pay, what is next? An injunction from APBA to have the LLC stop using thier name???

Someone needs to compromise and soon or both LLC and APBA will be harmed. I honestly don't think the LLC will loose any boats over this. They have proven themselves and gained a following. After all who cares about UIM?

Matthew,
Just so I know. When you say "LLC may have helped some in the Offshore category it has alienated more", im sure you have spoken to these 'alienators" to get the full picture right?Or was this what the Detroit people were telling you?
Think about this.IF I fire 5 of my employees because they are falling down on the job,that could mean I have 'alienated them"---if you only ask their side of the story then thats your answer.But getting rid of deadbeats is the only way for my business to survive.So have I aleinated them?Or just made a good business decision?
APBA and LLC have a split in thinknig right now, because they just aren't on the same page.You have to remember,hobby boat racing is all about making friends,keeping everyone happy,praying you will always have enough volunteers to keep things running and never about renowned success and fame.And never thinking beyond one racing season.Never planning for the future.
On the other hand a For-profit racing is all about reaching success,notable fame,world class identity,financial rewards and above all - planned out profits that will grow to the future.
If a person,company or entity refuses to fit in with this pro-business program,or harms the program in any way- Then yes,by all means it should be alienated.All part of good business.
Also,non-payment is the gripe coming from one side of this situation.However for some reason,you completeyl left out the other side of this story.

Mod,

I don't believe I left out anything as I said this is my opinion after reviewing all the information that was given to me by the above named persons. The LLC says that they don't owe anymore money to APBA for the 2002 season, APBA HQ says different hense a dispute has arrisen. The contract that was signed by both parties says that "ANY controversy, claim, or misunderstanding arising out of, or relating to this Agreement , including any alleged breach of, default, compliance with or interpretation of any terms or provisions of this agreement shall be settled by arbitration." The problem here is that Mike A. has told me that the LLC. doesn't recognize the power of Charlie Strang as Chairman of APBA even though he would be in the same position under the Sea-Tac plan. Under that plan "The Chairman shall be the exclusive authorized signatory on any contract that binds, obligates or otherwise makes liable APBA. The initial Chairman will be Charles Strang who will serve a term of 2 years." With him being the only person who name was written into any record his is the stongest position of power there is in this whole debate.

Thank you

Matthew

Ron,

APBA has said in their news releases exactly what they intend to do. I believe they are contacting Offshore clubs nation wide and are starting to write sanctions as there are some already at http://www.apba.org/cgi-bin/RaceSchedule.php . And from my understanding insurance payments were not included in the minimum amount due APBA.

Thanks
Matthew

So I guess the real question is... who's name will be on the Marathon race? I didn't see it on the schedule as being an APBA santioned race.

Will it be called an Offshore LLC race?

That I don't know, but I was told yesterday that Daytona did not count toward Hall of Champion points, which I'm assuming then it didn't count toward APBA High points either. If you ask APBA HQ the LLC is no longer authorized to use the APBA name. Of course that means that the racers are caught in limbo and have to figure out which direction to go on their own.

Thanks
Matthew

I'm suprized that detroit hasn't forced the LLC to stop using the APBA name and logo already. Really, that's about all they can do. Right?

LLC has it's own race sites, insurance and rule book. Change the name and go racing! Maybe I'm missing something but what is the LLC loosing other than a $200,000 yearly payment to Detroit??? Oh and Merc's support. Gee I wonder if the Vortec deal pissed them off at all.

What is the APBA gaining? The ability to hold their own offshore races using their (old?) rule book? Which none of the boats conform to any longer? Oh and they might gain some help from Mercury.

Does the great lakes series stay with Detroit or LLC? POPRA?

I can see both sides rather clearly and agree that a divorce is needed. May both sides enjoy their new found freedom. Or if freedom is too painfull, someone needs to give in...quickly

Obviouly there is much that we don't know, but the speculation is too interesting to pass up on.

If, LLC and APBA split, will racers need to pay the LLC for yealy dues? Were the dues paid in Key West given to Detroit? Oh man the details are were the real problems lay. And what will Detroit do? Run join sanctioned races with SBI? Make the Great Lakes the National races?

Will any racers leave the LLC? I think the LLC has proven that they can provide a level playing field. Which is apperently what racers want. NO CHEATERS~!

Mike A, you keep saying that this will all be worked out shortly, but what will the final picture look like? New name and Logo for the LLC? I guess this could take years and cost millions in the courts, but I don't think the racers will have the stomach for that. I would think that by Marathon, this should be straightened out one way or the other.

This is like a train wreck, a horrible sight to see, but you can't look away for a second.

Munch munch, ......... popcorn please.

RonP
I belive your the first one to say "who needs the UIM?" I respectivly disagree.
For the past 3 years LLC has been saying how important it is to be the "ONLY" recognized program, and I agree. Without APBA/UIM, LLC is just another bunch of initals. And MA is just another promoter.
I got no gripe with LLC but with MA wanting to control the world of offshore, I saw this coming a long time ago. And what about the guys in Pacific Offshore and OPBRA as well as Great Lakes. Were do they go??
Your right...this is a fuc*in train wreck and the ones who get hurt again are the racers and the fans. This whole deal sucks!!!!

Dan

ron p and dan b how right you are so true

Dan, Please splain for us...

Granted the UIM (sanction-recognition?) makes APBA somewhat different, but in who's eyes? I don't care? But that's just me.

What does the UIM do for US racers? It makes the speed runs...legal...quantifiable...real???

If the LLC looses this and the APBA Detroit keeps it, is this enough for racers to leave the LLC in favor of following the UIM authorized club???

I guess if the LLC thought the UIM was important enough, they would have paid their APBA bills as per the agreement.

