Whipple vs. Procharger
 

I currently have a 502 (509) Dart block engine with a 250 blower. I have 605hp at 5500rpm with 7 lbs of boost. No intercooler because there is no room in my engine compartment. I want at least 850hp. I need something low profile so I don't have to cut my engine hatch. The Whipple Quad cost almost twice as much as the procharger kit with intercooler. Should I go with whipple or procharger? Or, should I modify my motor and keep the 250 blower?

Something might be off with your current combo.. Your power seems a little low. The Procharger will make more power then the Whipple every time.

I would go n/a and skip the blowers. Unless you plan on upgrading your drive to scx or equal. after 550-600 hp say good buy to bravo stuff.

I'm fixing that problem. I'm planning on going with Arneson Surface Drives.

Check out www.stevemorrisengines.com/

I got 843hp @ 5600rpm with a M3SC using 088 heads and stock rotating assembly. Got 4 seasons on it. The good thing about the PC is your not always in boost.

Fixx
 

+1,, also they are not as hard on the drives under 2500 rpm's..if you have the room in front of the engine go with a crank mount set up..wikked!http://www.cachassisworks.com/cac_su...rgerdrive.html

change your Heads to Dart Pro 1 CNC 335....with a 509 those heads and the right cam and 8lbs boost... 800hp+ would be no problem...if your choosing a blower the Whipple is the best choice.. easy to program vs the procharger(pain in the A**) and the benifits of adding a intercooler in you curent engine compartment ...4.0L whipple w/MOAC would be the right choice

How is a Whipple any easier to program then a procharger? What EFI control system do they come with? With the procharger you wouldn't need to spend the money on the heads to make 800+HP and you could do a simple blow thru set up if you didn't want the extra cost of an EFI system.

My sentiments too, if you run efi they both need to have efi mapping done to have it right in most applications, I own a pc but I think the whipples look much better BUT I'm not into looks, i'm into hp, Smitty

Yep, and if you don't have an EFI engine you'll need a stand alone system for either one, that's why I questioned the "whipples are easier to tune" comment. If you can't make huge power easily with a centrifigul and have excellent driveability with good docking manners, then you are doing something wrong...


As an upgrade to a factory efi engine the whipple kits are tough to beat and Dustin's tunes are excellent. But it's pretty obvious by now which one makes more power.

yeap...putting mine together right now..HP500 +.030 509 M3SC...was on a EFI swithing to a pro systems blow thru carb...much easier to tune than the merc ECM's

Why not heads?

The crank mount set up is cool, but what if you need a pulley for your waterpump and hydraulic steering? I am not an engine builder.:party-smiley-004:

That was a response to 47Excalibur who suggested you'd need Dart Pro1 335cnc heads and a 4.0l Whipple to make 800+. Normally he gives cam specs too, but I didn't see them this time... :grinser010:

If you wanted to spend the money on those heads you could, but with a procharger it wouldn't be necessary and in my opinion are too big for a 509. I made 1305hp with a 555 running as cast AFR 325's and an M4 on 92 octane. Look at Kennyo's post and the power he made with factory iron heads. Procharger's rock! :drink:

If pro chargers and whipples were the same cost the answer is much simpler. The reason is pretty strait forward. Very few would pick a pro charger over a whipple for the same money. I have a quad rotor and I have yet to hear anyone say they bought a whipple to save money. They buy whipples for simplicity and looks. I believe the whipple with the calmap efi system from dfi is the best setup going, but far from the cheapest. That comes from someone who doesn't particularly care for Dustin Whipple. :drink:

Try keeping something factual. "Every time"? Pretty bold statement.

PC does not make more power, the SC efficiencies are nearly identical when compared size for size. It comes down to supercharger size, intercooler size, engine combo and proper setup.

As for setup, on carb's, theres no question a Whipple is easier to tune and doesn't require "special" setups such as blow-thru styles. For EFI, there pretty much equal for calibration work, both require custom calibrations for custom applications.

Better cylinder heads always help a combo. But by no means "required". The stock 525's make nearly 800hp and they have Edelbrock heads (although not as good as standard Edelbrock BB heads). It doesn't matter what SC you have, a better flowing cylinder head will make more power or the same power with increased reliability. Lowering the inlet restriction lowers parasitic losses as well as manifold temp, while increasing flow.

I'll stand by that statement and take the challenge anytime...

