496 HO's, Procharger, VS. Whipple. VS. Raylar?
10-15-2007, 06:45 PM
#21
SeaRay Sundancer
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Dustin......should have said a raylar 600 with ANY supercharger. Im not choosing a procharge over yours or vis-a-versa. Only a very internaly strong NA 496 motor with the addition of a s-charger.
Last edited by tblrklakemo; 10-15-2007 at 06:47 PM.
10-15-2007, 07:23 PM
#22
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Certainly can live at 3.5 if the af and timing is correct. Not that its an exact example, but in the auto market, with some of our Ford kits, they partner with us and do durability testing. The new 4.6L 3v mustang motor has the ring nearly at the top of the piston, far worse than the 496 or GM LS based engines, yet at 75% HP and torque over stock (10psi), the motor passes 50 hours @ peak HP/peak rpm, and 50 hours at peak trq. The motor constantly detonates, as it has to be set to it's worst envoirnment. No issues with pistons failing. EGT's stay near 1700deg f.
Ford Lightning's, years 99-04 all came with hyperutetic pistons, supercharged at 8psi of boost.
I honestly can't tell you how many times I've seen people install better parts, and then hurt the next thing. If the setup is right, it will be very, very reliable. This means all have to be factored, static compression ratio, engine operating temp, cylinder head design, piston design, cylinder head material, oil temp, air fuel, spark, spark plug heat range and style, etc.
What makes things tough for aftermarket companies such as ours is having the kit used in the way it's intended. If we stated 50psi of fuel psi, thats what we found was the best, possibly +2psi for safety. But then, nearly every gauge in this world varies (drives me crazy) so the installer may set psi right, but gauge might be wrong, not it's lean, or rich. This is why the af meters are so valuable. Years back, these were so expensive, I have 8 of them that were $10,000 each!! Now, you can get a quality one for $300!! To me, if your an engine builder, or a tuning shop, repair shop or work on engines, your crazy to not own one.
Dustin
Ford Lightning's, years 99-04 all came with hyperutetic pistons, supercharged at 8psi of boost.
I honestly can't tell you how many times I've seen people install better parts, and then hurt the next thing. If the setup is right, it will be very, very reliable. This means all have to be factored, static compression ratio, engine operating temp, cylinder head design, piston design, cylinder head material, oil temp, air fuel, spark, spark plug heat range and style, etc.
What makes things tough for aftermarket companies such as ours is having the kit used in the way it's intended. If we stated 50psi of fuel psi, thats what we found was the best, possibly +2psi for safety. But then, nearly every gauge in this world varies (drives me crazy) so the installer may set psi right, but gauge might be wrong, not it's lean, or rich. This is why the af meters are so valuable. Years back, these were so expensive, I have 8 of them that were $10,000 each!! Now, you can get a quality one for $300!! To me, if your an engine builder, or a tuning shop, repair shop or work on engines, your crazy to not own one.
Dustin
10-16-2007, 07:44 AM
#25
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Good stuff here guys. (even with the hijackers) 
So.. Supercharging. 3.5 PSI boost. CMI headers. Precise set up on fuel. No internal changes and re-programming or dyno the set. This should give me reliability and good HP boost.
Will see what the boat will do then, later add the Raylar.
OR. ?? !! go for the 525's right off the bat and sell the standard 496's ??
So.. Supercharging. 3.5 PSI boost. CMI headers. Precise set up on fuel. No internal changes and re-programming or dyno the set. This should give me reliability and good HP boost.
Will see what the boat will do then, later add the Raylar.
OR. ?? !! go for the 525's right off the bat and sell the standard 496's ??
10-16-2007, 08:25 AM
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I love when I see people saying the pistons won't make it, or the motor will fall apart. The pistons can take the abuse if setup properly. Detonation is what kills them, so the system needs to be conservative, and you need to stay in the parameters the mfg's state.
One single "Detonation" event does not typically kill motors, it's prolonged abuse, maybe this is 5 seconds, or 20 seconds, or 5 minutes. Therefore, better parts, such as forged vs. cast, cometic gasket vs. graphite gasket, etc. all increase the length of detonation, but typically does not stop it. Therefore, if it's not right, it will still fail, it's just when.
Thanks,
Dustin
All that said, I'd like to know how many modded 496 failures are related to stock pistons.You'll be getting my PCM again this winter (with good data this time) and hopefully all will be well.
