454 Rebuild - Advice?
12-08-2012, 01:02 AM
#1
454 Rebuild - Advice?
I'm about to start the restoration of a classic and am building the engine first.
I found a crazy deal on a pair of Baker Racing 454's. One was torn down, the other not. Lets just say that I only ended up with one good block and crank out of the pair.....
Engine Specs:
- Gen IV 454 currently bored 0.30 and cylinders look clean (still has hatching)
- Merlin heads that have possibly already been ported b/c they are smooth and clean. 119cc, 345intake? They're the ones that World doesn't show in their cataloge, they were designed for marine applications.
- Merlin AL marine intake
- TRW/Speedpro L2399 Forged pistions (0.030 / 0.095)
- GM "Dimple" rods
- Crane 1.7 AL roller rockers
- 850 CFM Holley
- Forged GM crankshaft
- Cast AL valve covers from Advance Marine
I was told that these engines were 425hp, but I'm starting to think they may have been higher than that. Sadly, the Baker ID tags were nowhere to be found, but I'm going to give them a ring to see what else they can tell me. The cam has their name on it and the number doesn't match anything else out there.
Originally I was thinking a/b buying a rotating assembly, stroking it and building it into a 496, but now that I've ID'd some better parts than I thought, I may do differently.
I need a couple of pistons at a minimum, thoughts? Just replace the couple of L2399's that need replacing or go with a newer design?
Keep the "dimple" rods? It's not a big cost to upgrade them, but is it worth it?
If I do pistons and rods, then I'm back to thinking 496. I'm taking it and the heads in to be cleaned up regardless.
If you had to SWAG a number, what do you think those engines rated out the door at Baker and how hard would you spin them? I'm going to call them again this week and see what else I can figure out.
I found a crazy deal on a pair of Baker Racing 454's. One was torn down, the other not. Lets just say that I only ended up with one good block and crank out of the pair.....
Engine Specs:
- Gen IV 454 currently bored 0.30 and cylinders look clean (still has hatching)
- Merlin heads that have possibly already been ported b/c they are smooth and clean. 119cc, 345intake? They're the ones that World doesn't show in their cataloge, they were designed for marine applications.
- Merlin AL marine intake
- TRW/Speedpro L2399 Forged pistions (0.030 / 0.095)
- GM "Dimple" rods
- Crane 1.7 AL roller rockers
- 850 CFM Holley
- Forged GM crankshaft
- Cast AL valve covers from Advance Marine
I was told that these engines were 425hp, but I'm starting to think they may have been higher than that. Sadly, the Baker ID tags were nowhere to be found, but I'm going to give them a ring to see what else they can tell me. The cam has their name on it and the number doesn't match anything else out there.
Originally I was thinking a/b buying a rotating assembly, stroking it and building it into a 496, but now that I've ID'd some better parts than I thought, I may do differently.
I need a couple of pistons at a minimum, thoughts? Just replace the couple of L2399's that need replacing or go with a newer design?
Keep the "dimple" rods? It's not a big cost to upgrade them, but is it worth it?
If I do pistons and rods, then I'm back to thinking 496. I'm taking it and the heads in to be cleaned up regardless.
If you had to SWAG a number, what do you think those engines rated out the door at Baker and how hard would you spin them? I'm going to call them again this week and see what else I can figure out.
12-08-2012, 06:05 AM
#2
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If I were you, I would have the cylinder walls sonic checked for thickness and bore out to as much as is safe to remove. You want about .175" wall minimum. All BBC are starved for air, so opening up the cylinder bore really helps to unshroud the intake valves and improve flow - in addition to increasing displacement which is free torque. If you go this route, then a new rotating assembly would be a must. Those L2399's are heavy and have 5/64" ring packs - unnecessary friction. JE and Wiseco offer affordable forged pistons with 3/16" ring packs that will help reduce friction, are lighter castings and have improved features. If you're going to run a supercharger then go with the 2618 forged alloy. If naturally aspirated, 4032 alloy would be preferred as it expands less when heated and will last longer, but is not as tough as 2618.
Boring and stroking will help you with your compression ratio also with those 119cc chambers. There's nothing wrong with those heads and they can be made to flow well. I would have them milled .010" and have the seats checked and cut. It's probably already there, but if not, a 3 or 5 angle seat job should be a must on all cylinder heads these days and will improve flow. 10.5 to 1 would be my goal for compression ratio with cast iron heads.
