Stabil what's really in it ?
06-14-2007 | 04:20 PM
#21
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From: sint maarten
no. wikopedia is an unedited , unreviewed and uncontrolled medium which is simply wrong in a factual sense about 50 % of the time and what you read from google , unless from peer review sources isn't much better. i can appreciate your cynicisim... it is generally well founded. but having said that i would suggest that if your opinions are based solely on that sort of research then they are not particularly well founded.
if you want to generate a subjective opinion on a technical matter outside of your discipline, then take the time to do some objective testing. back up your opinions ( regardless of what they are with some data... REAL data.... not anecdotal, repeatable controlled testing over a significant enough sample set so that you don't end up with a knee jerk conclusion. not bs that you read on some website somewhere.
is the fuel going to be a problem in some engines ? yes. but that solution is going to be derived on a case by case basis based on what the application is.
this is the same " sky is falling " nonsense that happened with unleaded fuel. people figured out how to make motors live then and they will now. and the companies that are making the products you mention are doing just that.
test them emprically. record the data. do a real and genuine proper analysis and report back with facts... don't just condemn them because some one clever is making a product that makes them some money.
you would do the same if you were able. im not trying to give you a hard time... but the fact is this is how everybody gets confused on what to do. simple lack of authoratative or objectively generated data...
the web is full of information.... the vast majority of which is generated by people that don't know their asses from a hole in the ground.
if you want to generate a subjective opinion on a technical matter outside of your discipline, then take the time to do some objective testing. back up your opinions ( regardless of what they are with some data... REAL data.... not anecdotal, repeatable controlled testing over a significant enough sample set so that you don't end up with a knee jerk conclusion. not bs that you read on some website somewhere.
is the fuel going to be a problem in some engines ? yes. but that solution is going to be derived on a case by case basis based on what the application is.
this is the same " sky is falling " nonsense that happened with unleaded fuel. people figured out how to make motors live then and they will now. and the companies that are making the products you mention are doing just that.
test them emprically. record the data. do a real and genuine proper analysis and report back with facts... don't just condemn them because some one clever is making a product that makes them some money.
you would do the same if you were able. im not trying to give you a hard time... but the fact is this is how everybody gets confused on what to do. simple lack of authoratative or objectively generated data...
the web is full of information.... the vast majority of which is generated by people that don't know their asses from a hole in the ground.
06-14-2007 | 06:17 PM
#22
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From: Babylon N.Y.
Appreciate the input. Many manufacturers use tounge-trickery and use complicated terms to describe simple electro- chemical processes. My Wikipedia info has been compared against several sources and all of them concur, including energy co refinery's aircraft manufactures and a variety of experts. I have done some studies, as well as been around marinas as well as looked at MSDS sheets and examined what is actually in products, and thier history.
Just for a laugh, I found out that wood alcohol (Methanol) is also called wood naptha, and of course is micible in water. I tried it out and mixed some in a container before squirting it in a carb vent tube that had water in it. Blew it right out. Also have been comparing fuels and thier qualities from real data spread sheets and can quote many Gov't resources Such as API , ETC.
Just for a laugh, I found out that wood alcohol (Methanol) is also called wood naptha, and of course is micible in water. I tried it out and mixed some in a container before squirting it in a carb vent tube that had water in it. Blew it right out. Also have been comparing fuels and thier qualities from real data spread sheets and can quote many Gov't resources Such as API , ETC.
06-15-2007 | 10:38 AM
#23
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From: sint maarten
well... i for one encourage your efforts and research. the more you understand at a fundemental level, the less likely you are to get roped in by some salesman... and by "you" i mean everybody... the only post in this thread that i have a real problem with is the one that suggests that this E10 or other E fuel will somehow disolve fiberglass tanks... nothing i know or understand about THAT chemestry suggests that should be the case... and i have had 5 gallons sitting in a fiberglass tank since i read that and it is still clean and fresh and so is the tank... so thats one i don't get....
now.... if you want to suggest that somehow the E fuel chemistry is acting as a solvent against some longstanding crud thats been sitting in the bottom of your tank that your previous fuel wouldn't touch... well............ MAYBE.... but the gelcoat / cured polyester or epoxy resin ? sorry..... i don't buy it.
now.... if you want to suggest that somehow the E fuel chemistry is acting as a solvent against some longstanding crud thats been sitting in the bottom of your tank that your previous fuel wouldn't touch... well............ MAYBE.... but the gelcoat / cured polyester or epoxy resin ? sorry..... i don't buy it.
