Boat Technology
 

Well with all the fighting, I thought I would throw out a couple of questions:

1. The old Cigs and Apaches, etc. are great Wave Crushers and I always thought the weight was part of the formula. With the new composites that are available now, will the same designs lose some of the Wave crushing ability ? Do they need to be longer with the reduced weight ?

The New Nor-tech 50's I have been on are great riding boats as well and I am sure their weight is part of the puzzle. So what would be the right length in todays market. I was not impressed with a couple of the new Vee bottoms I have been on in the last 2 months.

2. What is the new Magic number for a boat, I am doing low 90's high 80's but today it seems 100 MPH is the number. Going into the 2004 Poker Run season, it seems to me that 100 MPH is starting to be more of a standard instead of the Exclusive club.


Curious, I have been looking at Cats, Vees and these questions have came up so what is everyones opinion. I do not want to start a mine is better than yours or vee versus Cat just general discussion.


:D ;) :D

Scott

I follow with what you are saying. I believe that weight has alot to do with ride quality, strength and durability. If you are looking for the 100mph mark then sacrifices will have to be made. Most of the sacrifices will be made in your wallet. But others will be made in the handling and the ride quality. It just depends on what you want out of a boat.

You already own a nice riding boat. I would enjoy flying your boat more than I would enjoy a 100mph.

There are alot of quality products out there. It just depends on what you want.

No doubt the new resins, epoxies, and build techniques are going to lighten up the boats. The same or greater strength can be acheived with a lot less weight, which means high HP engines are going to push them faster.

There are lighter weight boats out there with incredible ride qualities- Active Thunders are not heavy boats by any means, and have a very soft, dry ride in rough water.

100 mph is no longer exclusive, but I question boats capable of these speeds in the hands of ordinary John Q. Public. I don't care what kind of boat it is, that is extremely fast in a vee or cat. You will no doubt see the insurance rates going through the roof for some customers on certain boats, however I had a VERY interesting conversation with my agent a few days ago.
They have actually DROPPED their rates on high dollar, high performance boats to customers of a certain profile-those with good financial ratings, and low to mid forties+ in age with no history of marine claims or accidents.

I would choose a 44 Skater or a 39-44 Scism. All light and handle the water very well. Basic engines (pair of 525's can have the 39 Scism in the 120's easy, and you can always upgrade later to 160, 180, ???.

[email protected] if you need any more information on either.

Chris Reindl

Scott, i had the pleasure of being in a poker run this past summer on a friends boat.The water was rather snotty.We were the 10th boat to leave and arrived at the first card stop in the 4th position.Of course it was not a race but......To make a long story short when the rough gets going you already own a 100 mph boat;)

that is insane 120 with 525s!!!!!!!!!

It Ain't The Weight
 

1. There are not that many V bottoms out there running at a legitimate 100 mph comfortably ( securely) in any kinda chop for more than a minute or two, a boat that will run 90+ is still the sh#t.

2. The longer the boat the better, but ya have to go to trips ( or over the top twins ) to get much speed. 50 ft boats are a whole different animal in terms of $ consumption and work. The best 50' to be on is somebody elses ;)

3. The secret to a good ride at speed is more of a trim and HP issue than a weight issue. If a boat only runs 85 trimed way out you can't run it that way in the rough. How fast a boat runs tucked in is a better gauge of how fast she'll run in big water. My experience has been that step bottoms demand less of the driver as they tend to have a built in "attack attitude" hopefully it's the right one :rolleyes: it kinda is what it is. A properly rigged straight V gives you options and if you're paying attention you can provide probably the best ride ft for ft however you gotta use all the boat you paid for not just the last 15 feet ! We weigh 2500lbs. less than a typical 41 Apache but at 80 + the ride is better and much more controlled cause i'm using the whole boat, the initial wave impacts are being taken well forward of my feet and being dispersed. A flopping bow will beat the crap outa ya and are more prone to stuffs.

4. As far as Cats go no contest they be FAST, I personally just don't enjoy running them as much ( hell I hate to sit down period ) and the big ones are a whole nother can a worms logistically.

Ain't it great to have choices !

Wickedwon -
I always enjoy reading your posts...the sobering reality that few others want to discuss..
Question -
Doesn't the CG and the whole "balance" issue of the boat impact the ride quality at higher speeds?
A very close freind of mine works at Nor-tech, and he has always said the in his opinion the 50' is balanced "just right" to fly level and crush through the bigger water.
He also thought that "War-Bird", a 50ft v with quad 6's and big power, which seems ass heavy too a novice like myself, is the one by which all others should be judged...
Any thoughts ?
Hans

" My experience has been that step bottoms demand less of the driver as they tend to have a built in "attack attitude" hopefully it's the right one it kinda is what it is."

LOL, It realy sucks when it's the wrong one!

I have to agree that the CG is the most important thing, I spent hours on that last year with the Apache to make sure we had it right. It flies slightly nose high but level and very predictable.

