:) This is turning into a really interesting thread on fuel systems & other engine/system faults.
I spoke to my mechanic last night & this morning. He said that #6 was also showing some signs of heat, but not as bad as #5 was. On reassembly, the stock Merc exhaust manifolds were disassembled. I cannot believe this but the risers are corroded to the point of being almost unusable & the manifold was cracked. The elbows were new.
Now remember, AZ Speed rebuilt this motor 10 hours ago....... How could this happen in a boat with a total of 140 hours & used only in Arizona???????
Bottom line, AZ Speed could not have inspected &/or replaced the exhaust/riser gaskets on rebuild or they would have found this and replaced them. That is bad workmanship & no quality control. The port manifold was also leaking some water into the engine! I get more angry every day at AZ SPEED!!! I am now afraid of what may happen to my other engine as they reworked the top end on it!!! I already had to replace it's exhaust gaskets due to them not tightening the exhaust bolts (on either engine it turns out). This winter may be spent doing fix up from AZ Speed screw-ups......how are they staying in business????

:eek: My mechanic just called. He pulled all the injector screens out for inspection. He found all kinds of "little junk" in the screens.....This can only be epoxy from the pump....so guess what I have to do now !!! Man, those pumps are four feet down in the bilge !!! How Am I ever going to get them out????
At least we have a reason now for the lean condition.....
epoxy from the Aeromotive pump. Now I gotta check the other engine!
:(

Sorry, but thanks
 

Sorry to here of your problems interesting reading, I have a similar setup Fuel gets sucked through the merc filter then pumped to the fuel manifold. I have the Aermotive 1000 pumps too. Yesterday after reading this thread I ordered from Jegs NDA two 10 micron filters and holders for after the pump. I am running 502 Mags x whipples and so far everything have been perfectt, but I can see if this pump lets loose I would be in the same bad prediciment as you. I will have to go through the fuel system to make sure the pumps did not de-laminate and through crud in the lines/screens. I will either buy two new ones or get these re-built.

Thanks for the info and sorry about the mess. ASM seems to have some liability here I would pop them for not putting in the after filters. on as specified. Seems a open/shut case for me. Probibly would not even go to court.

UPDATE:

Here it is, 7 days after I sent the bill to ASM for the rebuild of my motor. NO CALL NO RESPONSE NO MONEY :( :confused: time to send a demand letter.

jdelo

I wouldl give the owner a call & talk to him or her. Be polite. If you have to leave message go do it but keep calling & leaving messages. I think you will get further that way. At least to start with.

FYI
 

I talked to Brett @ Aeromotive today, He says as long as the pumps are in OK condition they would put a new motor in it for $90.00. He did say the Oxigenated fuel / Alcohol was the problem. Especially in marine enviroments as the "Owners of the fueling stations" put extra alcohol in to remove the water.

Seems to me a cop out and they should at least replace/repair the pumps for free. Let alone what it has done to other engines out there. He also stated pumps manufactured after May are OK too.

:D :mad: ....This pretty much sums it up!!!
I took off from work last Thursday & Friday to finish the install of the engine & put the nosecone back on the outdrive. I got everything done on the drive (including a speedo pickup in drive- NOT provided by original builder of the drive) & painted.....finally got everything done late friday night/Sat a.m. & ready to start.......
I thought !!! Turned the Aeromotive pump on to check fuel flow thru the new "after" filters & set fuel pressure thru the new regulators........and "zero" pressure!! Removed the pump to test it....primed it from a 5 gallon can & motor runs but no fuel out!! Now I am upset!!! Called Aeromotive again, and they say "If your looking for someone to blame....It's not us, we are not responsible because the fuel manufacturers put alcohol in the fuel & desolved the epoxy...... I tell them, fuel has had alcohol in it for many years now..... & these are RACE pumps to supply up to 1300hp!!! Aren't they more likely to run methanol??????? Did not Aeromotive NOT anticipate that FUELS would be used in high powered drag strip vehicles????? Did they not test with methanol???? The only remedy is a $189.00 rebuild (complete new guts) plus shipping........3-5 day turn around on the pump.....that makes two more weeks down!!! I cannot buy another Aeromotive pump now, because they did NOT RECALL pumps built before May 2002!!! So any pump you buy will end up with the same problem.......now That sucks, big time. !!!! So now I am looking at being "down" for 5 weeks and the root cause was this stupid, badly engineered pump!!!
:mad:

I agree with your compaint. Have you looked at Weldon fuel pumps? As was stated in earlier post.