06-15-2007 | 02:15 PM
#24
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From: Babylon N.Y.
well... i for one encourage your efforts and research. the more you understand at a fundemental level, the less likely you are to get roped in by some salesman... and by "you" i mean everybody... the only post in this thread that i have a real problem with is the one that suggests that this E10 or other E fuel will somehow disolve fiberglass tanks... nothing i know or understand about THAT chemestry suggests that should be the case... and i have had 5 gallons sitting in a fiberglass tank since i read that and it is still clean and fresh and so is the tank... so thats one i don't get....
now.... if you want to suggest that somehow the E fuel chemistry is acting as a solvent against some longstanding crud thats been sitting in the bottom of your tank that your previous fuel wouldn't touch... well............ MAYBE.... but the gelcoat / cured polyester or epoxy resin ? sorry..... i don't buy it.
now.... if you want to suggest that somehow the E fuel chemistry is acting as a solvent against some longstanding crud thats been sitting in the bottom of your tank that your previous fuel wouldn't touch... well............ MAYBE.... but the gelcoat / cured polyester or epoxy resin ? sorry..... i don't buy it.
I have seen the fiberglass tanks get eaten by the ethanol. Maybe some newer tanks or other tanks are ethanol proof, but in time the ethanol disollves them and the fuel system and valves and everything inside of the motor is covered with polymers and goop.
Bertram's had fiberglass tanks, and only since we got the ethanol have the tanks been going bad.
I have lived all of my life next to a boat yard and there's one on the next block and many others, as I am surrounded by water and marinas, and I have my eyes open ! This is causing problems for gas stations too, the industry knew all of this decades ago but doesn't care about anything except huge record profits. BBB
06-15-2007 | 02:57 PM
#25
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From: sint maarten
well. i can't dispute what you see but by the same token, i can't account for it either. i have run fglass and other composite types of enclosures with every fuel type imagineable including methanol... and never had any issues. nor, even if i hadn't done that, would i ever have predicted that could happen based on the chemestry as i know it... but who knows... my degree isn't in that discipline nor am i a chemical engineer. if i had to hazard a guess ( and thats all it would be ) i would have to say that the tanks you mention were perhaps made from something OTHER than fglass as we know it and are euphamistcally talking about.... but i don't have a shred of evidence to support that. my glass tank here is on 48 hrs or more now with no degradation what so ever. i ll leave it for a couple weeks and report back
06-16-2007 | 04:19 PM
#26
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From: Babylon N.Y.
I went to alloy metalworks today to pick up an axle and discussed this with the owner, and he has a bunch of delaminated junk thanks that he used as models to build new 1/8 " aluminum ones. This is the way things are heading, everyone has to forget what they think they know and keep up with the regress of real knowledge. BBB
06-19-2007 | 09:19 AM
#27
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From: Missouri
I know that Methonal in gasoline will sperate out once the water content in the gas reaches a certain percent. Is it correct that this is the case as well for Ethanol as described below?
Algae is primarily a diesel fuel problem.
I'm addressing specifically fuel containing 10% Ethanol (E10) is already cleaning your tank out by dissolving the varnish/gum already in the tank, epseciually in older boats that have some buildup. It will also eat up pre 1996 fuel hoses requiring you to replace them. If you have a fiberglass tank, you're i deep doo-doo. It's gonna turn to mush. The dissolved bad-stuff is then either gonna clog up your pickup screen or in my case with T-496HO's, the fuel goes thru the electric boost pum[p prior to the separator and will clog up that screen (as many have posted here in TQ&A). Not to mention due to phase separation, the fuel loses it's octane rating and your motor/s will run like crap.
The other thing is does is called "Phase Separation". In short order, the Ethanol bonds with any water molecules contained in the fuel creating large lobes of water which is heavier than fuel and falls to the bottom. Add dissolved gum/varnish and pure shots of water thru any electric pump/injectors and you've got problems.
Virginia started mandatory use of Ethanol as May 1st. Prior to having theirt tanks filled with the first batch gas stations/marina's had to empty their tanks and have them professionally cleaned out due to Ethanol's "intolerance" for water compared to the previous ingredient giving gas it's Octane levels. I've already been thru two boost pump this season. Initially my fuel looked dark reddish with lots of water in it and particles of crud. Took several separator filter changes and continued use of the additives I mentioned above to finally get it vcleaned up and the fuel looking right again (clear & golden).
Not sure how Star-Tron works, but if nothing else it's supposed to keep the water emulsified so it passes harmlessly. Pri-G is another product that rejuvenates old fuel. Stabil helps in keeping fresh fuel fresh. All three can be used together. Until more is learned after E10 has been out awhile I'm using all three until secure otherwise.
Regardless of what you use, do not use any product such as Dry-Gas etc. that contains Alcohol. You would only be adding fuel to the fire as Ethanol is already pure corn alcohol.
I'm addressing specifically fuel containing 10% Ethanol (E10) is already cleaning your tank out by dissolving the varnish/gum already in the tank, epseciually in older boats that have some buildup. It will also eat up pre 1996 fuel hoses requiring you to replace them. If you have a fiberglass tank, you're i deep doo-doo. It's gonna turn to mush. The dissolved bad-stuff is then either gonna clog up your pickup screen or in my case with T-496HO's, the fuel goes thru the electric boost pum[p prior to the separator and will clog up that screen (as many have posted here in TQ&A). Not to mention due to phase separation, the fuel loses it's octane rating and your motor/s will run like crap.