In running some of the other offerings, I noticed some rough rides and the steps are not changed no matter the config. Therefore they are not set correct in my opinion.

The cats change as well yet again no change in design.

I want to be able to enjoy the ride no matter if the boat is going through 2-3's or 5-8's.

Wickedwon, I just watched a tape of yours running and it is a nice set up. What is the weight wet ?

This is just food for thought here. I am not trying top pick a brand right or wrong.

Hi Scott -

Happy Holidays !

I know it goes into a different price category, but what about the bigger Magnums...60ft...63ft...with those huge diesels and suface drives, they must be sweet through all sorts of water, not quite the speeds you were talking about.....
Also, Nor-tech is building something really big, 75ft I think (Terry?)...
all the best,
Hans

Hans,

Long time no talk to, Happy Holidays to you and yours. The Magnums are nice but no the type I was thinking of, more along the lines of OT, Cig, Nor-Tech, Apache, etc.

Just my thoughts.

Give me a call sometime !

Scott

At the end of last season I rode in two boats within an hour in the same water. One was a 40' Fountain with triple 500hp the other was an old 38' alu.cougar cat. At any speed there was no comparison. The Fountain was like riding on a rock. the cat was riding on a cushion of air. Even the owner commented, Why have a v bottom?:drool:

There is something to be said for the cushion of air, I agree, but the Vee has more for the friendly hand out on the boat crowd. The 40 fountain does not have the ride of the others mentioned either in my opinion, but are fast.

Insurance rates:(

That and cabin space, but that's what hotels are for.

I'll take a cat over a Vee any day of the week (all thing being equal).

There's Something About A Good Beating......
 

Hans, War-Bird is a 22,000 to 25,000lb beast in a class I don't know a damn thing about. Common sense tells me that it doesn't do much flying but a whole lota CRUSHING ! With that much mass and HP it's always gonna make running hard in big water look easy. I do have a lot of respect for Nor-Tech products and their willingness to try anything ( where do they find those customers ? ) all be it occasionally " over the top" for the sake of it. Their more practical stuff seems to work very well.

Scott, I've had it on two different scales with a 600lb. discrepancy ! If I split the diff it weighs 12,500lbs. with all my junk and 300 gals. of fuel give or take or 10,200 dry and bare.

mmwalters, years ago Art Lilly, one of the wildest guys to grab the sticks, was getting out of the first Carlos & Charlies Skater, when I asked him what it was like, his response " its like a magic carpet ride". Eventually I was able to get in a 40' Skater, the ride was everything I'd heard but it just wasn't boating for me, even when I was running it I felt like I was just another passenger and running slow in a chop was wet and no fun. It's hard for me to explain but something's missing for me, I guess I'm just a masochist but some of those sensations, like the hard banking in a slower turn and the connected to the water feel are more important to me than just the number on the GPS.

"Scott, I've had it on two different scales with a 600lb. discrepancy ! If I split the diff it weighs 12,500lbs. with all my junk and 300 gals. of fuel give or take or 10,200 dry and bare. "

See with that kind of weight and power and balance we are talking wave crushing, now take 2000 lbs out and what will it do ?

That is the magical question to me.

Seems to me that the advantage of a heavier boat is when the seas are really rough and you just need to get home without racing anyone, you want to be able to get up the following morning and know that you didn't hurt your crew or yourself. No one ever talks about the really fast and light boats ride in relation to their sore bodies the next day, and no one ever will. Right Sean S? Just my .02 cents worth. :) NK

Someone ask Steve Nykamp how he feels tommorrow morning from his 75 mph 4-5 foot wave ride today. NK

Well here is my .02 whether or not that it's worth much. First off the magic wave crusher weight number seems to be 10,000+ Lbs anything under that seems to jump around not saying that it takes away from the ride but definitely gets a little more flighty.

Second the most important thing is the CG of the boat if it doesn't fly right then you might as well give it up whether it be nose heavy or ass heavy in the rough you can't stay on the gas or you gonna get wet, go swimming, or get hurt.

Third is the speed I agree with Too Old as how often are you going to be running over 100. Lets face it at 100 there's a whole lot of things going on at once. I always describe it like driving in a constant earthquake and not a small temblor I am talking 5.0+ on the Richter scale which is a pretty good shake. And alot of people that say they have been over 100 or close to a 100 when they get in a boat that actually does it usually have to do a laundry check at the dock when they get back or find a garbage can to huck in.

Steps well that subject is wide open personally I am not a big fan but you have to have them to keep up with the Jones. To step or not to step that is the question? But with steps usually comes more flat surface on the bottom of the boat which takes away from ride but does give you speed.

Now the next question and this is not my area of expertise but I have been in enough to know is do you aerate or ventilate the bottom or both.

With all that being said I still believe if you set it up and balance it correctly you can still achieve both with out making a lot of sacrifices.

