Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

The Kieth Eckert web site shows independant test lab dyno data that says that their manifolds out perfrom CMI headers and everything else for that matter. Anything to this?

http://www.keitheickert.com/products...ke-exhaust.htm

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

One of the members on OSO father developed the headers.
He is a dentist and made and sold them himself for awhile before selling everything to Eickert.

I've always heard great things about them.

Cougarman

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

When Volvo developed their 540/600 package what 8-9yrs ago, they tested I believe every exhaust out there. They ended up with KE exhaust and offered Stellings at more money and the understanding a decrease in hp. Innovation did have a bunch left over from the Volvo project at a decent price. Reggie would slip them in on some of his test boats for mags:D .

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

That is a pretty broad brush claim...maybe better than e-tops?

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

Back when the dentist made them each runner was cast the exact same length.

Then they had a special paste that was continually run throungh each runner to hone it and clean up the casting for better flow.

There was alot of work in them to make them perform so well.

Not sure if eickert does them same thing with them now.

Cougarman

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

Beauty of a cast manifold escpecially with big SC HP is that they never crack and never leak - any tube header should be checked reguarly for leaks - The KE headers are not all that pretty but have proven to make the power - We ran them on a SC 1,000 - CMI leaked after every other race and need to be welded - ran the KE 2 seasons no problems - The cost of the headers was nothing compared to the cost of one hydroed cylinder

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

Interesting.........................
Jr.

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

I dont beleive you couldn't tune more HP from the stellings. I bet the engine in the test had cam, cylinder heads and compression to suit the shorter runner of the KE better. Any hard working engine with good compression that breathes well would benifit from a longer 4 into 1 system, especially at higher RPMs and definatly with naturally asperated engines. Actually if they are that good, why dont we see the same design in race cars or at the strip. Plenty of BBCs there only turning 6500rpm.

Jas

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

Donz is correct - header tube lenght has an relationship to peak power band - add additional pipe lenght, add mufflers and everything changes again - You would need to better understand where you want to make peak power - then look at tube lenght - If this is an SC engine everything will work -

I have had plenty of CMI headers off a 525 that need welded the bigger the power/heat the more likely a SS weld is going to open up/ crack - I'll take a reduction in Hp any day to have the reliability that the engine will go a year without having to pull and check headers for leaks - call the guys at KE and ask them the questions you are asking here - I'm interested to see what a real side by side comparison is -

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

I figured that the real dif between KE's pipe and a SS pipe would be at the big hp/big bore app. However, there is a fella up in MN that has some 600 in motors with PSI's making close to 1100 and he ran the big tubes and KE's on the dyno and supposedly the difference was like 10 hp so he went with KE's. That was many years ago and he still has KE's. If you look at some of the IR SS pipes the runner lengths are not even close. I had some Stellings green's and the dif was like 8", from 30 to 22" in total length. However, the CMI tube top that has the two piece pipe supposedly had close to the same runner lengths?

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

I did not realize that the KE link did not work. Another try.
http://www.keitheickert.com/products/Exhaust/
All great comments/insight. Thanks.
For the record the KE cast aluminum manifold add says the exhaust runners are 32 " long. As far as why not in racing my guess would be the design inflexability of the KE unit which would not allow any tuning/design optimization that tube headers can more readily accomodate. Sounds like the tube ID polishing was an Extrude Hone type process. Expensive. Good question as to if this is still being done.

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

I called KE and asked. They do not Extrude Hone / polish the exhaust runner ID's. They are as cast.

There is only one BBC confirguration and it does not fit the 496.

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

We used these for years racing superboat class with KE 1100's 2 natioanl championships- Just got tired of repairing SS headers - Bolted the cast KE's on and never had an issue - they are not as sexy to look at as SS tube type but they have low initial cost and zero maintenance and do not have to be drained after every use -

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

that su**S because it sounds like it's a great product and I can't use it,it looks like CMI or has anyone heard or used the new lightning platinum fresh water jacketed headers for the 496 offered by CP performance? They seem to be @ half pri
ce of CMI, but how good are they?
I have called on them but they don't have any dyno test info.