10-16-2007, 08:32 AM
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Good stuff here guys. (even with the hijackers)
So.. Supercharging. 3.5 PSI boost. CMI headers. Precise set up on fuel. No internal changes and re-programming or dyno the set. This should give me reliability and good HP boost.
Will see what the boat will do then, later add the Raylar.
OR. ?? !! go for the 525's right off the bat and sell the standard 496's ??
So.. Supercharging. 3.5 PSI boost. CMI headers. Precise set up on fuel. No internal changes and re-programming or dyno the set. This should give me reliability and good HP boost.
Will see what the boat will do then, later add the Raylar.
OR. ?? !! go for the 525's right off the bat and sell the standard 496's ??
10-16-2007, 12:10 PM
#28
the Flightmaster
Platinum Member
Every man to his own, Iīd say.
Its pretty simple really - if you get a kick out of building your own package up, and are prepared to set it up and test run it, to get all the bugs out, thereīs lots of power potential in both Raylar and Dustinīs kits.
Having read through the assembly and settup manual for the Whipple 525 kit ( 750 hp, yes, I looked at it seriously over the winter) , it looks like all the bases are covered and it would be a lot of fun to do.
I just would be careful of mixing too many good things together, only to become the unpaid test pilot. Oil spewing out of the breathers, mid season, and every one you ask says it must be the other guys component!
Its not how fast you are, but how long you are fast.....right?
Great thread!
Its pretty simple really - if you get a kick out of building your own package up, and are prepared to set it up and test run it, to get all the bugs out, thereīs lots of power potential in both Raylar and Dustinīs kits.
Having read through the assembly and settup manual for the Whipple 525 kit ( 750 hp, yes, I looked at it seriously over the winter) , it looks like all the bases are covered and it would be a lot of fun to do.
I just would be careful of mixing too many good things together, only to become the unpaid test pilot. Oil spewing out of the breathers, mid season, and every one you ask says it must be the other guys component!
Its not how fast you are, but how long you are fast.....right?
Great thread!
10-16-2007, 12:25 PM
#29
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So a new (current) 525 is going to involve a new wiring harness with a 06 496 setup? How much longer do you think they will be producing the 525? I assume time is limited with the C.A.R.B. laws coming in the next year.
Buy now? What's the price of a new 525 from Merc these days? Rebuilt ones probably save you some coin.
Buy now? What's the price of a new 525 from Merc these days? Rebuilt ones probably save you some coin.
10-16-2007, 01:57 PM
#30
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Dustin,
You mention: "Mercury's new software shows the knock signal in Mhz, this should be monitored." Is this software for the PCM555 and if so how does one go about monitoring the knock signal?
You mention: "Since were talking about 496's, timing is not adjustable so thats the only parameter you can truly view to make sure it's right." Can you change/reprogram the PCM555 spark timing?
You mention: "Mercury's new software shows the knock signal in Mhz, this should be monitored." Is this software for the PCM555 and if so how does one go about monitoring the knock signal?
You mention: "Since were talking about 496's, timing is not adjustable so thats the only parameter you can truly view to make sure it's right." Can you change/reprogram the PCM555 spark timing?
And how is this the best? By controling fuel via a regulator and 80psi of fuel psi, where injectors are wide open at 4000rpm? Or are you talking about removing the entire fuel system, upgrading to 60lb fuel injectors, getting new MEFI computer, tuning software, wiring harness and recalibrating the system? Because anything over 3.5psi with a Procharger is asking for trouble unless the fuel/pcm system is modified heavily.
A PC makes plenty of power, but if you're not controling the fuel flow, spark, coil power, etc, then your're not going to make it when boost levels rise above the standard 3.5. Then, if you modify the heads, camshaft, etc., you've changed the VE of the engine (how the 555 computes fueling) and therefore your going to have area's lean and rich. Might have too much cylinder psi in one spot which requires less timing, and vice versa for power. Then you get into the knock system, which is calculated off of load, so once you change the motor, the load changes, and therefore it's not accurate anymore. Then, if your injectors are too small, and stock ones are when going past 3.5psi (upgraded ones are too small as well), then you have no detonation fuel control, as at WOT, the injectors are wide open, there's only fuel psi pushing more fuel in, no way to go richer if detonation occurs.
I'm the only person that reprograms these computers in the marine/aftermarket. I love when I see people saying the pistons won't make it, or the motor will fall apart. The pistons can take the abuse if setup properly. Detonation is what kills them, so the system needs to be conservative, and you need to stay in the parameters the mfg's state.