Not sure about the Baker's HP ratings as I have much more experience with automotive applications so we'll have to wait for someone else to chime in. I do know with the right cam you should have no problem pulling 600 hp and 600 ft.lbs. from stroked 454s with those heads while still being perfectly tame at idle...
Just what I would do if I were in your place. Feel free to shoot me any questions. Good luck with your build.
Rob
Boring and stroking will help you with your compression ratio also with those 119cc chambers. There's nothing wrong with those heads and they can be made to flow well. I would have them milled .010" and have the seats checked and cut. It's probably already there, but if not, a 3 or 5 angle seat job should be a must on all cylinder heads these days and will improve flow. 10.5 to 1 would be my goal for compression ratio with cast iron heads.
Not sure about the Baker's HP ratings as I have much more experience with automotive applications so we'll have to wait for someone else to chime in. I do know with the right cam you should have no problem pulling 600 hp and 600 ft.lbs. from stroked 454s with those heads while still being perfectly tame at idle...
Just what I would do if I were in your place. Feel free to shoot me any questions. Good luck with your build.
Rob
12-08-2012, 10:56 AM
#4
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Basically what you have there is a 454 Magnum shortblock. Good stuff, depending on your HP goals.
Those Vintage Merlin heads came in two sizes. Either 345CC or I believe 320CC, or close to that. I would assume whoever put this package together, wouldnt have chose 345CC heads for a 454. Hopefully. Even the 320's are a bit large ,but they work.
My guess is that setup, a flat tappet hydraulic cam probably somewhere in the 228/236 range, you have some 425-450HP engines.
It really depends on your budget, and how much you wanna spend, and how much power you wanna make. If you keep the 460'' setup, and convert it over to a hyd roller cam, keep your pistons, which will yield around 8.75-9:1 depending on actual CC of the chambers and head gasket thickness, and deck height, you can probably have a 475-500HP engine. Add about 40-50hp if you go to a 4.25 crank. But I dont think the additional probably 2000 bucks to swap the rotating assembly would be worth it, if you have useable stuff now.
12-08-2012, 07:33 PM
#6
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The main difference with marine is everything has to be set up more conservative than a car engine. Compression, timing, air/fuel ratios, etc. Stuff needs to be able to be held at wot for several minutes, sometimes longer, without coming apart.
12-10-2012, 06:48 PM
#7
I wasn't able to give Baker a call today, I had the death flu last week and am still catching up at work. Doesn't help that I'm swamped and was behind before I missed a couple of days!
These engines were part of a matched set of four. The boat yard where I found the boat ('71 CC XK-22) had replaced them for the customer with four Perkins diesels. Morons left them sitting outside b/c when i pulled the plugs out of the assembled engine, I had water in all eight cylinders. My father's boat yard opened in 1962, the first thing that is done when replacing equipment like that is to salvage anything that's still good. You never know when you need a block, outdrive, head, etc. I'm in TX and dad is in KY, and he has piles of engine and drive parts in storage. Even if I didn't spend the $250 to buy this pile of parts, I would have had a cache of stuff to pull from. Sadly, the biggest blocks he has are 454's and no OD's better than a Bravo I. There are some Alpha's, Volvo's and Cobra's, but that's about it. I told him to find me an IMCO lower and an X/XR, but he laughed and said they never see those.
I'd expect that the block and heads have already had some work done to them. I'd bet that the block was already zero decked and the heads have been polished/ported and possibly milled down. The inside of the ports feels nice and smooth, I'm sure they'd be rough if they hadn't been cleaned up already. Those are the big items that I need to verify with Baker. If the block and heads haven't been worked over, I'll deck/bore, port/polish and mill them.
Since I already have a forged crank and what sound like decent rods (GM dimple), I may just have it bored 0.060 (after testing) and go with new pistons (maybe rods) and get everything balanced. I'm not sure that the $/hp is worth the cost to replace the rotating assembly if I have components that are worth keeping.... that and the Bravo I that I have is already going to be at it's limit. If I go too big I need to go ahead and replace the OD before I install it, lol.
That being said though, we did run 400hp through an early gen Volvo DP with the biggest props they make (repitched and cupped) at ~80mph (gps) on dad's XK-22 when I was a kid. Made it four-five long seasons of hard running before we finally killed it. It started making noise and when we pulled the boat to check it out (lived in the water for ~8 months/year) only two bolts were holding to lower on! ;-) We grabbed another one from the pile, re-installed, FLUSHED and kept on going. Sadly that hull is sitting in storage, wrapped up and engine-less now. He's too busy with his 42 Grand Banks to mess with it, but I still couldn't pry it out of his hands... something a/b wanting to be buried in it.... lol Granted, he did own it in '74 and bought it back in '91. I think he's attached!
