1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

Has anyone here heard of Steve Morris of Steve Morris Racing Engines? I've checked his site out and this guy has a list of pump gas motors that use a single 850 carb and a procharger setup. In the Big Block Chevy line he has 5 motors all 572 cid, which make like 1000, 1200 1400, 1500 and 1600 HP, all on 93 octane PUMP GAS!! According to Procharger's website, he recently did a 580cid w/ a single 850 Holley, 8.0 compression, Procharger F-2 (automotive type) blower, and about 28lbs of boost, and made 1685 HP at 6750 RPM!! ON 93 OCTANE!
Apparently, he was an engine builder for Dick Maskin (the co-founder of Dart Machinery) and built motors for a bunch of successful NHRA Pro-Stock teams. (Definitely not your run-of-the-mill shade-tree mechanic!)
I e-mailed him a few weeks ago to ask him if he could sell me a manifold and he responded the next day and told me to just simply gasket-match my manifold because thats all he does. He uses out of the box Dart Manifolds and Dart CNC heads on his 572's. He seems like a decent fellow, because he could have probably sold me a manifold and heads at that time but just gave me some free advice instead.
Oh, the best part, his fully assembled and dyno tested 1600 hp 572 goes out the door for $29,900.00! In my view, that's cheap for that kind of power.
I know he's a car guy, but hell, if he can make that kind of power on pump gas, somebody outta talk him into doing some marinized versions of those motors. or maybe a top-end package? After all, it would be nice if more of us could afford 1000++, wouldn't it?

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

You can make that kind of power on the dyno with 93 octane, but it won't live in a marine application. Ask him to hold it at 6000 rpm for 2 minutes.....he'll be picking up pistons out of the oil pan if he does ;)

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

I just built a drive for a 25' H2x Baja, 600" Procharged motor from Steve. It made a conservative 966hp at 5500rpm on the dyno.. Boat has seen around 90 so far at part throttle, as I have been told.. Droooollllllll!!!
So yes Steve does boat motors..

Dick

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

Wesco has built several M5 procharger motors in that HP range and I've seen the dyno sheets and they havent failed yet....Morris has a great reputation on the strip.

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

A motor like this can still be run successfully in a "lake racer" marine application. If the driver wants to pretend he is an offshore racer and run WOT for 10 min blasts there will likely be problems. For the average weekend lake race a 25' cat with that motor will smoke the other guy so bad in 10 - 15 seconds of WOT the race will be over!! :drink:

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

that is what i was impressed with, 1600 HP out of 850cfm...

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

I don't see it.

First getting 28 lbs of boost with 8:1 compression on 93 & not detonating? He must have a hell of an intercooler to keep the air charge cool enough.

Getting 1600 hp thru a 850cfm? I find this hard to believe because of the amount air flow & the amount of fuel that would be needed.

I know Tomcat will read this & am interested in hearing his comments.

If anyone remembers Rock-it-man he is trying to get big HP. Not sure what he has $pent on motor, blowers, & other stuff but he has had hell trying to keep a motor & blower together to get a 26' eliminator daytona to 150MPH.

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

I wasn't advocating using a drag race setup w/ 28lbs of boost in an offshore race type setup. BUT, if this guy can deliver those numbers (and he can - I've seem him make 1350++ on the dyno during an ESPN2 show with what appeared to be an iron-headed motor!) then I believe there is some serious potential here. If memory serves, Dick Maskin not only started Dart but he pioneered a very successful crate/spec-motor program for a number of Pro-Stock teams, so he obviously ran a widely respected engine building business.
BTW:I know the difference between a auto drag race setup and a marine application since I've personally built motors for both (as well as drag outboards - Johnson 3.0 and Merc 2.5)
Theres nothing wrong with using drag race technology - after all, Sterling has just recently demonstrated the power potentiial of the PSI screw-type in offshore setups, when in fact old drag racers like myself knew the Lysholm type PSI blower was a real animal when the NHRA banned it in Top Fuel over ten years ago (beacuase it made too much power!!).
I too would like to see what Tomcat thinks about all this because I think he is someone who speaks of things he has personal knowledge of.
FYI: I own a 2600 American Offshore and I prefer the kilo run kinda thing as opposed to running round in nasty water all day myself.
I also believe that there are a lot of people out there that are in for a rude awakening from the "centrifugal contingent". I personally know of a few where I live...

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

Yea,
The pump gas thing is pretty unbelievable!! Two 850's on a tunnel ram would also make more sense. Notice on his website he also lists a Scat Crank and Eagle Rods on that motor. I guess I shouldn't sweat using these parts in my wimpy 598 NA motor!!