Also there's no replacement for displacement. But for all the displacement you take away you should replace it with length so it then becomes a spanning tool instead of a crushing tool. I truly believe though that if a 41'-43' Apache - Cig style boat is set up properly with the same hp as for instance a 42' OL or 43' NorTech out in 4'-6' seas the Apache - Cig boat will give it one hell of a run for its money if not edge it out. No disrespect to either boats as they are fabulous pieces and I have run both many times. I just think the narrow beam boat is the way to go.

Sean Stinson

I would think that current owners of step bottom Cigarettes could shed some light as to whether their boats ride as well as the old non-step hulls which are also heavier than the current Cigs. That should say something about whether technology can overcome the need for a heavy boat in order to get a wave crushing ride. I for one would rather be riding on top of the waves as opposed to going through them.

I agree , one can not always run over 100mph. But a boat that will run over 100 does have an 85mph cruise speed. I don't get bored running 85mph all day.:D
Vs or cat it's all good and there is room for everybody.

I have run the stepped Cigs and yes it still has the ride but as I said it was definitely alot more flighty but it weighed 8600 Lbs with fuel in it and ran 91 on its best day in race trim. But I spent alot of time balancing it also you just had to watch it in the turns but that doesn't pertain here because this is more about pleasure boating and not racing.

Sean

My best friend owns a cat and we run together a lot. I think my V rides better, Its easier to rack, a LOT easier to trailer. and easier to get into a dock. Not to mention I have a great cabin. If all you want is a poker run rocket ship than a cat is probably the way to go, but I use mine as a bop around party boat, and I can't imagine a better boat for me.

I would rather have a boat that runs 75-80 in comfort. To me a 35cafe or 38 top gun would be the perfect boat. You can run 75-80 and sleep at any port in style. 35 sonic also gives you this option. Trust me, I would love to run over a 100, I just don't think I could afford the repair bills!!!! Just my .02

Stinson Knows Of What He Speaks
 

My experiences would also reflect what sean has pointed out, even slight increases in beam do dramatically affect the ride in the rough, long and lean vs. short and fat wins everytime. The 41-43 ft. length continues to have a little magic when it comes to the spanning waves / Hp to push it ratio. I've had both and the difference between a REAL 38 and a REAL 41 is surprising when the waves exceed a REAL 4 ft.
And finally, whenever we run against the new faster bottom designs in the rough and all the boats are paying their dues, we do seem to be able to more than just hold our own with a better than average score in the SPEED x BEATING x PUCKER FACTOR equation :D

BEATING
 

Morning everone, the only pain I have today is the wallet pain I will be feeling when I purchase a 41 this spring. Thanks Parn, I was extremly impressed yesterday. I have heard for years that the 41 foot range is a perfect combo for ruff water and I finally got to find that out yesterday first hand. It's often ruff on Lake Michigan so long and heavy is all good around here.

Wicked i am with you on that one my friend. Kick it up to 4-6 foot seas and I will take the 10,000 - 13,000 lb wave crusher and spanning narrow boat everytime. And balance it so it will fly and the equation is near complete. Add power and you have an awesome piece. I will put that 100 - 110 mph boat up against pretty much anything in its class anytime.

PS I tried to find you in KW but just kept crossing paths with you at different times.

Sean

I know of 2 boats brands that can run 100 mph plus with small power. I know they can both run in seas or calm conditions. cb

..... and they are ???

That's a trick question coming from you since you know the answer. My father said "asking a question you know the answer to is the best question to ask". cb

Wow- Great thread
 

You can tell the different schools of thought here: The 41+ ft Deep V crowd ( w/ and w/o steps) and the Cat crowd.

I come from the Automotive World where Front Wheel Drive took over in the 1980's and now 20 years later you see Rear Wheel Drive making a comeback.

I will refer everyone to Poowerboat magazine a couple issues back where they had about ten boats that did 100+mph. Now half of them were river boats- smaller single engine jobs. But, there were two big deep V's a Donzi 38ZR and a Cig Top Gun. Neither of them had wild power, both had natural aspirated motors around 750 hp each.

I also saw a Nortech 36 Cat w/ twin 750's that did 117+ at a boat show this fall. All of these boats are around $ 400 k, and I think are capable of running hard in big seas. Let's face it, who is going to run 100+ in 5-6 footers for pleasure? Are you really going to put yourself and friends/family in that kind of danger?

I hope not, I would rather not read about an OSO'er stuffing and taking others with him/her.

My .02$

Wannabe in Motor City

The ever wise CB has spoken and it goes back to the spanning tool equation. And yes his boat will run in any conditions and quite fast at that. Merry Christmas Craig hope to see you soon.

Sean & Terra

Cmon Craig !!!!!!
 

We all know what the one brand your thinking is ... but whats the second ... Hhhhmmmmmmm ...... ?????

JM:D

Thinking or fact? That's the one. The other???? you know. Need a hint? cb

I need a hint .......

Only one. Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. cb

Super Hawaii ?????:D

Comic book character???????? That's it. Runs in a red tight suit. I had to through you a little curve. Web, movie. cb