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Here is the latest project we just finished. A rebuild on a pair of 502's with a few upgrades with some great numbers and reliability.
Thanks Mike



Roccard Marine Engines
info@roccard marineengines.com
www.roccardmarineengines.com
570-956-2840

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how about a pic of the uncorrected sheet w/ the correction parameters... CAT, baro, etc... also... don't see any egts in the headers.... not interested in exhaust temps ?

what madel superflow is that and are you running their software or third party depac stuff ?

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:eek:

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Not going to be very reliable with those air fuel readings :eek:

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Bang!

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shiny :evilb:

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Are those valve covers going to fit with headers?

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Good evening gentlemen,

I see here that some of you are doubting the latest in engine building technology and the instruments which allow us to test our designs. I am happy to see that you are paying attention to the latest project completed at Roccard Marine.

Just to put you all at ease I’d like to remind you that the industry standard is corrected power; no professional engine builder uses uncorrected data. Here at Roccard, WE do not build our engines out of magazines. We build power using the latest available technology along with using our own proprietary designs and techniques.

Let me ask you folks with doubts, does the camshaft figure in anywhere in terms of how much compression ratio an engine will tolerate on pump gas? Making power is all about volumetric efficiency and cam timing, along with many variables, which smart engine builders employ. We just made approximately 640 hp with 502 cubes and that is 1.27 hp per cube, which is not outstanding power; it is average power. This is 2006 not 1986. By the time the stuff we are doing gets into your comic books telling you it cannot be done, it is already old news here.

Thanks Mike

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I would work on your PR and AFR.

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As for the afr the jets were bumped up one more size after this pull session.

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so i guess that means no uncorrected numbers and correction parameters.

interesting

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Just remember their might be some people on here that do know what's up so don't go sticking your foot in your mouth.

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can you elaborate .......m

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Those carburetors look Beautiful (although I might be a little biased) :D

I wouldn't get too worried about those A/F numbers since looking at the picture they are a Superflow derived number, not Lambda.

People need to be careful of what they say will or won't ever work. I've run marine engines leaner than this without any problem, but you have to take special care. Most marine engines will run richer, but every dyno will read slightly different depending on how the cell is setup, and the type of equipment is being used.

I hope your customer is very happy with the engines, and do everything he wants. I just wish you had gotten our marine carburetors instead of automotive carbs.

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it means simply that having made dyno pulls in probably the 10,000 s i am skeptical of any dyno sheet from anyone that does not have the uncorrected numbers and the parameters the correction factor is derived from. eg... if this sheet is corrected 0 % then that is a very good number. if it is corrected 20 % then it is decidedly average.

if dyno numbers are used by someone to illustrate their prowess then the information provided should be complete.

thats my only point.

but then again if you look up " cynic " in the dictonary, my picture is there

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stevesxm,

I'm curiosu what type of dyno equipement do you use? What correction factor do you run with?

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i ran superflows with both their software and third party software and used std correction and liked step testing .... would not use dyno sheets corrected more than 5 % but would test on bad days as relative indicators .... also would test on bad days to get data base for changes to be made at the track on those kind of days...

you can set the baro number on the console such that the correction will go off scale. you can do any number of things to make the sheets print any corrected number you want...

doesn't make them correct.

only the raw data tells you whats really happening from a research standpoint relative to the conditions on the day.

the corrected numbers on those days is just propaganda.

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Don't know that I'll total agree or disagree with all of that. Are you using Depac software or someone elses? But I normally correct to SAE which most engine builders don't like since it shows lower HP figures. If you control as many parameters going into the test as possible you get much better data. I generally try to at least control temp, & humidity if not barometer. Then from there get all pulls within 1 degree on oil, and water temp.

