junk in the oil filter????
 

so i got boared to day and decided to take my oil filter off and cut it open after only MAYBE 1 hour of run time last fall. and by one hour i mean for 15 mins at a time.

after dismantling the filter and completely unravelling the paper element i found several (10+ or so) small paper thin flakes of metal in the element. i assume this is bearing material.

i ran the engine hard in the boat for just a few seconds at a time when testing props and checkin hte initial install after the break in on the engine test stand.

i found that my engine builder had put 9 quarts of oil in the engine....this is too much for my pan and it was causing the oil to be whipped up by the crank and the oil pressure was dropping at high RPM and then coming back at low rpm.

im going to change the oil and filter, install a catch screen on top of the filter and run the engine with the boat backed into the water and see what i find in the screen.

any thoughts???

What was done to the engines that they are redone or rebuilt? Who did the work and roughly what was done.

This does not sound or look good and chan ces are the engine is going to have to come apart, at least oil pan off to check the problems. Rmember now that engines with mechanical problems like this DON'T fix themselves so chances are you are going to have to have it fixed either by yourself, or a qualified rebuilder. Hope the problem is fairly minor and does not envolve major repairs.

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

well i am planning n the engine being pulled. lol

completely rebuilt. engine decked, lin bore checked, new diamond pistons , steel rods, rings, bearings, isky roller cam and lifters. etc....088 steel heads. crower roller rockers, morrison stud girdles.

this is the original oil that has been in the engine since it was started and ran on the test stand at my builders shop. idk why the hell he put 9 quarts of oil in the damn thing or evn if it is relevant to the problem....but whatever.

i have maybe an hour of run time in the boat collectively and maybe another 20-30 min on the stand. lol wtf????

i guess my 509 is gonna be goin in earlier than i thought.

engine runs fine...no knocks or noise at all......i personally think i need to pull it and just go through the whole damn ting again. i talked to George at Corder Performance engines and he said hes concerned. lol no ****! me too! ha! on ehour four trips out at 15 mins each on a brand new motor. wow. thats gotta be some kinda record!

I understand the engine and build a little better now, thank you. I am not sure that overfilling oil capacity was the cause. If oil was foaming a lot from overfilling, the oil pressure on the engine should have been fluctuating a lot and dropping quite a bit under load to do bearing damage if thats what the metal is. What size pan and oil system is on the engine?
Were oil temperatures allowed to get up to reasonable operating levels before the engine was loaded on dyno or in boat? Describe what oil pressures were and how if any they fluctuated. No, new nicely built performance engines like this should not have serious wear and debris problems at 20 hours but it happens a lot with performance engine builds throughout the country almost every day.
Again, hope the issue is fairly minor and not to costly or damaging to fix.

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

thanks for the replies Ray!

i wish i had 20 hours! lol ive got maybe 1 hour.

the pan is a stock steel merc pan with the larger (longer) sump. i think its a 7 quart. maybe an 8.

if it isnt bearing material then what could it be? how far should i dig before i just pull it and get intot he engine. obviously i dont mind pullin the engine and want to save it. but i dont wanna be an alarmist either.

i have ben told that on the initial break in that some flakes are normal.....but not excessive. being that this is the original oil from the first time it was started what do you think?

i am going to back it in the water tomorrow with new oil and filter installed (with a screen on toop of the filter) and run it on the trailer until it comes up to temp and see what i find in the screen. does this sound like a good idea or should i just pull it and tear it down?

im at about 45-50 psi idling and at speed it dropped down to 25psi. and then at idle it creeps back up. the oil temp gauge was not installed until after the last run so im not sure what it was doing.

i literally only ran the engine up to maybe 5000 rpm for maybe 10 times for just a few seconds at a time.

You mentioned on other threads that the oil pressure gauge was acting up on you , are you sure it wasn't trying to tell you something , sure makes me wonder . In the end , don't just fix whats broken , make sure you figure out what caused it . My .02 cents. It's not good to see a cat brother with problems .:poopoo:

The oil pressure at idle does not seem a problem, but dropping at higher rpms IS! The oil pressure should be increasing or holding steady NOT going down! Something is definitly wrong here. Get the oil level in the pan to the correct oil level and test (lightly ) again and maybe crosscheck with a mechanical guage. Not saying the flakes are a direct result of bearing failure or oiling issues but they are not normal in moderate quantities in a 1 hour properly built fresh engine.
I think you definitly have an issue going on here. Did the oil pressure do the exact same thing (pressure drop) when the engine was first tested or operated? If not and the pressures are falling after repeated usage then the bearing issue could be getting worse and you must be careful not to do any furthur serious damage.

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

Deep:

yeah my gauge was reading low at high rpm and high at idle. im almost certain the cause of htis was too much oil in the pan (9 quarts put in by my builder, thats 2 more than required)

now weather or not the two issues are related is still to be determined. im glad i found the problem now. at least i have time to fix it befor ethe season starts.

the pressure drop was noted the entire time the engien was run in the boat. i first had a mechanical gauge run up to the dash and thought that maybe the run of copper tubing was too long (about 12 feet) and replaced it with a new electric OP gauge.

the engien sounds and runs great as of right now so hopefully what ever the cause i have found it early enough to nip it inthe bud so to speak.

