EFI for everyone
03-13-2012, 11:10 AM
#151
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My comment about a 12yr old being able to tune a fuel curve with EFI was just to illustrate how simple it can be. Say you've got a a carb'd 540 and at WOT it goes pig rich between 3500rpm and 4500rpm. Do you make an air bleed change, jet, power valve, a combo? Then retest and see how it effected the rest of the curve and try to get it as close as possible. Now with EFI select the exact cells it's reading during that rpm, subtract 10 or 15% fuel as necessary and you're done. It won't effect the rest of the curve, you didn't have to spill fuel everywhere, you didn't even have to open the engine hatch. As far as the self learning feature, the best tuners in the world can't compete with a computer. A few years ago FAST went head to head with their auto tune vs. a couple of their own engineers on a dyno. After two pulls the auto tune had made 10 more average hp then the tuners could after a dozen pulls. In the engine masters challenge guys were letting engines that they'd developed tunes on for months self correct during the competition and were picking up hp. Land speed record attempts, self tuning for both runs, 3500hp twin turbo alcohol drag cars are self tuning down the track. To be afraid of this feature you'd have to be suspect of the entire system. The system runs in closed loop and corrects off of your base map. It shows the corrections on a separate table. You can load the corrections on to your base automatically or you can go in and make corrections manually based on the info provided in your learn table. It is a simplified version of the old way of overlaying histograms and doing some math. Once you've used it a couple times you'll never go back to the old slow ways.. 
You know my set-up, would it be practical and/or beneficial to install the basic Holley system? The current system runs pretty good but we both know the "issue" with the "stumble" at around 5000rpm.......just wondering what you think and if it would be $$$ wisely spent...?
From what I have read I am guessing I would need the ECM, harness and O2 sensor? I am not really interested in a monitor etc..... I have a bung already installed and upgraded fuel system so I think I am good to go there? Are my stock injectors enough and anything I am overlooking? Thanks, Jeremy
03-13-2012, 11:41 AM
#152
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Not disagreeing with what you said in any way. My point was I'm still going to look at the base map and self learned corrections after they have taken place. I'm willing to bet that almost any engine builder worth his salt would want to too.
So the point is, that to do so, you still need to understand the many of the basics of how much spark vs rpm vs load, AFR, etc your engine should want to see.
I'm in no way trying to take away from the potential this system has. In fact, I'm already looking at how to integrate the Holley system into some other avenues of our business and complete some real world tests.
I'm just not sure if the self learn tuning feature will be completely plug and play for the average guy in his garage at home, everytime, by himself, with limited knowledge about performance engines and their requirements. Perhaps time and some testing will prove me to be wrong about that. Forgive me for being a little cautious and relying solely on an aftermarket knock sensor, as one example of the automated process. We've all seen those sensors react under real world conditions other than knock due to vibration, harmonics, etc in a performance application. Street cars and engines in a dyno room live in a different enviroment.
If the self learn feature is 100% reliable and foolproof, and that does indeed end up being the case, this system should take the aftermarket EFI world by storm.
It would be the first one I've seen work properly every single time, and I'll be singing its praises to anyone who will listen.
Along with selling a crap load of them, because this will be something that no one else has really got right yet
I truly hope it can do all of those things, reliably, every time. That would really be a game changer in aftermarket EFI.
So the point is, that to do so, you still need to understand the many of the basics of how much spark vs rpm vs load, AFR, etc your engine should want to see.
I'm in no way trying to take away from the potential this system has. In fact, I'm already looking at how to integrate the Holley system into some other avenues of our business and complete some real world tests.
I'm just not sure if the self learn tuning feature will be completely plug and play for the average guy in his garage at home, everytime, by himself, with limited knowledge about performance engines and their requirements. Perhaps time and some testing will prove me to be wrong about that. Forgive me for being a little cautious and relying solely on an aftermarket knock sensor, as one example of the automated process. We've all seen those sensors react under real world conditions other than knock due to vibration, harmonics, etc in a performance application. Street cars and engines in a dyno room live in a different enviroment.
If the self learn feature is 100% reliable and foolproof, and that does indeed end up being the case, this system should take the aftermarket EFI world by storm.
It would be the first one I've seen work properly every single time, and I'll be singing its praises to anyone who will listen.
Along with selling a crap load of them, because this will be something that no one else has really got right yet
I truly hope it can do all of those things, reliably, every time. That would really be a game changer in aftermarket EFI.
03-13-2012, 12:24 PM
#153
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Not disagreeing with what you said in any way. My point was I'm still going to look at the base map and self learned corrections after they have taken place. I'm willing to bet that almost any engine builder worth his salt would want to too.