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correct and agree in all respects. i was a friend of davids when he first developed the depac system but haven't spoken to him in 20 years or more.... THERE is a guy that was light years ahead of his time... he did some DOS software for me that i use to this day.

i started a thread about dyno numbers here some time ago and got the bejessus beat out of me for being cynical and a doubting thomas.... both of which i am...

i just find it personally annoying when people make hp claims and publish sheets with no raw data... especially when the claims seem to be...well...optomistic.

what started this whole thing a while back was a similar claim that some guy made about 720 hp normally aspirated on a single carb from 500 inches on pump gas... not even 92 octane.... i suggested that that was unlikely as the compression ratio nec to do that would mean 100 + octane all day... asked for specifics then... and got none.

i don't know.... the whole bench racing / hp thing is just the entertainment i guess...

i think if i where buying big money , hi hp marine engines, i think ide want to stick with the guys that are racing and winning and actually have a vested interest in producing the numbers they claim if , in fact the numbers were meaningful to me. for most people i suspect, they ( and me , for that matter) wouldn't notice or feel 50 hp dif in the performance of the boat if i got sold 650 and only got 600.... but i could sure impress the hell out of my buddies with the dyno sheet

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stevesxm,

So you know Dave.... He is brilliant, but a pain in the ass to the point we no longer own a dyno with his system. We do still use Depac stuff on our flow benches.

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Here is a corrected sheet next to an uncorrected, as far as the correction goes without having my cell at sea level along with a direct line to Mother Nature to give me the optimum conditions everytime I do a pull there will always be a correction so we are all on the same standard playing field. Correction factors will change with different ambient conditions such as; vapor preasure, Baro, Temp ect. Those I have no control over. As far as the factor of correction again it will change with the mood of mother natures' conditions. I understand what some of you are saying about seeing the "real" number to tune accordingly to ambient conditions, in a car a few horsepower will make a big difference. In a boat there are too many different conditions which will also affect the driver feeling the result of only a few HP such as: prop slip, water conditions ect. I hope now we are all on the same page. If you notice the difference in the sheets our correction in peak HP that day was around 5%, the conditions were fairly good to us. But they could have been more if the conditions were different. We do not create magic numbers here they are what they are and if the conditions are bad the sheets will show that along with what the engine would do if they are good.

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All this over 30 hp ? you gea rheads ....... :D

hey mike ... is this a freash water boat ? just wondering how all that shine will hold up ? Also what intake ? .........

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Yes Anthony mostly runs the Hudson and Lake George, Hardin Marine manifolds.

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Mike,

The way I see it is you owe me 5% of my money back!!!


Just Kidding :evilb: :evilb: :drink:

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Just to point out something here....720 Hp with 510 cu in on pump gas 92-94 octane is totally achieveable. We have done it for years in "A" and "B" class offshore powerboat racing. Unfortunately these great classes are gone but my guys still pleasure boat them as hard as we used to race em' but we run pump fuel.

Best Regards,
Dean Gellner
Gellner Engineering Marine Power

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Dean,
Thank you for some more voice of reason.

Sincerely Mike

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These numbers are 100% real. That is the whole purpose of correction numbers to equalize numbers when comparing data. stevesxm just likes to start crap.

mike11 if you have any questions with our carburetors please let me know.

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well... never suggested not achieveable. simply asked for uncorrected data and correction parameters. and relative to the 720.. simply asked what the comp ratio was and what carb. and am still curious about both. am fully aware that good people doing impressive things in all respects. just surprised at lack of specifics when asked. and thought technical discussions were about that... not personalities. but apparently there are some sensitive egos out there.
ok w/ me... compensate any way that makes you feel better.

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Stevesxm,

I don't think it's that people here are thin skinned it's just that you've been very negative, and antagonistic with all of your posts since coming on board OSO.

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This is a great place for information. And from what I have seen alot of very good information! Speed secrets are just that. Many years of experience and practical hands on knowledge make things go fast , be reliable and set records. Not all secrets to the recipe are free Steve. Compression was legal "B" class 9.5:1. Just another point which we all already know...We don't race dyno's...We race powerboats. The end all be all is how does the boat run!