When you called Aeromotive did they tell you how to check build date? I am assuming you could call supplies & have them verify the date built on ones they have.

Turbo.... There is no build date or serial # on the pump....no markings at all. There may be manuf date info on the packaging, but I doubt it.......pretty sorry control for a company of their reputation...... (that may go south also!!)
I left a message at 11:50 cdt today for them to call me.... (I will try to expedite repair)...let's see how long it takes to call me !!

Hey Blown,
that sucks!!!:mad:
Quick question; is it $90 or $189 for the new pump motor?
:confused:

Nordic... The $189.99 rebuild is 100% new inside your old case/sleeve. They will also do a rebuild and ONLY replace what is broken NOW . I would have to assume that is the $ 89.00 labor + parts (?) rebuild. Why go only 1/3 the way for 1/2 the price??? It's not worth it due to the expense of shipping both ways.

I called Aeromotive again & requested an expedite. Brett said they will try to get it done tonight and ship it tomorrow. Now THAT would be GREAT service.....It also might shut me up!!!

And, more on AZ SPEED..... I took off the plenum on the other engine that AZ Speed was to "freshen" (valve job). Well, their $7.50 help worked on this one also....one intake bolt was never tightened, not even with a ratchet! It was up about 1/4 inch from even touching the manifold......
The exhaust manifold bolts were too long and bottomed in the holes....(manifolds loose)/never torqued. The other engine had exhaust bolts missing (laying in the engine bay) and were not torqued, were also loose casing a burned gasket. I just cannot understand how they do it!!! I would get fired if I did that kind of work!!

Blown Formula,

I had Jim sofner's email address at one time on my home computer. it's gone sorry.
Did you ever get to talk to the master of disaster?

jdelo

Joe, sorry I haven't called ya' back but I have been extremely busy getting parts, etc for this deal.....
I will call , possibly this evening. I have to get Jim's email address.....anyone have it???

This is intense reading. I am sorry for all your troubles. Also, sorry I have nothing to add to offer any advice or help. Good Luck...

Blown Formula,

I called AZ speed yesterday, to talk to Jim. The response was he's out of the office. So I fired off my second request letter for reinbursment for the second rebuild to the tune of 4900.00.

I hope Jim gets the message. If I have to get a lawyer Involved
I'm going for the nine yards. first and second rebuild plus the cost of pulling and replacing the motor and his bill of 530.00 to remap the ecu. total cost of $12480.00. :mad:
All this because of his 7.50 an hour worker forgot to install the inline filter, that I paid for , back in march of 2001. That's when AZ speed installed a whipple SC and Aeromotive electric fuel pump.

Maybe I should go after aeromotive as well since it was thier fuel pump that broke down and caused this major outlay of the green stuff !! :mad: :mad: :mad:

JDELO

Joe, was the Aeromotive pump still in warranty? If it was I bet you do have a case for them also!!

email me your night # again & I will call this evening....could not find it last night.

It would really be good if some of these guys were made to standup for their work (or not their work as it may be)!!

:p It's hard to believe I know but......
I overnighted my pump to Aeromotive, they recieved it sometime Monday........they totally rebuilt the pump and I had it in hand yesterday afternoon!!! Of course, I called them enough to be a real pest, but they did what they said they would do.

$189.00 & $13.76 shipping. If I ordered a new one from Summit, I probably would not have it yet.....Great job Aeromotive!!!

I am still pi_sed about the ruined motor because of the pump though........

Blown Formula,

Happy to see that Aeromotive was able to take care of your problem without to much of a hassle.
Attached is the response I recevied back from AZ speed and Marine. Man this guy has a way with words. Jim totally blew off the fact that he billed me for a inline fuel filter to protect my motor but it never was installed. He also doesn't remember the day I walked into his place of business with the fuel pump the injectors and an envelope containing pieces of epoxy I took out of the injectors. The first words that came out of his mouth was and I quote "this looks like epoxy from the fuel pump"
I guess I have to refresh his memory.

JDELO

jdelo;

I read your attachment. What a bunch of bull$hit!!! Like you said, what about the filter they charged you for? I hate places like that.