Heres a question for you blower guys. A friend of mine just built some 522CI M4 or M5? intercooled procharger engines. They made like 1100HP on 10psi, with the edelbrock aluminum heads. However, at like 3200RPM, he was only making roughly 600HP or so. Then the boost came in, like a sledgehammer, and really starting making big power.

My question is, lets say he runs 1100hp a side, and needs some 36-38P props. How is that boat going to plane off, say trying to turn some 38p props while at 3000RPM or so trying to get on plane? Is it going to be a situation where the engines wont have the power to lay the boat over at that RPM, so in turn he will need to throttle down, and then send 900+ft lbs thru his drives while getting on plane?

The dyno numbers on some of the procharged stuff impresses me. I've only dealt with Roots style blowers, and while they don't make as much power, they do seem to be pretty darn reliable in the marine world. I am curious as to why builders like ZUL, Cheif, Potter, Wesco, Young, etc, still use roots and screw type blowers?

I am current owner of both a M4 procharger boat and a boat with whipples. Both have interccolers. Procharger's boost goes up as rpm goes up. In my boat just off idle I can only get max of 2 lbs of boost. At WOT around 5600-5800 rpm's I am pulling 10 lbs of boost. Once on plane running 2000 rpm, if I nail the throttle, motor will go to 4k and then start climbing from there. Higher rpm, higher boost. I feel the low torque of the procharger at low rpm has helped make the bravo live. When planing I have to sit and wait for boat to gain enough speed/rpm/boost to get on plane with correct prop for max rpm.

Whipple motor, If I care to melt the bravo I can do right off idle by nailing the throttles. I can pull what ever boost to max, I want to right off idle. Whipple boat I have to remember to go lightly on throttles to help make bravo live. Never have problem having power to plane.

As far as engine cover, I now have had 3 boats I have had to raise engine hatch on. Each one I have raised enough to get the motor to clear without the cover looking like it has been raised up.

For engine life I would make sure you install an intercooler if you are looking for 800 hp unless you want to run race gas all the time.

600hp at 3200rpm is about 1000lbs torque. I think he'll be ok getting on plane. I'm pretty sure you can remove one of the names from the list of "builders"

Prochargers are gaining in popularity and I think you will see them becoming more mainstream. Procharger as a company did a really bad job early on with their kits and marketing and are still suffering from it, but their units are awesome. Lots of people have had a hard time making centrifiguls work because they applied old techniques and blamed the blower when it didn't work. Roots blowers look cool and make stout power no doubt but the ease of maintenance and longevity on the new centrifiguls as well as very cheap overhaul costs, multiple mounting configurations, better low speed driving characteristics, etc. make them tough to beat. Prochargers and EFI are the chit! Until turbos come in user friendly kits and kick everyones azz..

If you need more than 1200 hp to get any boat on plane you forgot to undo the lines from the dock !!!!!!!!! You will find that you do not need the power to get on plane but to turn the big props at higher rpm . As for the big name builders I think that you will find that they spent a lot of time and money perfecting the engine management system's to work with the current blower set ups. And are building what they know works good for them . But I do know that chief offers turbo kit's or complete turbo engines as well.:drink:

3500hp has been made many times with our A980 and PSI C and D combo's. Yet, they have 50+psi at the hit of throttle. Why deal with the lag, if so, go turbo and make 4500hp! Not sure how thats any comparison. The new race SC's were finishing will generate another 300-500hp over current competition. New rotor profile and rotor technology.

Bad job in marketing? Maybe it was the fact that they supply EFI kits with "FMU's" and one-way check valves to trick the PCM to not set MAP HI codes. Come on, the one thing Procharger has done is created a market for tuners to fix all there issues. The SC's themselves make power, but the quality of the kit componets, welded aluminum intercoolers and lack of any EFI support has been the crutch.

When you add the proper ECM calibrations, fuel systems, etc., the kits are the same price as ours. How about resale of the boats, talk to any boat dealer or mfg and they run from a boat that has a PC on it, can't hardly sale them.

How can a company claim to be "pro's" or "experts" when they can't even offer a proper PCM calibration? I can list hundreds of issues just on 496's alone, let alone 500hp, 502 mag's....... In most cases, PC doesn't even have knock protection because its off in the factory cals.

When its carb motors, if you got a good carb setup guy for a blow through, then they can work pretty good, but on the EFI side, there light years behind and should be held accountable for selling systems that literally have very little chance of success! Big intercoolers can't fix ignorance. Computer controlled fuel injected motors need to work WITH the SC, not against it.