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

We sell the best headers and mufflers offered in the marine industry - CMI Exhaust Headers have been on more National and World Championship Boats than all other exhaust systems combined!

KE makes a nice perfroming product. I doubt they perfrom as well as anyones headers system though.

Mercury Racing and Ilmor can't be wrong on their exhaust choice now can they? :D

Call us if we can help.

Kirk

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

I'll bet if you knew what Merc was paying CMI for the pipes you would probably have a better understanding as to why they run them.:D

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

Is the only reason people say that most of the "manifold type" headers won't fit a 496 is because of the short riser or ?? I installed a 496 in a '96 Baja 240, closed cooled and put on regular EMI Thunder headers. It is on it's third year now with no problems!

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

I had the KE Headers on my old boat, and I did pick up 2mph on a stock 502mpi. The only problem I had with them was I sucked up mud and the header melted on the inside top portion of the runner! Back to stock it went.

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

I read that the only reason Merc changed exhaust is because the people who buy the Blue motors wanted the bling factor, not because they performed a whole lot better.

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

I disagree, I think they look cool as hell, but then again, I always like something that looks a little different than what every kid on the block has. :)

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

[QUOTE=speedreeder;2002561]Is the only reason people say that most of the "manifold type" headers won't fit a 496 is because of the short riser or ?? I installed a 496 in a '96 Baja 240, closed cooled and put on regular EMI Thunder headers. It is on it's third year now with no problems!
Now that you say that, the only thing that I remember is that the o2 sensor can not be installed without drilling and welding a nut for it but again I am not sure, I gues I have to do some more research.

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

About Mercury and Illmore" can't be wrong", CMI builds a nice product, but they do have limitations and they can and do leak

- I see where McDonalds has sold billions and billions of hamburgers, but that does not mean the food is good for you -

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

I've had two sets of CMI headers crack/leak on stock 525's. From reading this thread, it sounds very common. This is on a pleasure boat, not racing. Do you guys pull the headers and check them on a regular basis? Do you drain them after every use?

Any info would be appreciated, first boat with headers and they are driving me nuts, not to mention $$$.

Thanks, Mark

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

Many CMI exhaust systems that I have seen have no where near equal length 32" runners. They are mearly a tube style "manifold". That is a pretty bold statement saying a 32" equal length runner KE manifold can't keep up with a header.

Isn't Mercury Racing the same group of people that chose the valve springs for the original HP500's and the Gil exhaust with the low risers for the same engine?

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

If you look at kieths web site his chart claims to out perform all tube headershttp://www.keitheickert.com/products/Exhaust/ke-exhaust.htm

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

Not sure I have a whole lot to add here (no experiece with the Ke's), but it seems like a lot of people are having some problems with the definition of a header, and I have some experience with custom headers, having hand fabricated more than a few sets.

The only things that matter are runner length and diameter as well as how tight the bends are. It doesn't matter what the header is made of! Stock low performance manifolds are bad because they have no runner length and dump into a log that is very bad for both flow and reversion. Then the exhaust passes through a horribly tight riser that cuts flow further.

If the KE's are a good design and the correct length FOR YOUR PARTICULAR ENGINE then they will easily perform as well as hand fabricated SS headers. However the KE's are only one length/diameter so they would reguire a complete retooling to work well on a custom racing engine.

Race teams with any real $$$ spend a great deal of time on trial and error, getting exhaust to tune properly. If they could do this easily without hyper expensive tooling changes and end up with the same performance, but better reliability I'm sure they would.

Personaly, if I were building a recreational big dollar big block and didn't KNOW what would work best with my particular application, I'd certainly go with the KE's if they were more reliable.

PS. I like the comments regarding "bling" factor and how much Mercury Racing pays for the CMI's. Marine exhaust (along with most go fast stuff) seems to be priced on the 1000% markup theory as apposed to the 100% markup that exists in auto hotrodding. I'm guessing MR pays a couple hundred for them and CMI still makes a profit.

PPS. Extrude hone processes are worthless on anything other than the worst castings. The material the process removes ends up being directionaly incorrect (ie. takes off material where it should actually leave it).

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

[QUOTE=speedygonzalez;2003019]HEY speedy, Forgot to say I was running a MarinePower 496 not a Mercury.