So the point is, that to do so, you still need to understand the many of the basics of how much spark vs rpm vs load, AFR, etc your engine should want to see.
I'm in no way trying to take away from the potential this system has. In fact, I'm already looking at how to integrate the Holley system into some other avenues of our business and complete some real world tests.
I'm just not sure if the self learn tuning feature will be completely plug and play for the average guy in his garage at home, everytime, by himself, with limited knowledge about performance engines and their requirements. Perhaps time and some testing will prove me to be wrong about that. Forgive me for being a little cautious and relying solely on an aftermarket knock sensor, as one example of the automated process. We've all seen those sensors react under real world conditions other than knock due to vibration, harmonics, etc in a performance application. Street cars and engines in a dyno room live in a different enviroment.
If the self learn feature is 100% reliable and foolproof, and that does indeed end up being the case, this system should take the aftermarket EFI world by storm.
It would be the first one I've seen work properly every single time, and I'll be singing its praises to anyone who will listen.
Along with selling a crap load of them, because this will be something that no one else has really got right yet
I truly hope it can do all of those things, reliably, every time. That would really be a game changer in aftermarket EFI.
So the point is, that to do so, you still need to understand the many of the basics of how much spark vs rpm vs load, AFR, etc your engine should want to see.
I'm in no way trying to take away from the potential this system has. In fact, I'm already looking at how to integrate the Holley system into some other avenues of our business and complete some real world tests.
I'm just not sure if the self learn tuning feature will be completely plug and play for the average guy in his garage at home, everytime, by himself, with limited knowledge about performance engines and their requirements. Perhaps time and some testing will prove me to be wrong about that. Forgive me for being a little cautious and relying solely on an aftermarket knock sensor, as one example of the automated process. We've all seen those sensors react under real world conditions other than knock due to vibration, harmonics, etc in a performance application. Street cars and engines in a dyno room live in a different enviroment.
If the self learn feature is 100% reliable and foolproof, and that does indeed end up being the case, this system should take the aftermarket EFI world by storm.
It would be the first one I've seen work properly every single time, and I'll be singing its praises to anyone who will listen.
Along with selling a crap load of them, because this will be something that no one else has really got right yet
I truly hope it can do all of those things, reliably, every time. That would really be a game changer in aftermarket EFI.
Also, for guys like yourself the knock sensors are fully tuneable to your specific engine's "noise" so you can make them as sensitive as you like. I think you'll like how simple it is, but also how many features it has. Please let everyone know what you think if you try it.
03-13-2012, 12:34 PM
#154
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So now you tell me about this stuff.....
You know my set-up, would it be practical and/or beneficial to install the basic Holley system? The current system runs pretty good but we both know the "issue" with the "stumble" at around 5000rpm.......just wondering what you think and if it would be $$$ wisely spent...?
From what I have read I am guessing I would need the ECM, harness and O2 sensor? I am not really interested in a monitor etc..... I have a bung already installed and upgraded fuel system so I think I am good to go there? Are my stock injectors enough and anything I am overlooking? Thanks, Jeremy
You know my set-up, would it be practical and/or beneficial to install the basic Holley system? The current system runs pretty good but we both know the "issue" with the "stumble" at around 5000rpm.......just wondering what you think and if it would be $$$ wisely spent...?
From what I have read I am guessing I would need the ECM, harness and O2 sensor? I am not really interested in a monitor etc..... I have a bung already installed and upgraded fuel system so I think I am good to go there? Are my stock injectors enough and anything I am overlooking? Thanks, Jeremy
03-13-2012, 03:29 PM
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Haxby - I have read and reread this thread a couple times now, and am very impressed by what you have posted and what you have to offer. I have never even considered an EFI until I read all this.
Currently I am starting from scratch (long story...involves nonsense, lots of opinions, quite a bit of name calling and even an imaginary friend with secret info). I have already started ordering new components, but would like to talk to you about the possibilities of moving forward with tis system.
A word of warning - I have been called a moron and an idiot recently, so you may have to basically treat me like that 12 year old that you say can handle this system.
I will send you a pm, so we can see if this would be a fit for my upcoming project.
Thank you - keep up the good work.
Currently I am starting from scratch (long story...involves nonsense, lots of opinions, quite a bit of name calling and even an imaginary friend with secret info). I have already started ordering new components, but would like to talk to you about the possibilities of moving forward with tis system.
A word of warning - I have been called a moron and an idiot recently, so you may have to basically treat me like that 12 year old that you say can handle this system.
I will send you a pm, so we can see if this would be a fit for my upcoming project.
Thank you - keep up the good work.