I was told today that APBA decided to count Daytona because the racers didn't have enough notice of the LLC's contract being terminated. I'm not sure about future points though I would call Detroit to find out about that.

Thanks
Matthew

Ron P I do not know. So this is just a question. How important is support from Mercury? It does seem LLC has been putting a little distance between itself and Mercury lately. What do you guys think?:frog:

I think that Mercury is behind this whole thing. I think the Vortec deal really pissed them off and the Sterling deal was the last straw.

I also think the LLC could have paid the fees as per the signed license agreement and we wouldn't be here today.

I also don't see this being worked out and I highly doubt the APBA logo will be present in Marathon.

OK so what is the relationship between Mercury and GMC. Would not Mercury have some clout as a big customer of GMC motor division? Or are the numbers in GM s terms just to small. Remember at one time mercury sold a lot of Ford motors. If this is between Mercury and GMC I think it will not be good for the sport. In my uninformed opinion GMC is here only for the short term. Mercury was always here for the long term. I am not picking sides, just my observation. And if this does not get worked out, where will Mercury go with their support?

One only need to read the list of names on the board of directors to realize the problem...:rolleyes:

Baja,

Please clerify your post, here is a list of the BOD. Please explain the problem you or others have with each.

Chairman: Charles D. Strang
VP: Don Allen, Sr.
Members:
Michael Allweiss
Howard Anderson, Jr
Siegfried "Ziggy" Boettle
Ernie Dawe
Gary Garbrecht
Fred Hauenstein, Jr.
Robin Shane (Region Rep)
Mark Wheeler
Mike Wienandt (Category Rep)

Thanks
Matthew:confused:

Sorry, I don't want to comment further other than to say that some members have special interests outside of the APBA and have relationships with some influential people in other arenas.

?????????............ Seems to me that the "Conspiracy Theory" tactic failed for Hillary........and that dog won't hunt in this case either.

T2x

Understood. One man's theory is another man's proof...

Baja,

You say there is a problem with some of the members of the BOD, yet you won't say what. Until someone can give me any example of how any of their relationships outside of APBA it is all hearsay. If someone can provide proof that can be researched please let me know either by email, pm or post it here. I will post results with my findings.

Thanks
Matthew

Fred Hauenstein, Jr. is a top exec with Mercury.

Remember, APBA could have paid thier bills too.

Regardless of his agenda, and I am not a great supporter of MA. but I think it takes a great amount of work an dedication to develop a racing series such as LLC now has.Why would he take the risk of letting it get away from his control?

I guess the problem I always had is to see the Sport I loved try to be turned into a for profit business where the racers supply the profit.

Ron,

Yes he is, can you show me were anything he has ever done that didn't have APBA best interest in mind, if not then were he works has no bearing on this debate. As for APBA not paying their bills please show me what bills they haven't paid.

Thanks
Matthew:confused:

MMWALTERS, I heard a while back, say 3-4 years ago from a GM. executive that Mercs. purchaces were like 2% (or maybe it was 4% can't remember?, but pretty sure it was 2) of GM's engine business. As he put it they don't make any difference in the direction of GM's engine program. Maybe this has been coming for a while now?

My mistake, I meant the LLC could have paid thier bills to avoid all this mess.

MM. You hit the nail on the head. Racers are customers. Maybe the sport can grow, but at who's expense?

Grin, I'm sure that Fred always has APBA's best interest in mind. Breaking a contact with someone who wouldn't pay their bills as per an agreement seems like the obvious thing to do.

Jeff I had no idea the percentage of motors mercury purchased was that small. That explains why GMC would follow their own agenda without concern for mercury.Thanks

But they sure have helped APBA and its racers with over 50 years of support in all classes and categories..........................

IMO Fred Hauenstein is a gentleman, honest, deliberate, and a "real" boat racer at heart. He has had a long association with both Mercury and OMC, lost a brother to the sport he loves, and never makes a promise he can't keep...........................;)

T2x

Thanks for the clerification

Does anyone really think that any of us matters to GM???????

T2x...... getting a lot of mileage out of this one quote

No arguement here Rich. I have never had a "mercruiser built motor" always had them built from blocks we bought from Chevy and back in the day, Olds. But what about their outdrives? Bar none, the Speedmaster rules! Please don't think I have any side with this racing thing, I don't and won't,.......... over all of it for a few years now.

Understood......... But we can all agree that GM in no way has the racer's "best interest" at heart. This is about a spreadsheet somewhere...if the numbers say yes...do it.....if the numbers say no...don't....and numbers change.

Mercury/Mercruiser in good years and bad......yes numbers and no.....has been there regardless. Some people have short memories and many haven't been around long enough to have any memory at all.......

T2x

yep, Mercury is and always has been, in my mind, boat racing.

what if there was no Merc truck at the races anymore, I doubt GM would even bother?

T2X as I stated before. I think GMC is only in it for the short term. They want to promote their trucks. Next week they may have another marking strategy. Although mercury prices are sometimes absurd, they have been involved in racing for as long as I remember. Selling boat products is their only business.

Mercury used to sponser Prop,the tunnell racing circuit.
Mercyry made demands - the circuit said no,so Merc left.

2 years later there is an APBA tunnell group taking awwy Props race sites.And who is the sponser?You guessed it Mercury.

Anything sound familiar?

Yep, damned shame I tell ya!

Yep....Mercury backs winners.

T2x

I was Chairman of the Offshore Commission in 1967,8, & 9, when Merc came out with the 482 c.i. offshore motor. (427 was std. in those days) I refused it on the grounds that it was not available to the public. Next day I got a hand delivered letter from Ed Cole, then prez of GM, stating that they were stock engines (damned lie), so I let them in. They did, in fact, make them available in the end. Racing is a hobby for some of us, and a BUSINESS for others. Don't you forget it!