Ray, if the oil pressure level is indeed the cause of the oil pressure drop at speed, what then should i be concerned about?

what it the determining factor on weather or not to pull the engine?

if i do run the engine lightly and OP is good and the flakes subside...then what? i just wanna know when enough evidence is present to warrant tearing hte engine down.

I would wonder if the builder left the windage tray out. If your OP drops at elevated rpm bearings are surely getting fried, btdt. You might run it again with about 6qts just to be sure and cut open the filter again. Make sure you are chiseling the filter open. Sawing it open is NFG for obvious reasons. I would not do the screen in the filter, just cut it open after another run. FYI - typically when windage is the issue you get a nasty burnt oil smell in the cockpit from the oil hitting the pistons. Do you smell oil when running?

blue: thanks for your reply

i have never noticed a burnt smell in the cockpit...but then again i have an open engine bay and it may be hard to tell.

the tray that bolts to the main caps (if that is what you are referring to may have been left out....i did not have one to begin with.....but then again i told the builder whe i took it to him to install anything and everything that was necessary and he said he would/did. most engines ive pulled apart dont have a tray on the mains....why is that?

the builder bought the rings, bearings, seals, gaskets, and other build material. i just bought the hard parts.

it may be that my builder just built me a piece of $h!t. idk. lol he has been in business a LONG time and builds 30k dollar race motors for people all over the country.....so who knows.

this sucks a fat one for sure...but at least if i have to pull it i can still boatin this summer. lol

My pleasure 2ton. A little story. When I bought my boat the guy (automotive guy at that) had just rebuilt the engines. Everytime I got to a certain rpm (4200 maybe) the OP would drop like a rock in one of the engines. Open cockpit, wicked burnt oil smell. I ran it like this a few times trying to diagnose it. Then one time one of the engines OP didn't recover all the way at lower rpm. I pulled that engine and found no windage tray (or studs for it) and mains that were on the verge of spinning. I barely caught it. Put in windage trays (and studs) and no more of that. The other engine eventually dropped a valve which had me rebuilding that one too... no tray. I've since bought nice pans with trap doors and all the whistles and oil control been perfect. This may not be your problem but I would inquire with the builder non the less about the trays. I'd also do the 6 qts as a lot of pans only take that much.

WOW thats sad what kind of speed did u get with the 496 im running a 540 ci blower motor in mine

man i hope i dont have to pull it...but it sure looks like thats what ima do. it would be a minor miracle at this point if i havnt, at a minimum toasted my bearings either form the lack of a windage tray and/or the overfilling of the engine causing the oil to cavitate. or who knows what else coulda caused it.

ive got my 509 ready to go in the shop already...and i have a dooly 10 qt pan on it....but it was built by the same guy that built this one! lmao and im just not sure i can trust it if he cant get me more than an hour out of a brand new engine built with top quality parts!

GM forged crank, diamond forged pistons, forged rods with arp bolts, stainless valves, isky cam and roller lifters, morrison girdles, file to fit rings, ported and matched intake and heads, HEI distributor, H bearings,.......i wanted a reliable low output engine...and i got a POS looks like.

yeah it blows man.....its a 468 and i gettn 85 gps.....

Its not game over based on 10 thin flakes. 6qts of fresh oil, another run hoping the op holds fine all the way up then cut the filter open again. If you see any hint of op gage flutter stop immediately and add a qt.
85gps, nice. You'd give me trouble in the scarab, a little anyway :daz:

lol yeah the lil 468 runs GREAT! i thoght 85 was pretty respectable personally..... i mean ive been braggin on how good it runs. and how i havnt had to adjust anyhting...not a damn thing. its great. sounds amazing. great idle sound and quality.

your makin me feel a lil better. lol thats really what i want! somebody hold my hand and tell me its gonna be ok!!!!!! :angry-smiley-038:

yea good speed out of the 496 at least its not hard pulling it out of the sxt hour and a half pulled mine 4 times last year it sucks

oh u did say 468 my bad i got my old 468 blower motor if u need one

got any pixs of your sxt

lol man i hope i dont need anew motor. i have a 509 sittin in the shop that is built and ready to go.....if i have to pull this engine i will just put the 509 in and run it this summer i guess......but as i said...it was built by the same guy that buil this one so idk if ima trust it.....

but your right...pullin the engine isnt bad at all! hell its already sittin half way outa th ehull! lol like a big damn jet boat.

ive got some pics of the interior and engine bay...gimme your email and i send some to ya...

im not runnin a blower....just a 750 holley DP with an hp500 arrestor.

im using over the transom headers...it looks old school. all i need now is 10 inch chrome chain steering wheel! lol i swear ima put one on this summer.

an hour is nowhere near the record. i didn't even get to half throttle first run when a valve head popped off. ate the block. maybe 3 to 5 minutes.