03-13-2012, 03:45 PM
#156
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Currently I am starting from scratch (long story...involves nonsense, lots of opinions, quite a bit of name calling and even an imaginary friend with secret info). I have already started ordering new components, but would like to talk to you about the possibilities of moving forward with tis system.
A word of warning - I have been called a moron and an idiot recently, so you may have to basically treat me like that 12 year old that you say can handle this system.
A word of warning - I have been called a moron and an idiot recently, so you may have to basically treat me like that 12 year old that you say can handle this system.
03-13-2012, 04:33 PM
#157
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Haxby - I have read and reread this thread a couple times now, and am very impressed by what you have posted and what you have to offer. I have never even considered an EFI until I read all this.
Currently I am starting from scratch (long story...involves nonsense, lots of opinions, quite a bit of name calling and even an imaginary friend with secret info). I have already started ordering new components, but would like to talk to you about the possibilities of moving forward with tis system.
A word of warning - I have been called a moron and an idiot recently, so you may have to basically treat me like that 12 year old that you say can handle this system.
I will send you a pm, so we can see if this would be a fit for my upcoming project.
Thank you - keep up the good work.
Currently I am starting from scratch (long story...involves nonsense, lots of opinions, quite a bit of name calling and even an imaginary friend with secret info). I have already started ordering new components, but would like to talk to you about the possibilities of moving forward with tis system.
A word of warning - I have been called a moron and an idiot recently, so you may have to basically treat me like that 12 year old that you say can handle this system.
I will send you a pm, so we can see if this would be a fit for my upcoming project.
Thank you - keep up the good work.
03-13-2012, 07:18 PM
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Sounds good Yankey, if you want I can send you a system to try on the dyno. You can run it in with a carb on the MPI intake and make a couple pulls so you have a base line. Then swap the billet throttle body on in place of the carb and hook up the EFI. If you're happy with the system you can keep it and easily get your intakes modified for the fuel rails and send the MPI intake back to me. If for any reason it doesn't work for you just send the whole system back. I'm confident you'll keep it but at least this way there's no risk and I figure a guy like you deserves a break!
Talk to you soon.
03-14-2012, 12:42 AM
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Quick question Haxby. I have done a little poking around looking at the boxes and software. The only problem that I have with it is this. The way I understand it is that when running in sequential and you want to trim the fuel in one cylinder, it's an across the board change. Meaning you can't trim the fuel at a specific rpm or rpm range but must change it across the entire operating range. I may be wrong so please correct me if that's not right.
As you know, I use Mefi's and have used them almost exclusively for over 10 years. While I have a good handle on them and can tune them pretty quickly, I am not married to them. I really like the Mefi's and their relatively advanced knock protection(certainly for their time). That is the most important feature to me, especially in something making over 1300 hp on pump gas. I'm not interested in saving time or a few dollars (which I wouldn't since the mefi is cheaper). I'm interested in turning out the most bulletproof piece I can.
THe one thing that I don't like about the Mefi 4B and the one thing that really holds it back IMO is that it can't run sequentially. I'm working on a pretty large pair of engines running 4.0L quads and really need to run sequentially. I am looking at a few different boxes for them. Obviously, I would want to be able to trim the fuel where is was needed. I'm sure it will need some trimming down low but not so much up top, as is the case with most quads.
Thanks in advance. Great thread.
Eddie
As you know, I use Mefi's and have used them almost exclusively for over 10 years. While I have a good handle on them and can tune them pretty quickly, I am not married to them. I really like the Mefi's and their relatively advanced knock protection(certainly for their time). That is the most important feature to me, especially in something making over 1300 hp on pump gas. I'm not interested in saving time or a few dollars (which I wouldn't since the mefi is cheaper). I'm interested in turning out the most bulletproof piece I can.
THe one thing that I don't like about the Mefi 4B and the one thing that really holds it back IMO is that it can't run sequentially. I'm working on a pretty large pair of engines running 4.0L quads and really need to run sequentially. I am looking at a few different boxes for them. Obviously, I would want to be able to trim the fuel where is was needed. I'm sure it will need some trimming down low but not so much up top, as is the case with most quads.
Thanks in advance. Great thread.
Eddie
03-14-2012, 01:15 AM
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Hey Jer, you could send your ecm back and get it tweaked again and it would probably be fine, but if you ever wanted to run more boost, change exhaust, upgrade a cam, etc. It's time to start over on the tuning which means sending it back again or erasing the current program and driving around with a laptop dialing it all in. Your injectors are a bit small and you're using excess fuel pressure to compensate, you also don't have a 2 bar MAP so the computer can't see exactly what's going on. I think bigger injectors and the Holley ecm would be excellent for your set up and give you unlimited potential for upgrades down the road.
..lets get his oil temps corrected first then move on
