Copper in the Oil Analysis
11-12-2010 | 08:56 AM
#21
Beak botr
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 891
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From: Cape Coral
I am no expert, but if the problem does turn out to be the thrust bearing in the engine, and everything else is perfect including the coupler and splines and the lubing is perfect, below is something to think about.
Fact: Going to WFO then trimming out results in the highest load transfer from the coupler to the drive input spline as you throw all the torque the engine has at the connection, even a perfectly lubed spline fit under heavy load is extremely hard to move the slight distance the shaft has to move (inside the coupler) as the drive goes up.
1) Try trimming prior to full power. (this works for me, and since I know what setting results in top speed, I just trim it there and then nail the sticks)
or
2) Apply power, increase speed, slightly back off, trim, then back into the throttle. This can be done in rapid order, as you are just trying to unload the connection prior to moving the drive. (this is what I would do if I could not trim first)
Of course, you could just fix it and then run it like you stole it and perhaps NEVER have another problem.
I like to take it easy, I must go fast, but I realize that most other boats out there are going to outrun me anyway so the few extra seconds my method adds is not important.
11-12-2010 | 06:30 PM
#22
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 931
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From: Little River SC
You may have problems with your bearings, but if you did I feel for sure you would already have a serious problem by now. I would check my valve guides for excessive wear, side loading the guide. Who did you purchase the guides from? Are they guide liners or a full guide with a shoulder, there are cheaps ones and quality ones that are of a certified materal.
C.H.E. ,CV Products, Precision Products, are a few of the quality ones , K Line offers liners.
If you decked the block, surfaced the heads changed the cam along with rocker arms, you may have changed the contact and load pattern on the valve.
C.H.E. ,CV Products, Precision Products, are a few of the quality ones , K Line offers liners.
If you decked the block, surfaced the heads changed the cam along with rocker arms, you may have changed the contact and load pattern on the valve.
11-13-2010 | 08:13 AM
#23
Thread Starter
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,987
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From: Missouri
You may have problems with your bearings, but if you did I feel for sure you would already have a serious problem by now. I would check my valve guides for excessive wear, side loading the guide. Who did you purchase the guides from? Are they guide liners or a full guide with a shoulder, there are cheaps ones and quality ones that are of a certified materal.
C.H.E. ,CV Products, Precision Products, are a few of the quality ones , K Line offers liners.
If you decked the block, surfaced the heads changed the cam along with rocker arms, you may have changed the contact and load pattern on the valve.
C.H.E. ,CV Products, Precision Products, are a few of the quality ones , K Line offers liners.
If you decked the block, surfaced the heads changed the cam along with rocker arms, you may have changed the contact and load pattern on the valve.
I decked the block 0.010" but rechecked the rocker arm roller contact on the valve stem and it was still dead center.
Thanks for the comments.
11-13-2010 | 08:24 AM
#24
Thread Starter
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,987
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From: Missouri
I am no expert, but if the problem does turn out to be the thrust bearing in the engine, and everything else is perfect including the coupler and splines and the lubing is perfect, below is something to think about.
Fact: Going to WFO then trimming out results in the highest load transfer from the coupler to the drive input spline as you throw all the torque the engine has at the connection, even a perfectly lubed spline fit under heavy load is extremely hard to move the slight distance the shaft has to move (inside the coupler) as the drive goes up.
1) Try trimming prior to full power. (this works for me, and since I know what setting results in top speed, I just trim it there and then nail the sticks)
or
2) Apply power, increase speed, slightly back off, trim, then back into the throttle. This can be done in rapid order, as you are just trying to unload the connection prior to moving the drive. (this is what I would do if I could not trim first)
Of course, you could just fix it and then run it like you stole it and perhaps NEVER have another problem.
I like to take it easy, I must go fast, but I realize that most other boats out there are going to outrun me anyway so the few extra seconds my method adds is not important.
Fact: Going to WFO then trimming out results in the highest load transfer from the coupler to the drive input spline as you throw all the torque the engine has at the connection, even a perfectly lubed spline fit under heavy load is extremely hard to move the slight distance the shaft has to move (inside the coupler) as the drive goes up.
1) Try trimming prior to full power. (this works for me, and since I know what setting results in top speed, I just trim it there and then nail the sticks)
or
2) Apply power, increase speed, slightly back off, trim, then back into the throttle. This can be done in rapid order, as you are just trying to unload the connection prior to moving the drive. (this is what I would do if I could not trim first)
Of course, you could just fix it and then run it like you stole it and perhaps NEVER have another problem.
I like to take it easy, I must go fast, but I realize that most other boats out there are going to outrun me anyway so the few extra seconds my method adds is not important.
11-13-2010 | 08:37 AM
#25
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Joined: Sep 2005
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From: Missouri
I have not completed gathering all the pertinate information yet. One additional point......Monday I hope to learn from the manufacturer if there is a significant amount of lead in the copper + lead metal matrix of the bearings in my engine. If the % lead in the bearings is significant then the oil analysis should have shown the lead levels increased along with the increase in the copper if the source was in fact from the bearings.