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

Just reread this. I had called & questioned procharger about a year ago on a statement they had on their web site questioning the "facts" they were stating. Answer I got back was "Fact" listed was what one of their customer had told them but they did not know for it to be true or not.

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

I don't know much about the Prochargers, but I'm having a hard time believing this. 28lbs of boost on 93 pump gas. My engine is 9 to 1, and I couldn't get past 15 lb of boost on 94 pump gas with NOS booster.

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

Oh yee of little faith!! At least he has a dyno. which is more than you can say for some of the big marine shops that are selling big cube, big dollar "1000+ HP" motors based on guesstimated (and inflated) Hp ratings.
And yeah, Wette, I'm almost staring to feel good about my Eagle internals too!!

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

The thing that impressed me more than anything was that he can tune an 850 Holley to make that kind of power. The airflow thing I can understand, because I can only guess that an 850 under 20+ lbs of boost must flow like 1500+CFM. What I don't get is how the hell do you get the fuel flow to match! He must be running an alky calibrated carb!
I know only too well because I had run a long thread last year about my woes and trials with jetting my Holley 850 P/Charger setup and it was only with Tomcat's (and Turbojack and a few other members) help that I was able to figure out the problem, so I have nuff respect for the man.

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

A thousand horse is easy, with almost 600 inches, 1600 seems to be a little more difficult. If it's true, it's VERY impressive. He's doing something right.

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

GPM: I know. I noticed that there were no pictures of the intercoolers on his site, but I've seen a pic of one of Procharger's 2000HP-rated Air to Water inter-coolers and the thing is as big as a house! It was in an LS1 Trans Am that is running 7.94 secs in the 1/4 mile. They had to remove the whole right seat to fit it in the car!! NOT a practical way to keep inlet temps down, in my view.
The other thing is, he 's using 34 deg's of timing advance!
I say that we should introduce this man to Tom Robinson and see what they come up with..
If my memory is correct, Tom and Dean Nickerson have made like 950 HP on Dean's GM -iron-headed 496, so I would say at least 1200HP is do-able on a Dart 350CNC headed 572.

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

I wonder what RPM that power is made at? The heads are listed as 355 Dart Pro 1's which is almost as unbelievable as the carb. Those are great heads, but for that kind of power something like custom ported big chiefs comes to mind. All the talk about the thin decks on the Pro 1's causing head gasket problems makes me wonder how he does it. Again I feel pretty good about my 355 Pro 1's holding up on my NA motor after seeing these beasts!! :rolleyes:

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

1600 HP + Marine environment + 1st really good race =

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

The Heck With All The Claims Lets See One In A Boat On The Water That Is The True Dyno

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

http://www.procharger.com/multimedia.shtml

watch the interview with steve and he says the most he can make is about 1050 out of pump gas and a single carb....

plus the tech at procharger felt that getting that number out of a f-2 would be difficult with any fuel through a single blow through carb..... more likely to get that number in that setup up would be a f3 or f3r.... f2 is maxed out at 1600 HP at ideal effiency.....

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

How much horsepower do you think it takes to turn the Procharger at 28lb of boost?

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

Hi-Tide:
I'm not contending anything along those lines.
I have no personal knowledge other than what I've seen on the web and TV and I've tried to make it patently clear what my sources were. The purpose of this tread was to provoke some constructive discussion so I can't understand why you're bashing me!
Anyways, in the absence of any intrinsic input from you, I take it that your opinion is a direct product of your "base calculations"? Or do you actually have some expertise to share?
Wette: If you look at the 1600 blow-through BBC motor feature on his website (www.stevemorrisracingengines.com) under "performance specifications" you will see a dyno sheet which shows that it makes a peak of 1610 HP at 6100RPM. I have no way of knowing whether this is true or false, so if someone has an issue with it, take it out on Morris, not me, OK?
Without question, this is a drag race setup, so it couldn't be expected to last as is in a marine environment. But I have noticed that a lot of big name drag race engine builders (like Kenny Duttweiler) have been building marine motors for a few years now. I actually have an Hot Rod article with all of the clearances specs that duttweiler uses in his 598 Marine Motor. I don't think it's that much of a difference between a good drag motor and a marine motor.
Besides, anyone that know about engine building will tell you that the primary killer of a reciprocating assembly is RPM, since load increases geometrically with RPM. Granted, a marine engine generally stays at a relatively higher RPM than a passenger car motor, but in my view, if you can build a Big Block Chevy to turn 8500-9000 RPMs even for a few seconds, chances are the same motor will easily handle many long 5,500 - 6500 RPMs blasts in a boat.
.