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

Here is a cutaway pic of when I made the headers. They are all 31 to 32 inches in length with a 4 into 2 into 1 collector.
Typically it performed like any good 2 X 32 header with frequently a little extra torque around 3600 to 4400 rpm because the 4-2-1 collectors which typically broaden the torque band. The runners actually have an oval profile with an area equal to a 2" round header. Currently we are using them on 1250 HP motors.
Dennis

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

Keep in mind for anyone considering keith eickerts in a procharged or similar mounted supercharger,there is not enough clearence to bolt the blower on due to the fwd bend of the casting,Smitty

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

As a manufacturer of many stainless parts including a lot of 316L tube products (not headers) I can tell you with confidence you are way off base on your cost estimate. You can't even purchase the material for a set of headers for that amount of $ much less the labor to bend, weld, polish, R&D, equip cost, etc etc etc... Not saying Merc isn't high priced, they are. But no where near that level of markup exists in any of this stuff.

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

Hello Dennis, how you doing :)

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

Yeah, I was thinking more about that after I wrote it. I guess it really just depends on the amount made. I know about what it costs to make custom SS single wall headers, and know how cheaply they can actually be produced if you're getting them made in reasonable sized batches, but I guess I really don't have any clue how many sets of headers CMI makes or MR buys. Is it 10 a year or 500? If they're making them in decent sized batched, you can setup the benders and crank them out pretty quickly. Of course welding up the double walls has to be interesting. All the more reason for others to step up and make KE style cast aluminum headers.

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

I had occasion to talk to a race program individual that stated some years back they tested every header package that they could get their hands on and found that the CMI's produced the best hp. They also tried the KE cast manifold which worked well producing hp but experienced "cracking" of the internal cast runners and hydrauliced a motor as a result. Since reliability was a top priority they dropped future consideration of the KE manifold.

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

Interesting, I heard some other reasons ??
Guess what they use it over Sea's in there racing circuit. :D

Cougarman

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

The cast aluminum manifolds are no more likely to melt than aluminum heads or aluminum pistons, assuming they have proper cooling. Stopping water flow to either the SS or cast manifolds under high load conditions can result in failure.

For the people who swear by the stainless exhaust and say they never leak probably have never had them off and pressure tested them with 30 psi to prove weather they leak or not. And for those who have hydroed and engine - well those guys already know they leak.

I know from experience that a quality SS manifold is relatively low risk item, however my personal experience is that aluminum is less likely to fail all things being equal.

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

Rage, interesting comment as I had good inside info that Merc had made offers to KE to purchase his pipes. KE opted not to go there. I have over 400 hours on a pair and I have run at least 750 hp into them and for the last 200 hours over 900. Not a single issue. However, I do keep them supplied with water to keep them properly cooled.

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

All I can say is this what I was told was from a reliable source. Maybe just bad luck or like you say cooling problems. Sounds like others are racing the KE with success and reliability. Of course I have also seen similar conflicting comments on the CMI's. Some say they have never had a problem and others say the can not keep them on the boat. Seems like more are reporting problems than not. I was personnally planning on purchasing the KE until I discovered that they do not make one for the 496 and have no plans to.

An addenum, I asked KE if they still Extrude Hone the tubes. They do not.

Annother comment on why Mercury is using CMI's is maybe they make the most hp.

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

What " other reasons"?

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

Perhaps all I should say is the European Teams love them. :drink:


Cougarman

Re: Kieth Eckert Manifolds make more power than CMI Headers
 

If that is the case, then why would they use Edelbrock heads? We all know that they are not the best available.

525-550 horsepower is not rocket science. They are buying what makes the boat look faster/better and what they can get the best deal on. With the outrageous prices Mercury Racing charges for their product, it has to look like it is different or better than regular Mercury product. I don't think a guy that is willing to pay 300-500k for a boat w/ 525's and goes as far as to have airbrushed battery hold downs, wants a big old clunky set of KE's under the hatch. It doesn't matter how much horsepower, how good or how reliable they are. I do know that if I had a set of 525's in a 3 year old boat and needed to buy $10,000 worth of new headers because they were leaking, I would be the most pissed off guy on the internet.