[email protected] lol close to a jet iv got a set of bassett headers a year old bought new last year if your interested oh and a set of gills to your better of gettin rid of the wet headers i lost two moters from that water in oil im putting stelling dry headers on mine thru transom like to see the pixs of your hatch im building a new hatch thanks

May sound stupid....but here goes.

I have always been taught to run a fresh engine at low rpms up to temp with the boat on a the trailer backed into the water then change the oil and filter. Cheap insurance to flush out anythign that may have been left behind. I know, a good builder should have a squeaky clean fesh engine, but lots of places for crap to hide

You mention the work done. I hope the engine was hot tanked, why was it rebuilt? Was the oil cooler flushed or replaced?

Not stupid at all, thats what I do, have two sitting next to the house to do when february is gone. I can't imagine running new mills with the initial oil loaded with assembly lube and all other byproducts of assembly. After that an hr or two on the water running easy with rotella, then amsoil sythetic.

thanks for all the input guys.

i dont know if the engine is junk or not....

.but here is what i do know:

-the engine had 9 quarts of oil in a stock steel pan (too much IMO)
-the oil pressure was good at idle (40+psi) and slowly dropped (25 psi) at WOT then came back at idle
-the filter i cut open today had maybe 10 tiny ultra thin flakes in the folds of the filter element (there was no copper anywhere)
-the engine otherwise ran falwlessly

if the engine has a serious mechanical problem that warrants it bein pulled and dismantled then i would really like to know why. me and my builder are gnna have a series of very serious discussions. my engine is not a "high dollar" engine but i paid my hard earned money for it to be built and the result is unacceptable. my builder and i actually cu tthe filter open together and he says what we found concerns him as well and is gonna go to the ramp with me tomorrow after i change the oil and filter and test run it with me.

he says its not game over yet....and the engien may in fact be good to go...but he agrees with Raylar and others: this is not the norm.

If you still have the filter, post a pic it's worth 1,000 posts.

I will see if I can find a pic of a filter with copper in it and post it. Any time I have found flakes it was time to tear it apart.

i left the filter with builder a this shop where we cut it apart. i was just doin it for fun out of boredom.....wow.....not so much fun now. lol

i will see if i can get it and post it up.

$hit happens...i just wanna know why it happened.

the flakes i found were supr super thin....like way thinner than paper. and there may have been ten ....maybe no that many.....but several.....but aside from just those flakes there was virtually nothing!

so the consensus is: change oil and filter. light run time on the water. observe oil pressure with correct amount of oil in pan, cut filter and check again for flakes and debri.

?????

if it is a merc marine pan,it probibally is a 8 qt pan.it may be the oil pickup is to close to the pan,WHEN IN DOUBT-CHECK IT OUT.just had to say it:lolhit:

Aren't you also going to recommend psloanker shooter?
:daz::lolhit::party-smiley-004:

Whats a RAYISM?
 

Mike,
You sound so much smarter when you use my RAYISMS!:lolhit:

update!

changed oil and filter (6 quarts), backed the boat into the water and ran it for 20 mins at varying RPM from 1500 to 3800 under load, drive engaged. also idled it for a lil while. oil pressure was good. 60psi at idle and didnt drop.

cut open filter: nothing. not a single flake or chip.

?????????????????????

Great News! Keep an eye on things closely for a while. Hope this is the end of your issue and hope whatever those flakes were, that they are residues and thats all!

Thank you very much for reporting back and giving all who posted and read the news!

Good Luck, Be Safe, Have Fun and enjoy your boating!

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

man i hope so Ray.

my plan: (offer thoughts) i refilled the engine with 10w30 valvoline oil and an AC delco filter just to put maybe another hour of actual run time on the engine. then im going to change it and cut the filter open again. if the filter is clean after another hour im going to switch to Mobil 1 20w50 synthetic v-twin oil and let it hang out.

it would be a damn shame if i had to tear the motor down. it runs so damn good! oh and by the way...its a 454 @ .030 over ...making it a 461...if im correct. i think that gps 85 mph out of this mild setup is pretty good. i didnt dyno the engine (although i should have) but it seems to be makin good power.

thanks to everyone that commented and offered opinions. this sight and the people on it are awesome. the info available here is priceless. as a liftime gearhead and mechanic i can tell you this: it would take a person a lifetime of boating/mechanicing to get the answers/info that you can get here in minutes.

i will keep everyone posted

What he said!

FYI - generally issues present as metal dust type of material in the pleats not flakes. I'm optimistic about your engines future.

Oil analysis is cheap ($35 or so?) and easy. Its good data.

I think that is a good simple plan to check out the engine after some short usage. If you do an oil analysis remember you have to give them an unused sample of the oil being used before it goes in the engine and then a sample of oil run in the engine so they can deveop what is called a base oil test to compare against the used oil.

Lets us know how your second check works out and we all hope its positive.

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

Ray, not trying to pick an argument with you bc I know you have way more