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

Don't qoute me as fact, only repeating what I was told.
Talking with a friend of this fella above with the Baja.
They been working with Steve Morrison for two years now
and couldn't be happier. Also stated that Steve currently
is the world record holder for the most hp. on pump gas from a procharger. Can't remember what the numbers where, but he said Steve was shooting for 2000 plus this year on pump gas.

Again I don't know under what circumstances or rules.
But whether is Car, dyno, or boat it's pretty respectable.

This fella said Steve uses a series of intercoolers to accomplish the large hp.


Just my .02

Cougarman

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

1600 hp is definatly possible, 600 cubic inch, pro stock heads, a decent cam, a big Procharger with a big intercooler. On pump gas ? this could scare some of the Roots and Whipple guys.

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

He also builds pulling motors...This is brutal on an engine, going from 8500 rpm down to zero. He is building me a procharged 572,
it should easily make 1400 hp.....then we plan on toning it down to around 1000 for every day use on lake Michigan. I have a CNC mold-machine shop and we are developing a intercooler w/Steve. As things develop I will post some pics.

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

Hi Hardcore, I hope you're enjoying trouble-free boating these days. Good subject for a thread. :D

I surfed onto Steve's site one night and gave him a call. He seemed like a good guy to me. We didn't get into any details about what intercooling he is using but I'm sure it's a big one sitting in the passenger seat, with ice water running through it. That is the secret, and everybody in that class does it. Unfortunately this intercooler location means there is a lot of pressure loss in the ducting to and from the intercooler. That means you have to spin the blower faster and hotter for a given power increase. No problem when you have ice and the race is over in 7 seconds.

I don't doubt the HP claims. A good 572 should be able to make 750 HP on its own. It only needs 1000 CFM to do this. A little more pressure drop across the 850 and you're there, with greater signal to the fuel circuit than if you had a Dominator carb. If you apply enough boost to increase air density X 2.4, this engine will make 1800 HP, minus 200 to drive the blower equals 1600 HP. This means the carb has to move 2.4 times the fuel, which is possible with drilled out power valve channels, strong boosters and big jets.

This much density ratio would read as ~20 psi boost in the intake manifold, if the intercooler was using ice and could keep the intake air temperature down to ambient or lower. I think the 28 psi quoted is blower discharge pressure. The extra 8 psi is what you need to fight through the restrictions of the ducting, the intercooler and the carb.

So I believe the numbers, but there is currently no way to do this on pump gas in a boat, unless you boat in the Antarctic. Two things have to happen:

1) intercoolers have to get A LOT BIGGER, so that they can remove more heat with the available water temperature.

2) the ducting from blower to intake has to get A LOT LESS RESTRICTIVE, so that less HP taken off the crank to drive the blower, and the air leaving the blower is cooler to begin with.

Now, I wonder if anybody is trying to build such a thing? :evilb:

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

Call Pro-Charger and talk to Jim Summers , he's the man . We had a 342 inch Ford with Yates heads and a Pro Charger D-2/7 that made over 1400 hp , but definately not on pump gas . I'm curious about the longevity in the boats , for the price of a rebuild with good heads , cam and intake , you could bolt on a blower ....

or you could go old school with a big rat and an 8-71 , waiting in line for the dyno ....

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

Pump gas is the hardest to swallow, the power claims are easy to believe......twin turbos on a small block will put up those power numbers. I have an buddy who runs big inch nitrous motors in IHRA who is considering going to 500" twin turbo motor and expecting ~3000-3200HP :eek: :drink:

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

Maybe the guy uses pump gas from the "sunoco race gas pump". The numbers are entirely believable,i just question 28 psi of boost w/34 degrees timing w/92 octane,Smitty

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

http://www.bankspower.com/twin-turbo-performance.cfm

Check out Gale Banks site for what can be done on 91 octane vs. 100 octane. This was on a 366 SBC. There are no details about how the intercooling was done, but I suspect air-to-air in front of the rad. This limits the temp drop and increases pressure drop, so with cooler water and no ducting you can do better.

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

Steve Morris here.
CNC told me of the post and let me come on under his ID

Over a year ago is when we shot the ESPN show and at that time 1050 is the number we thought was right. In the show i turned up the blower and made the 1350. {lots of editing you don't see} I work on, and destroyed that same engine over the next 6 months and Have made 1695 with a custom Dominator and 1685 on a 850. Those numbers are on prochargers web site. We were using a F2
A F2 is capable of that much air seeing as procharger under rates them some and you can also turn them faster than the advertize.
Tom Cat is right on the money with his numbers and has a good looking piece he sells.
The key is in the intercooler at 1600 plus my under carb temp was 59 degrees.
Also we are working on and will make [Lord willing] 2000 hp on 93 it will be VP 93 but still 93 octane. Not only this but we plan on running this in my Drag Radial 93 impala wagon for the Drag week deal that hot rod mag is putting on. We plan on driving this car around 1000 miles or so in 5 days and racing it every night.