Dean

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dear dean,
your reputation and track record speak for themselves... and i am certainly not looking for anything for free... i was and remain technically curious even after all these years. if you are saying to me that you were and still are making 700 + at 9.5 , normally asprirated out of 500 in w/ a single 4 bbl , i say that is remarkable and ( pardon the pun) more power to you. seriously... that is magnificent work.

but for me it begs the question... you say above that your pleasure boat customers are still running these.... so that implies good reliabilty and driveability and reasonable hour life... so actually two questions please...

1) why is anybody bothering with hassle and expense of superchargers to get to the 700's and

2) how much do they cost ? ... because that is a hell of a package and they may be my next step because nothing i ever built myself or was associated with ever got even close to that. i needed 11 to 1 or better to make those kind of numbers and even that was hard and i can't say i ever got there repeatably

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I'd say they are mechanical roller engines that turn more than 5800 rpm's.

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Horsepower is a function of torque x rpm. Higher horsepower form the same cid size engine generally requires higher rpm. Drag race guys are getting a lot more than 700 hp out of 500ci, but they can rev to 7000rpm and more.

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Its a hydraulic roller cam in these particular engines.

Nordic95

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sorry you feel that way. it is just it never occured to me that asking simple direct question was antagonistic... nor the observation that there was no simple direct answer.

also sorry that when you asked me to elaborate, you didn't like my opinion... note the word "opinion"

seems to me that if an individual is willing to publish a corrected sheet volunterily, then the uncorrected sheet w/ the correction factors can't be a state secret. but again... just my negative and antagonistic opinion.

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The engines I am referring to are 510 cu.in 9.5:1 comp, mech roller cams, wetsump w/ vac. pumps 1 X 4 carbs(dominator) and we had to use an iron head casting. Merlin head with extensive cyl.head development. The engines would produce 785 Horsepower @ 7200 rpm & we would run them between 6800-7200. The Great Lakes SilverCup Series used to have about 8-10 races per year that were about 80-100 mile races. We would race the entire schedule without pulling the engines until the Worlds. Change oil,filter,sparkplugs,Compression and leakdown test, and run spring pressures. The engines would look like new when they came in for a rebuild. The bearing were like the day they went in. In regards to your questions.
1) I don't know why.
2) For a pleasure boat application I would build a 510-557 cu.in. engine 1 X 4 to build the same power but keep RPM down. Most of my single carb stuff I still tell em' to turn the wick up = speed. The cost can vary depending on components. Somewhere between $26,000.00-$28,000.00
fully marinized with the best.
Best Regards,

Dean Gellner

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Mike,how much power will the motors lose with marine exhaust versus dry dyno headers? I have always heard you lose some of the positive scavenging effects of the heat building up in the header tube with a water cooled exhaust and even more once you mix water into the exhaust stream. If you made 630 "corrected" hp and motor loses 35-50 hp with a marine type exhaust,putting you lets say at 590hp,figure another 10-20 hp loss turning all the accessories (I see in the dyno pics you are not running any accessories) that would put you around 570-580 hp which,although it isn't as spectacular, is around what most guys are making with similar packages and very believable,Smitty

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It totally depends on the exhaust, every one responds differently. Also Smitty there is more in these to be had, if we spent some time in the heads the 40-50 hp would be made up.

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Like I said, mechanical roller.

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Hey guys on this subject of dynoes and real uncorrected power,look at this article.I have been a Pontiac guru since 1987,building and running Pontiac motors in my 1968 Firebird at street nights at our local drag strips.Never would I have guessed that technology would bring one of these dinosaurs to this level on pump gas.And for the younger generations reading this,Yes Pontiac did manufacture there own engines before corporate world took over and started putting Chevy based engines in the Pontiac chassis.I think us OSOers should request the uncorreted power dyno sheet,there could be a 111% correction going on here not the claimed 1.11. :D :D :D
P.s. This artical just came in the mail today.
Nordic95