Crankcase Cooler - Is there such a thing out there?
02-21-2012 | 11:59 PM
#71
Thread Starter
Gold Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,987
Likes: 0
From: Missouri
Rage:
We set all our high horsepower 496's with .0025-.003" main bearing clearance, .003" bearing clearance on the rods and we have no oil overheating issues on our engines when we use the 10778 oil pump, adequate size lines and fittings from the block to the oil filter and then to the cooler and back to the block. WE ONLY USE THE "ALUMINA" SERIES BEARINGS AND YOU SHOULD NEVER USE "H" SERIES BEARINGS ON THE STOCK GM 496 CRANKSHAFTS! If you have everything correct and assembled and plumbed correctly and a good oil cooler sized as yours with a properly working oil thermostat you should not be having a problem you are suppossedly seeing and expierencing with your oil system.
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
We set all our high horsepower 496's with .0025-.003" main bearing clearance, .003" bearing clearance on the rods and we have no oil overheating issues on our engines when we use the 10778 oil pump, adequate size lines and fittings from the block to the oil filter and then to the cooler and back to the block. WE ONLY USE THE "ALUMINA" SERIES BEARINGS AND YOU SHOULD NEVER USE "H" SERIES BEARINGS ON THE STOCK GM 496 CRANKSHAFTS! If you have everything correct and assembled and plumbed correctly and a good oil cooler sized as yours with a properly working oil thermostat you should not be having a problem you are suppossedly seeing and expierencing with your oil system.
Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar
02-22-2012 | 12:42 AM
#72
Registered
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,667
Likes: 0
SD Fever,
Thanks for your input.
I seem to recall a conversation that we had a while back about engine oil temperature where I thought you said that your's did not get too hot because when it got to ~250F I think it was you just reduced from WOT and that you never ran at WOT 15 min. Am I remembering correctly or not?
First of all your pictures show a beautiful engine and paint job. I am jealous.
However what I also see is the stock Merc 496HO (425hp oil cooler) still there with your Raylar HO600 600hp+ engine upgrade. Are you nuts? No wonder you have to shut down WOT runs early. I ran my 625hp engine with that stock oil cooler and during extended WOT runs ( that you do not do because the oil temp spikes) I melted lots of things and oil pressure went down the toilet. That is why I installed the 700hp Hardin Marine 3x18 oil cooler ( I wish I had picked the 1000hp unit) and AN10 lines and fittings. I can not believe that Raylar did not tell you that the stock Merc 496HO oil cooler and lines and fittings were inadequate. So much for state of the art engineering.
Thanks for your input.
I seem to recall a conversation that we had a while back about engine oil temperature where I thought you said that your's did not get too hot because when it got to ~250F I think it was you just reduced from WOT and that you never ran at WOT 15 min. Am I remembering correctly or not?
First of all your pictures show a beautiful engine and paint job. I am jealous.
However what I also see is the stock Merc 496HO (425hp oil cooler) still there with your Raylar HO600 600hp+ engine upgrade. Are you nuts? No wonder you have to shut down WOT runs early. I ran my 625hp engine with that stock oil cooler and during extended WOT runs ( that you do not do because the oil temp spikes) I melted lots of things and oil pressure went down the toilet. That is why I installed the 700hp Hardin Marine 3x18 oil cooler ( I wish I had picked the 1000hp unit) and AN10 lines and fittings. I can not believe that Raylar did not tell you that the stock Merc 496HO oil cooler and lines and fittings were inadequate. So much for state of the art engineering.
Raylar had nothing to do with it. I did the install. It works fine.
You asked me if i am nutz? NO - I would never invest this kinda coin in any engine and hold the throttle open for that long. It's nutz to me that you are soo darn inclined to do that.
If you wanna do that I would think it's better to buy a bone stock package and not do any mods. Once you hop it up, responsibility goes up with it..
I still say you got something wrong somewhere man. But I feel like there's more than what we are being told (maybe not on purpose).
02-22-2012 | 09:00 AM
#73
Thread Starter
Gold Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,987
Likes: 0
From: Missouri
Uh,,, did you notice that it goes into another cooler which means we have two oil coolers back to back? Nope. I missed that. I retract my 'are you nutz' inquiry. This makes the plumbing nice and easy plus it looks ok. It looks great! Prevents one from having to completely redo the whole thing and have crap everywhere. The raw water plumbing does the work for you..
Raylar had nothing to do with it. I did the install. It works fine.
You asked me if i am nutz? NO - I would never invest this kinda coin in any engine and hold the throttle open for that long. It's nutz to me that you are soo darn inclined to do that. As stated above I retract my 'are you nutz' inquiry.
If you wanna do that I would think it's better to buy a bone stock package and not do any mods. Once you hop it up, responsibility goes up with it..