I had the pleasure of being in the same houseboat dock for 2 years with the owner of ATI (Poorcharger) 3 seasons ago in Missouri. I have a very hard time accepting the fact that the system even remotely works after a few conversations with him. Hiring help that is smarter than you has to be a company motto.

Bingo! Vo-Tech students understand EFI better.

I wasn't saying anything either way, just posted something I found. I still think the "power adder", supercharger whatever has to fit the application and budget.

In reading articles about Whipplechargers many years ago, I thought that the big advantage was that they were the most efficient compressors available. I.E. they take less HP to compress a given amount of air, and cause less heat buildup in doing it. Keep in mind that Whipple did not invent this device- he got it from a Swiss or Swedish company that built them for use in refrigeration. He adapted them for use in engines.

If you look at the recent generation of A/C compressors for residential use, the better / more expensive / more efficient models use scroll type compressors. Looking at this further, I find that Lysholm/Eaton partnered in this after the split or SRM from Opcon (the swedish company) and the Eaton supercharger (same as the Whipple it seems) is used in many GM cars. I have never seen a centrigufal SC used in a OEM application, so that tends to call into question its cost-effectiveness.

Disclaimer- I do not own a SC boat at this time, but have an Eaton equiped car.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scroll_compressor

The twin screw was invented for use on internal combustion engines and it later found many other uses.

We did not invent, but we have certainly pioneered the use. We've also come out with our own designs including new profiles. Previous generations were units that we helped develop but did not mfg. We did pay for Lysholm's original development.

Lysholm and Eaton partnered for the Ford GT program and a failed attempt at supplying Mercedes SC'd vehicles. Lysholm went bankrupt last year.

Our SC has no common componets of an Eaton or a Lysholm. Every componet is different in one way or another.

Every SC has its own key features and applications, so its difficult to compare. But when testing compressors of equal flow capacity, the twin screw always has higher total AE, not by much, but it is in fact higher. The centrifugal have slightly better thermal efficiency but take more power to drive. This is not he said, she said, this is the facts. The rest is about the "package". If the system or package isn't the correct fit, then its not going to produce optimal performance, goes both ways.

now there's a man who puts his $$$$$$$$$$$$ where his mouth is .

I never had any issues with my welded innercooler BUT I will agree 100% with the fact that Prochargers customer support and FMU's/tuning bandaid's are a real joke!! Would I still buy one, with my current capabilitys and tuing skills, yes. Would I reccomend one to a beginner who is going to bolt it on in his driveway and expect it to run without help from a tuner, HELL NO!!

Very well said. I have probably tuned more Procharger marine EFI engines on our Dyno than anyone, do they work yes they can, but not the way you get them from Prochager. In my opinion the Whipple kit is much more of a complete kit with included ecm tunning, better intercoolers, much better torque curve for marine use, and much better customer support. I would recommend the Whippel over the Prochager in almost every application.

Mark

I don't think there's any question as to which kit is better. I have said it in other threads as well. The last Whipple kits I got even came with a tube of silicone and an allen wrench.

What seems to have gotten Dustin and some others a little excited was my statement that Prochargers will make more power then a Whipple. I have heard lots of talk about torque curves but have yet to see a well built procharged engine have any difficulty making masive torque. Dustin, when I say prochargers make more power it's in reference to marine engines on pump gas. It's great that you talk about blown alchohol engines running A980's and psi's but that has little in common with pump gas marine engines, might as well compare turbines.

I still stand by my statement.

Dustin, what did your "Eat your hearts out turbos" motors make on pump gas?

Here is my dyno sheet from my M4 Procharger You can't tell me they don't make power

Eaton has supplied superchargers for a number of GM cars, including the Chevy Cobalt SS, Saturn ION Redline, Saturn Sky Redline, various Buicks, and probably a few others I cannot recall. Looking at the internals they seem to be similar but not identical- I can see where the Eaton has a number of simplified parts from a machining point of view (i.e. reducing cost). The Whipple certainly looks more attractive :)

What are you running for heads, cam and fuel system ? can your boat and drive handle 850 hp if you can make it ?

So far in this game I still like the roots blower better in a carb set up.

I have had no luck with a procharger or there suport.

I think as it stands right now prochargers EFI setup is more of a bandaid..but are getting better....thats why I am switching mine to a carb setup...having a pro systems blow thru carb built as we speak....but on the H/P deal where this started...prochargers rule the H/P wars at the drag strip..period !! I know we are talking boats...but sheer H/P from them is unreal...