This is not a boat engine. i know there is 1400 that can be made with tom cats intercooler or i beleive with the one that will be on CNC's boat but for now that is it.

I warranty my boat engines up to 1200 hp and limited on 1400's

2 things to think about.
The needle and seat is the problem!
Your in the water, not all of it has to go thru a intercooler!
These are the secrets to 2000 HP

God Bless
Steve Morris

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

In a boat I have had 2 main problems, first being fuel mixture. After 1st year with procharger & dual carbs I gave up & went with EFI because I got tired of fighting tryiing to get jetting correct at all 3 spots, getting on plane (2000 rpm's) mid range (3500rpm) & top end 5800-5900 rpm). Second year with procharger went EFI, eliminated problems with A/F ratio but got to see my second problem, manifold air temp. With procharger intercooler I was over 140, now with the rtech we have reduced temp somewhere around 20+ degrees. Steve says his under carb temp is 59 degrees I see no way getting close to that in a boat motor, at least down here is Texas where water temps are mid 80's. with air temps in the 90's

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

Steve, you can make 1400 with the stock M-5 intercooler. What heads were you running on that 1695 hp motor?

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

Steve, nice hint ;) Nothing like having the lake artificially increase the octane :D

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

Needle and seat is the problem and this is why we run solenoids that are boost referenced that deliver fuel straight to the bowl.
As far as water injection just have to filter the water to the pump.
The bottom line is CFM that is efficient, a way to cool this CFM, and a way to deliver fuel to go with it.
Pump gas or not you just have to figure out how to control the explosion that may be catastrophic to your engine or you wallet.

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

Steve Here.

Can't do 1400 with prochargers intercooler without water injection in a safe form. Nobody is right got to controll whats going on inside the combustion chamber.

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

Steve: Welcome to the Board! I look forward to talking some more as we make progress towards the ideal centrifugally supercharged boat engine. GPM is a fellow Procharger "star", his boat is in the Procharger Marine brochure boasting 1372 HP. Like you he's gone beyond that now.

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

I saw a 522" BBC alcohol intercooled twin turbo motor with Big Dukes flowing 498 on the flow bench, this past weekend in a 68 Camaro. It had a tricked out Dominator, no needle and seat, only an electric eye in the fuel bowls. They said when the bowls started to empty the electric eye sensed and immediately filled the bowls. The bowls on this thing were massive, twice what a normal Dominator bowl size. The car was dynoed on a chassis dyno and @28 lbs of boost it made 1800 RWHP with the tires smoking. They said someone did some calcuations involving RPM vs wheel slippage and torque converter and claim this motor was making around 2700 hp at the crank. Now figuring the airflow at 500 cfm for the heads and then the airflow at 28 lbs of boost, I would gather that would be massive. Tomcat can you chime in on this, is this bull**** or realistically possible.

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

We have been building our full bore race car engines around Prochargers for more than 7 years now as well as big inch small block chevy pump gas street engines with 800 +hp on smaller Prochargers.



We make 1700+hp with our full race 500ci D3 Procharger 16 nossil Kinsler mechanical injection on Alcy thats 6 seconds @ 5000 to 8000 rpm power band and that's on a Pontiac stroker motor with heads that only flow 360 cfms on the intake side, imagine what a big block chevy would do with a set of big chiefs or what ever.

All it takes is tons of R & D time with what ever high hp set up, as the centrifigal blower manufactures still are not very helpfull on the big power applications.

Our injection guy's have a much better handle on these applications than the blower salesmen/ tecks.

Sounds like this 1600hp pump gas engine builder is on to something, with efi," not carbed" & Procharger I believe this would be a great niche for boat builders!

On our boat we still run stock B& M 420s @ 800hp with carbs @ 5600rpms, simple reliable power right off idle.

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

This SEEING eye has been out for a while and is made by Aeromotive. I personally would have to hear some success stories before I would use it. The size of the bowls won't help you in a boat, the big bowls would only be for drag.

Re: 1600 HP Pump Gas Procharged motor
 

Here is another question for you Tom. With your rtech right now on my motor I am limited by height. (already in trouble cutting into hatch to raise up 1/2"). In order to put a bigger intercooler in we would either have to go higher (would have to get rid of wife) or remote mount the intercooler. In remote mounting how much bigger intercooler would you have to have to compensate for the extra plumbing?