I still say you got something wrong somewhere man. But I feel like there's more than what we are being told (maybe not on purpose).
Raylar had nothing to do with it. I did the install. It works fine.
You asked me if i am nutz? NO - I would never invest this kinda coin in any engine and hold the throttle open for that long. It's nutz to me that you are soo darn inclined to do that. As stated above I retract my 'are you nutz' inquiry.
If you wanna do that I would think it's better to buy a bone stock package and not do any mods. Once you hop it up, responsibility goes up with it..
I still say you got something wrong somewhere man. But I feel like there's more than what we are being told (maybe not on purpose).
Question. What is the highest oil temperature you have ever seen with your engine while running (not idleing after shut down)? What were the circumstances?
Thanks.
02-22-2012 | 09:03 AM
#74
Registered
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 699
Likes: 2
From: central NY
Thanks to all for the inputs.
However almost all are focused on diagnosing the 'cause'. As I stated in the beginning I know the cause...the oil flow through the 3x18 "700HP" oil cooler is too slow for 625hp because of the current bearing clearance restricting that flow. Someone else very knowledgeable in custom engines had my same oil temp runaway problem during extended WOT running and tried all the things suggested herein and a whole lot more over a period of years on a PAIR of closed cooling Whippled Merc 496HO engines with the exact same 3x18 "700HP" oil cooler that I have. When the oil flow rate through the oil cooler was increased by looser bearing clearances and a higher GPM oil pump to keep the oil pressure up with the looser bearing clearances the oil then stayed cool for unlimited WOT running (650 - 700 HP).
I am however looking for a work around to provide additional oil cooling for extended WOT running w/o engine rebuild/redesign. Please limit further comments to that focus.
Thanks
However almost all are focused on diagnosing the 'cause'. As I stated in the beginning I know the cause...the oil flow through the 3x18 "700HP" oil cooler is too slow for 625hp because of the current bearing clearance restricting that flow. Someone else very knowledgeable in custom engines had my same oil temp runaway problem during extended WOT running and tried all the things suggested herein and a whole lot more over a period of years on a PAIR of closed cooling Whippled Merc 496HO engines with the exact same 3x18 "700HP" oil cooler that I have. When the oil flow rate through the oil cooler was increased by looser bearing clearances and a higher GPM oil pump to keep the oil pressure up with the looser bearing clearances the oil then stayed cool for unlimited WOT running (650 - 700 HP).
I am however looking for a work around to provide additional oil cooling for extended WOT running w/o engine rebuild/redesign. Please limit further comments to that focus.
Thanks
I have a Harden combo oil power steering cooler with tstat rated at 700 HP. I also had oil temp issues at extended WOT. When my engine was a ZZ502 I could get the oil temps to 300* during extended WOT. To counter this, I pulled the tstat from the Harden cooler, then inserted a 1/2 inch steel rod into the bypass passage of the cooler (tube on top of cooler), then capped the end where the tstat was located. That allowed/forced ALL oil to go thru the cooling passages. I also drilled 3 holes is the thermostat (the tstat in the housing above the water pump on engine), because I believe block temperature directly affects oil temps. Note; before I inserted the rod into the oil cooler bypass, I turned down/ground down the ends of the rod to ensure free oil flow to/from the cooler.
The upside was that oil temps would get no higher that 265-270 regardless of how hard/fast/long I ran the ZZ. Downside was, it took a while to get the engine/oil up to operating temps before I felt comfy running over 2500-3000 RPMs. Note that I have always used Mobile 1 V-Twin 20/50. After much research/reading it seems the V-Twin oil handles high oil temps well. At the time I was also still using the stock Merc oil lines and fittings, which are restrictive.
Hope this helps
02-22-2012 | 10:39 AM
#75
Registered
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,667
Likes: 0
I did my best for you.
02-22-2012 | 11:08 AM
#76
Thread Starter
Gold Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,987
Likes: 0
From: Missouri
As I've said, I don't like to run mine much over 220 on the gauge (what ever that's worth). The thought of holding a nice engine wide open for 15 minutes straight gives me a gawd awful feeling. It defies any common sense in my book but it's just one guy's opinion.
I did my best for you.
I did my best for you.
Yes different strokes for different folks. I am an engineer at heart and by profession and it drives me nuts when something does not perform up to expectations. In this case I expect a properly set up race engine to be able to run more than just a few minutes before having to shut it down to keep it from self destruction. Something is wrong with the way my engine system is set up and I want to fix it...eventually... but now I just want to find a workable band aid to use to cool the crankcase oil.
How long at WOT before you see 220F oil temp if that is when you see it?
02-22-2012 | 11:40 AM
#77
Thread Starter
Gold Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,987
Likes: 0
From: Missouri
Rage, I feel your pain - Possible temporary fix for you........