The other thing is does is called "Phase Separation". In short order, the Ethanol bonds with any water molecules contained in the fuel creating large lobes of water which is heavier than fuel and falls to the bottom. Add dissolved gum/varnish and pure shots of water thru any electric pump/injectors and you've got problems.
Virginia started mandatory use of Ethanol as May 1st. Prior to having theirt tanks filled with the first batch gas stations/marina's had to empty their tanks and have them professionally cleaned out due to Ethanol's "intolerance" for water compared to the previous ingredient giving gas it's Octane levels. I've already been thru two boost pump this season. Initially my fuel looked dark reddish with lots of water in it and particles of crud. Took several separator filter changes and continued use of the additives I mentioned above to finally get it vcleaned up and the fuel looking right again (clear & golden).
Not sure how Star-Tron works, but if nothing else it's supposed to keep the water emulsified so it passes harmlessly. Pri-G is another product that rejuvenates old fuel. Stabil helps in keeping fresh fuel fresh. All three can be used together. Until more is learned after E10 has been out awhile I'm using all three until secure otherwise.
Regardless of what you use, do not use any product such as Dry-Gas etc. that contains Alcohol. You would only be adding fuel to the fire as Ethanol is already pure corn alcohol.
06-19-2007 | 04:07 PM
#29
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From: Lake Charles, LA USA
Naptha is a generic term for a distillate with a distinct range of boiling points coming off of a refinery crude unit distillation column that is approximately the same as gasoline. "Straight run" naptha or naptha taken directly off of the crude unit atmospheric column has a low octane, 50-70.
Refineries use reforming and alkylation units to make higher octane materials to blend up the naptha to 87, 89 and 92/93. Reformate is naphta run through a reformer and generally has an octane of 90-100 depending on how the reformer is run. Alkylation units make the chemical octane which is by definition 100. The refineries blend the lower and higher octane material to meet the octane requirements alone with vapor pressure requirement, gum formation, corrosion tendency along with a host of other requirements.
I posted this earlier but once again, the naptha in Stabil is the carrier or solvent. Hydrotreated means it is treated with hydrogen over a catalyst to saturate all the olefinic (carbon-carbon double bonds that form GUMS) and remove sulfur/nitrogen compounds. Naptha is not the active material. The proprietary active material is 5% of the product. Not knowing the actual chemicals used in Stabil I can not tell you much but there are chemicals on the market that inhibit gum formation, we use them all the time with great success on gasoline and diesel so there is no reason that a consumer product like Stabil will not work.
I use Stabil on all my lawn equipment and it works great.
BTW if you want more octane try toluene, ~116 octane.
Tom
Refineries use reforming and alkylation units to make higher octane materials to blend up the naptha to 87, 89 and 92/93. Reformate is naphta run through a reformer and generally has an octane of 90-100 depending on how the reformer is run. Alkylation units make the chemical octane which is by definition 100. The refineries blend the lower and higher octane material to meet the octane requirements alone with vapor pressure requirement, gum formation, corrosion tendency along with a host of other requirements.
I posted this earlier but once again, the naptha in Stabil is the carrier or solvent. Hydrotreated means it is treated with hydrogen over a catalyst to saturate all the olefinic (carbon-carbon double bonds that form GUMS) and remove sulfur/nitrogen compounds. Naptha is not the active material. The proprietary active material is 5% of the product. Not knowing the actual chemicals used in Stabil I can not tell you much but there are chemicals on the market that inhibit gum formation, we use them all the time with great success on gasoline and diesel so there is no reason that a consumer product like Stabil will not work.
I use Stabil on all my lawn equipment and it works great.
BTW if you want more octane try toluene, ~116 octane.
Tom
06-20-2007 | 04:05 AM
#30
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From: Babylon N.Y.
Yes , Toluene it's 114 octane,
Stay away from Xylene it's 116 octane, and is used in the rubber industry as a solvent. Very bad for fuel pumps, hoses and carbs, etc.
An interesting note , Methanol is also called Wood naptha. I think, in small amounts it will absorb some water without creating a problem. Maybe that's our missing 5 %, just noticing that 5 on my keyboard has the % sign over it !
The olefins are the waxy substances and are used to manufacture plastics.
Not all of them seperate in the distillation process.
I feel that unwanted chemical residues find thier way into fuel as a way to dispose of them.
With the price of fuel, would you put it past the industry to sell byproducts that they would have to pay to get rid of ?
BBB
Stay away from Xylene it's 116 octane, and is used in the rubber industry as a solvent. Very bad for fuel pumps, hoses and carbs, etc.
An interesting note , Methanol is also called Wood naptha. I think, in small amounts it will absorb some water without creating a problem. Maybe that's our missing 5 %, just noticing that 5 on my keyboard has the % sign over it !
The olefins are the waxy substances and are used to manufacture plastics.
Not all of them seperate in the distillation process.
I feel that unwanted chemical residues find thier way into fuel as a way to dispose of them.
With the price of fuel, would you put it past the industry to sell byproducts that they would have to pay to get rid of ?
BBB
Last edited by Big Block Billy; 06-20-2007 at 04:06 AM. Reason: typo