TBC
TBC
11-13-2010 | 09:14 AM
#26
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Joined: Sep 2005
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From: Missouri
I thought that I saw a small hole in the end of the coupler's female splined receiver for the drive's male splinded shaft. I assumed that hole was to allow excess grease to escape to prevent hydraulic lock. Can anyone confirm this?
11-17-2010 | 01:04 PM
#27
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Joined: Sep 2005
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From: Missouri
In brief Blackstone Labs now is saying that the copper oil cooler could be a continuing source of high copper in the oil (they see this on a random basis ( ~40 units out of 100) with the GM Duramax diesels that have a copper oil cooler and say some oils seem to leach copper out of the copper oil coolers more than others). Blackstone Labs is also saying that the fact that I installed new valve springs and disturbed the copper plated valve spring shims while this oil was in the engine could also be the source.
Clevite just advised that my Clevite 77 H bearing's metal matrix is 75% copper and 25% lead. Since the oil analysis showed no increase in lead proportional to the increase in copper it can not be the bearings. Yeah!
Thanks to all for their input.
Clevite just advised that my Clevite 77 H bearing's metal matrix is 75% copper and 25% lead. Since the oil analysis showed no increase in lead proportional to the increase in copper it can not be the bearings. Yeah!
Thanks to all for their input.
06-11-2012 | 09:15 PM
#28
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I've been seeing the same problem on my engine. All was well for 200 or so hours after the engine rebuild, now i'm seeing copper increasing. Was consistently in the teens, now it's going up - last 6 samples showed copper at 14, 17, 18, 45, 54, 61. No significant mechanical work done in that time - stock 502 mag with a rebuild about 385 hours ago now.
Decided to do a search on OSO and found this thread. Wondering if anyone else has the same engine, and if it is in fact hte oil leeching copper from the cooler if there was a change in the merc 25w40 formulation that could have caused it. I have been running longer oil fills lately (still around 25 hours, but I'm using the boat less frequently the last few years) so the oil sitting in the cooler longer could explain this, if this is in fact the case. Looks like it first came up around 08, but I skipped the oil analysis on a few samples (from 229 to 336 hours)
Decided to do a search on OSO and found this thread. Wondering if anyone else has the same engine, and if it is in fact hte oil leeching copper from the cooler if there was a change in the merc 25w40 formulation that could have caused it. I have been running longer oil fills lately (still around 25 hours, but I'm using the boat less frequently the last few years) so the oil sitting in the cooler longer could explain this, if this is in fact the case. Looks like it first came up around 08, but I skipped the oil analysis on a few samples (from 229 to 336 hours)
Last edited by sleeper_dave; 06-11-2012 at 09:23 PM.
06-12-2012 | 12:54 AM
#29
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And it does not slide in the coupler while trimming. If it did, you would never be able to keep those o-rings in place after few hours.. The u-joint takes the movement.
06-12-2012 | 07:24 AM
#30
Gold Member
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,748
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From: Delray Beach, FL
This is the third season on the engine re build. Engine started as a stock 2004 Merc 496HO and was built to 625hp NA three seasons ago.
The crank bearings are now the Dana Clevite 77 'H' tri metal (copper and lead matrix on steel backing). The heads are the iron 496 heads with new bronze valve guides and spring loaded Vitron valve stem seals.
The first season 36 hours oil analysis was copper/lead of 13/5 ppm
The second season 59 hours oil analysis was copper/lead of 199/10 ppm but a new Hardin Marine 3x18 copper&bronze oil cooler had been installed which likely contributed (so I thought) to the spike in copper disolved in the oil from copper oxide contained in the new oil cooler.
The third season 67 hours oil analysis was copper/lead of 261/8 ppm.
Previous three seasons oil analysis was copper/lead of 10/3, 35/10, 48,16 ppm all with the same OEM bearings made of aluminum metal marrix ie no copper or lead. After the first season the heads were replaced with the current heads with bronze valve guide sleeves and the spring loaded Vitron valve stem seals.
Where besides the crank bearings can copper come from and show up in the oil analysis? I am asking this because there was no increase of lead in the oil that would be expected if the copper increase came from the bearings.
The crank bearings are now the Dana Clevite 77 'H' tri metal (copper and lead matrix on steel backing). The heads are the iron 496 heads with new bronze valve guides and spring loaded Vitron valve stem seals.
The first season 36 hours oil analysis was copper/lead of 13/5 ppm
The second season 59 hours oil analysis was copper/lead of 199/10 ppm but a new Hardin Marine 3x18 copper&bronze oil cooler had been installed which likely contributed (so I thought) to the spike in copper disolved in the oil from copper oxide contained in the new oil cooler.
The third season 67 hours oil analysis was copper/lead of 261/8 ppm.
Previous three seasons oil analysis was copper/lead of 10/3, 35/10, 48,16 ppm all with the same OEM bearings made of aluminum metal marrix ie no copper or lead. After the first season the heads were replaced with the current heads with bronze valve guide sleeves and the spring loaded Vitron valve stem seals.
Where besides the crank bearings can copper come from and show up in the oil analysis? I am asking this because there was no increase of lead in the oil that would be expected if the copper increase came from the bearings.
OR
With numbers like you are seeing I would suspect something significant? Can you pour your drain oil out and pour it through a paper filter to see if there is particulate? Then you know you have a problem.