I have a Harden combo oil power steering cooler with tstat rated at 700 HP. I also had oil temp issues at extended WOT. When my engine was a ZZ502 I could get the oil temps to 300* during extended WOT.When first built to 625hp I still had the completely stock 496HO oil cooler and system. No oil temp gauge then so I was oblivious to what was going on and later found melted seals in the filter adapter. The first red flag was the recorded oil pressure after a hard run which was 47 psi @5800 rpm with Amsoil S2000 20W50 racing oil. Also then noted that the oil pressure at lifter oil galley was a lot lower than at the pump's 47psi!!!!!! I first added the HM cooler to the stock lines which reduced temp but the oil pressure delta was still there. Then I found that there were three brass inverted flare fittings in the stock oil lines that were only 3/8"ID which was the main oil flow restriction problem. Then I replaced stock lines/fittings with all AN10 lines and fittings and the oil pressure at the pump and bearings is now the same at WOT. To counter this, I pulled the tstat from the Harden cooler, then inserted a 1/2 inch steel rod into the bypass passage of the cooler (tube on top of cooler), then capped the end where the tstat was located. That allowed/forced ALL oil to go thru the cooling passages. I also drilled 3 holes is the thermostat what diameter holes and what temperature thermostat? (the tstat in the housing above the water pump on engine), because I believe block temperature directly affects oil temps. Note; before I inserted the rod into the oil cooler bypass, I turned down/ground down the ends of the rod to ensure free oil flow to/from the cooler.
The upside was that oil temps would get no higher that 265-270 regardless of how hard/fast/long I ran the ZZ. Downside was, it took a while to get the engine/oil up to operating temps before I felt comfy running over 2500-3000 RPMs. Note that I have always used Mobile 1 V-Twin 20/50. After much research/reading it seems the V-Twin oil handles high oil temps well. I agree it is the best out there and the most expensiveAt the time I was also still using the stock Merc oil lines and fittings, which are restrictive.I know that as well per above comment. Question: So you reduced the oil temperature from 300F at WOT to 265-270F max for unlimited WOT using stock lines and fittings with the bigger oil cooler and blocking the oil bypass as you described is that correct?
Hope this helps
I have a Harden combo oil power steering cooler with tstat rated at 700 HP. I also had oil temp issues at extended WOT. When my engine was a ZZ502 I could get the oil temps to 300* during extended WOT.When first built to 625hp I still had the completely stock 496HO oil cooler and system. No oil temp gauge then so I was oblivious to what was going on and later found melted seals in the filter adapter. The first red flag was the recorded oil pressure after a hard run which was 47 psi @5800 rpm with Amsoil S2000 20W50 racing oil. Also then noted that the oil pressure at lifter oil galley was a lot lower than at the pump's 47psi!!!!!! I first added the HM cooler to the stock lines which reduced temp but the oil pressure delta was still there. Then I found that there were three brass inverted flare fittings in the stock oil lines that were only 3/8"ID which was the main oil flow restriction problem. Then I replaced stock lines/fittings with all AN10 lines and fittings and the oil pressure at the pump and bearings is now the same at WOT. To counter this, I pulled the tstat from the Harden cooler, then inserted a 1/2 inch steel rod into the bypass passage of the cooler (tube on top of cooler), then capped the end where the tstat was located. That allowed/forced ALL oil to go thru the cooling passages. I also drilled 3 holes is the thermostat what diameter holes and what temperature thermostat? (the tstat in the housing above the water pump on engine), because I believe block temperature directly affects oil temps. Note; before I inserted the rod into the oil cooler bypass, I turned down/ground down the ends of the rod to ensure free oil flow to/from the cooler.
The upside was that oil temps would get no higher that 265-270 regardless of how hard/fast/long I ran the ZZ. Downside was, it took a while to get the engine/oil up to operating temps before I felt comfy running over 2500-3000 RPMs. Note that I have always used Mobile 1 V-Twin 20/50. After much research/reading it seems the V-Twin oil handles high oil temps well. I agree it is the best out there and the most expensiveAt the time I was also still using the stock Merc oil lines and fittings, which are restrictive.I know that as well per above comment. Question: So you reduced the oil temperature from 300F at WOT to 265-270F max for unlimited WOT using stock lines and fittings with the bigger oil cooler and blocking the oil bypass as you described is that correct?
Hope this helps
Can you tell me more about the ZZ502 engine? HP? WOT rpm? What HP is the closed cooling heat exchanger designed for? What is the max coolant temp during extended WOT runs? AFR or EGT at WOT? I am sure I will think of more as soon as I send this.
02-22-2012 | 03:09 PM
#80
Thread Starter
Gold Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,987
Likes: 0
From: Missouri