I know that I need new valve springs, retainers, etc b/c the existing ones look like hell. They may be functional, but why do everything else only to save a couple of bucks and then do major damage later? I'll have the machine shop do that when I have them cleaned up and get the valves checked/replaced and grind the seats if needed. Probably go back with Ti retainers, etc to help valve float.
Engines had flat tappet, hydraulic lifters with Crane Cams Aluminum roller rockers. I figured that I'd go to a full roller setup since I need to replace the cam/lifters. The cam looks good, but I don't know anything a/b it, hopefully Baker can tell me something, but it's getting replaced anyway. I think the rockers are still good, but heard that Crane no longer sells a rebuild kit for them.
Any thoughts on:
- dimple rods?
- Merlin Intake? It's a single plane, marine model with brass inserts. http://www.worldcastings.com/product...rb-flange.html
- How hard would you spin this theoretical engine? Mercruiser always listed the 7.4/454 in it's various versions between 4,400 and 5k. Seems like I see a lot of people spinning them faster than that.
These engines were part of a matched set of four. The boat yard where I found the boat ('71 CC XK-22) had replaced them for the customer with four Perkins diesels. Morons left them sitting outside b/c when i pulled the plugs out of the assembled engine, I had water in all eight cylinders. My father's boat yard opened in 1962, the first thing that is done when replacing equipment like that is to salvage anything that's still good. You never know when you need a block, outdrive, head, etc. I'm in TX and dad is in KY, and he has piles of engine and drive parts in storage. Even if I didn't spend the $250 to buy this pile of parts, I would have had a cache of stuff to pull from. Sadly, the biggest blocks he has are 454's and no OD's better than a Bravo I. There are some Alpha's, Volvo's and Cobra's, but that's about it. I told him to find me an IMCO lower and an X/XR, but he laughed and said they never see those.
I'd expect that the block and heads have already had some work done to them. I'd bet that the block was already zero decked and the heads have been polished/ported and possibly milled down. The inside of the ports feels nice and smooth, I'm sure they'd be rough if they hadn't been cleaned up already. Those are the big items that I need to verify with Baker. If the block and heads haven't been worked over, I'll deck/bore, port/polish and mill them.
Since I already have a forged crank and what sound like decent rods (GM dimple), I may just have it bored 0.060 (after testing) and go with new pistons (maybe rods) and get everything balanced. I'm not sure that the $/hp is worth the cost to replace the rotating assembly if I have components that are worth keeping.... that and the Bravo I that I have is already going to be at it's limit. If I go too big I need to go ahead and replace the OD before I install it, lol.
That being said though, we did run 400hp through an early gen Volvo DP with the biggest props they make (repitched and cupped) at ~80mph (gps) on dad's XK-22 when I was a kid. Made it four-five long seasons of hard running before we finally killed it. It started making noise and when we pulled the boat to check it out (lived in the water for ~8 months/year) only two bolts were holding to lower on! ;-) We grabbed another one from the pile, re-installed, FLUSHED and kept on going. Sadly that hull is sitting in storage, wrapped up and engine-less now. He's too busy with his 42 Grand Banks to mess with it, but I still couldn't pry it out of his hands... something a/b wanting to be buried in it.... lol Granted, he did own it in '74 and bought it back in '91. I think he's attached!
I know that I need new valve springs, retainers, etc b/c the existing ones look like hell. They may be functional, but why do everything else only to save a couple of bucks and then do major damage later? I'll have the machine shop do that when I have them cleaned up and get the valves checked/replaced and grind the seats if needed. Probably go back with Ti retainers, etc to help valve float.
Engines had flat tappet, hydraulic lifters with Crane Cams Aluminum roller rockers. I figured that I'd go to a full roller setup since I need to replace the cam/lifters. The cam looks good, but I don't know anything a/b it, hopefully Baker can tell me something, but it's getting replaced anyway. I think the rockers are still good, but heard that Crane no longer sells a rebuild kit for them.
Any thoughts on:
- dimple rods?
- Merlin Intake? It's a single plane, marine model with brass inserts. http://www.worldcastings.com/product...rb-flange.html
- How hard would you spin this theoretical engine? Mercruiser always listed the 7.4/454 in it's various versions between 4,400 and 5k. Seems like I see a lot of people spinning them faster than that.
Last edited by wlrottge; 12-10-2012 at 07:52 PM.