Dyno's don't always prove a motor's setup correctly, especially since most can't run wet exhaust. If you set your engine up on a dyno without your exahust, or the exact same as your exhaust, your going to have to do the same thing again in the boat. The boat is the real world, it can be simulated, but most are not equipped for such a thing. If the dyno uses your exhaust, your fuel pump, your fuel lines, regulator, coil, etc. then, yes, this is an excellent way to set your motor up.
If you want to setup any package right, you should install a air fuel meter in the collector of the exhaust (either side), and with a quality wide band air fuel meter, you can creep up to different rpm/load points and verify that your air fuel is correct. Since were talking about 496's, timing is not adjustable so thats the only parameter you can truly view to make sure it's right. On 500's, you have a bit more adjustment. You should also run with a proper scan tool or scan software. Mercury's new software shows the knock signal in Mhz, this should be monitored. On the 500s, "knock retard" should be monitored. This tells you if the motor is detonating.
One single "Detonation" event does not typically kill motors, it's prolonged abuse, maybe this is 5 seconds, or 20 seconds, or 5 minutes. Therefore, better parts, such as forged vs. cast, cometic gasket vs. graphite gasket, etc. all increase the length of detonation, but typically does not stop it. Therefore, if it's not right, it will still fail, it's just when.
To answer the question in regards to packages, the Raylar package makes good power and is to some degree conservative because it's not superchargerd. The Procharger system, which I don't think is available, does a good effective job at 3.5psi, but leaves you little room in future without big expense. The Whipple is certainly not as conservative as Raylar, but similar to PC, other than higher boost levels, 5-6psi, which is fine when the computer is programmed properly and the fuel system can keep up.
Thanks,
Dustin
A PC makes plenty of power, but if you're not controling the fuel flow, spark, coil power, etc, then your're not going to make it when boost levels rise above the standard 3.5. Then, if you modify the heads, camshaft, etc., you've changed the VE of the engine (how the 555 computes fueling) and therefore your going to have area's lean and rich. Might have too much cylinder psi in one spot which requires less timing, and vice versa for power. Then you get into the knock system, which is calculated off of load, so once you change the motor, the load changes, and therefore it's not accurate anymore. Then, if your injectors are too small, and stock ones are when going past 3.5psi (upgraded ones are too small as well), then you have no detonation fuel control, as at WOT, the injectors are wide open, there's only fuel psi pushing more fuel in, no way to go richer if detonation occurs.
I'm the only person that reprograms these computers in the marine/aftermarket. I love when I see people saying the pistons won't make it, or the motor will fall apart. The pistons can take the abuse if setup properly. Detonation is what kills them, so the system needs to be conservative, and you need to stay in the parameters the mfg's state.
Dyno's don't always prove a motor's setup correctly, especially since most can't run wet exhaust. If you set your engine up on a dyno without your exahust, or the exact same as your exhaust, your going to have to do the same thing again in the boat. The boat is the real world, it can be simulated, but most are not equipped for such a thing. If the dyno uses your exhaust, your fuel pump, your fuel lines, regulator, coil, etc. then, yes, this is an excellent way to set your motor up.
If you want to setup any package right, you should install a air fuel meter in the collector of the exhaust (either side), and with a quality wide band air fuel meter, you can creep up to different rpm/load points and verify that your air fuel is correct. Since were talking about 496's, timing is not adjustable so thats the only parameter you can truly view to make sure it's right. On 500's, you have a bit more adjustment. You should also run with a proper scan tool or scan software. Mercury's new software shows the knock signal in Mhz, this should be monitored. On the 500s, "knock retard" should be monitored. This tells you if the motor is detonating.
One single "Detonation" event does not typically kill motors, it's prolonged abuse, maybe this is 5 seconds, or 20 seconds, or 5 minutes. Therefore, better parts, such as forged vs. cast, cometic gasket vs. graphite gasket, etc. all increase the length of detonation, but typically does not stop it. Therefore, if it's not right, it will still fail, it's just when.
To answer the question in regards to packages, the Raylar package makes good power and is to some degree conservative because it's not superchargerd. The Procharger system, which I don't think is available, does a good effective job at 3.5psi, but leaves you little room in future without big expense. The Whipple is certainly not as conservative as Raylar, but similar to PC, other than higher boost levels, 5-6psi, which is fine when the computer is programmed properly and the fuel system can keep up.
Thanks,
Dustin