Sorry for the problems you guys are having.

Joe,
The really wierd part about the AZ SPEED letter from Shofner was " I am not responsible because I did not know, it's the EPA or refineries fault......". I also quote from Brent at Aeromotive.....
Yes, we did inform all our distributors and Major suppliers & agents. I asked: Did they Aeromotive advise Arizona Speed specifically about the problem with the pumps? YES..... I told them they denied any knowledge, but Aeromotive said they were defintely informed!!!

If a manufacturer informs a company like Arizona Speed of a defective product that has the potential of causing MAJOR engine problems for their customers & NOT just the manufacturers product.....does that company OWE it's customers the warning/advisory ? In my thinking, if they DID inform their customer, they would in fact, create additional sales, service & build customer loyalty. I guess Jim Shofner & Arizona Speed just don't think that way.......
just do high performance work and offer no warranties on anything!!
After my experiences with them,
ie: loose/not torqued exhaust bolts-BOTH ENGINES(resulted in lost bolts/fell out! & burned gasket)
Stripped out head bolt.
Loose bolts in intake manifold (turn with your fingers loose)
Engine motor mount bolts not tightened. The nut did not even touch the engine bracket!!

NUFF SAID !!!

Back in 1998 I tried to find fuel without alcohol in phoenix. Mesa, gilbert and tempe to be exact. Airplane fuel was the only that I could find without alcohol. It has been clearly stated on the pumps that alcohol is in our fuel. It even says that the amount of alcohol is different for the summer and the winter. It is on every pump. With this being common knowledge and posted where does arizona speed expect you to buy fuel for your boat. Where did they build this boat to be used?

Last year I got ripped off by one of the oldest motor shops in mesa. It was clearly the case of using labor from south of the border. It was only a couple of grand so it wasn't worth my time fighting over it.

This year I purchased a closed cooling kit from seattle to find out when the kit did not fit that it had been shipped with defective riser gaskets. It cost me my labor to install new riser gaskets.

Aeromotive should recall their epoxy fuel pumps. Az speed owes you 13K + for their 7.50 labor.

There is too much shoddy workmanship going on boats. I appreciate hearing your stories and saving me my money by never taking my boat to az speed. I hope you are sucessful in your lawsuit against az speed and aeromotive. That is the only way aeromotive will recall their epoxy pumps and save some other boater the expense of a new engine. It is the right thing to do.

Good Luck and Thanks

These were NOT crate motors!!! Stock Mercruiser 454 Mag EFI's.
Two them side by side!!! one goes the other does not!
Both Aeromotive pumps.....one set of injectors plugged up, and one failed pump....gee- both on the same engine!!! Guess what the problem is???? The pump!!! Not rings that are not clearanced correctly.


:D

:mad: & now.... the continuing saga....... installed the new/rebuilt Aeromotive pump.....set initial pressure on regulator. checked for leaks...... hauled the boat to my mechanic to start it and set the initial timing...... hooked up the water, it fired up immediately....sounded great....it ran for maybe one minute and died......restarted...same thing. Started to really watch the fuel pressure gauge while it ran....... the longer it ran, the lower the pressure got. Reset the pressure to 45#,......same thing. pressure dropped gradually to 22# and engine died. We clamped off the return line from the regulator to tank. Now all fuel is forced to the fuel rail. Same thing.
Swapped pumps from #1 to #2 engine. Used everything in the fuel chain from #2 as before when it died......except the pump supply line (could not reach that to change). Turn ignition on and regulator pressure went to over 80# !!! Reset the pressure to 40# and started the engine........it worked great. Even the initial timing was perfect . ..... Back to Aeromotive again.....i'll tell you about that next post....:eek:

Isn't that just wonderful. I just took mine to UPS yesterday.
Please let me know what you find out so that I can drop a call on them!!!
:mad:

hey blown formula,i realize these were not crate motors,which in all acuality these are crate motors....GM shuts there production line down 45 days a year to produce mercruisers engine line,inwhich mercruiser installs cams and intakes only,and of course a little black paint....now anybody that has delt with prochargers to the extent that i have will know they are not what they are all cracked up to be....but are very good units with the proper engine work completed.....if your fuel presure dropped to 35# you are correct you may have started to lean the complete fuel rail,but in all those facts you forgot or werent informed that mercruisers rev limiters are now controlled with injector pattern not ign timing anymore which means at 5150 rpms(unless az speed has changed them in your computers)your injectors stop adding fuel,to the air ratio... that your motor should not have leaned out,only posibly started to miss a little,or by the problems you are having with your pump,just plain stalled.....now your motor temp not going over 110 degrees does not mean the cyl temps were at that temp.....with chargers even in a negative boost,your cyl temps were probally double that,hense the detonation in a middle cyl....now beleive it or not part of the detonation problem may have been because you werent hard into the throttle....timing cranked up to and your tps only halfway into the fuel.....now i dont know what your original problem for taking the boat to az speed but you may want to research your original problem making sure it was not the same you have now...meaning somebody fixed the motor not the problem...now had your motor been clearenced properly you would now only have a fuel pump/contaminated injector problem....as per your exhaust problem,wow ....but an investment on your part with better exhaust such as stainless marine and youll never have to worry about corroded manifolds.....ive been installing these for ever and only had one problem with a pair that were over six years old,and brownie and jerry stepped up and took care of it for 85 bucks.....now i apologize if i upset you with my first post, but at the start of the racing season CRE did the overhual on my sealed 500 EFI.(being ther the only people aloud to touch these motors....) and after running wide open with the motor dropping from 5350 rpms to 4300 rpms and jumping back up to 5350 and so on,it turned out when they had the motor on the dyno the manuel pump diaphram went out and they replaced it. now what the problem turned out to be was the diphram parts got past the second fiter and contaminated the injectors....sound kinda similar dont it.....but with a little work it was taken care of,with no damage to the engine....why because the motor (tps) was in wide open position,timing cranked up and fuel cranked up...one of the problems with charging a stock motor or a GM HP out of the crate is they are very tempermental,the slightest little problem and ther back on the stand.....clearence the motor correctly and this will stop.....good luck on your venture i was only trying to help..........

:) Hey Offshore Addiction... I am not upset. The original reason it went back to AZ Speed was because of an intercooler that leaked & injested water into the engine.
You do bring up a couple of points though, like, if the water temp is 110, how can the center cylinders be twice that??? Are we taking actual cylinder wall temp or temp of the water around the center cylinders??? or what/how/etc ?????
As far as the rev limiters, I know about cutting the fuel above 5100rpm......my engine ran a max of 4700 before.... and on the days precedeing this incident the engine never saw 4000. The dieing of the engine was at IDLE, not at high speed & it runs fine with a different pump installed.
The conclusion I have drawn is the original pump dumped trash into the fuel rail and leaned out a couple of injectors .... with #5 being the worst. We were able to actually see the crude in the injectors.
As for this engine dieing at idle now, Merc perscribes 37# of pressure minimum......and when the pressure is up at that level or above it works/runs fine now. When the pressure drops to 20#, it cannot supply enough fuel for the injectors to work.
I will find out Friday night!!

good luck friday,your answer to the cyl temp....super chargers compress air,which im guessing you know,in compressing the air creates greater compression in the cyl,which in turn creates heat and lots of it....thats why you dont supercharge high compression motors unless you are compensating with alot cooler fuel....thats why procharger,B&M, recomend pulling your thermostat.to decrease engine temp...and you are only reading water temp on the final leg of the water before leaving the motor.....the only way to catch these problems before hand is to put pyro meters on your exhaust....which will inform you of a noticeable change in your exh temp.....usually just or as detonation starts to happen.... oh, and one thing i forgot to inform you is you should try running a 89 octane instead of 93 as per 89 is a cleaner and truer octane.(less additives to make it) as far as finding fuel with less oxiginating and less alchohol additives try making sure you by fuel in less populated areas,they put these additives in there to have cleaner burning fuels in highly populated areas.....carbonmonoxide.....

Offshore Addiction

could you elaborate some on this statement.

"now anybody that has delt with prochargers to the extent that i have will know they are not what they are all cracked up to be....but are very good units with the proper engine work completed."


I have 2 procharged carbed 502 crates, balanced and blueprinted, inconel exhaust valves, felpro blue head gaskets, heads have been studded, roller rockers, comp cams valve springs. Max rpm so far has been 5300 with 32" bravo 1 props @ just over 6 lbs. of boost. I would like to know what is on your mind.

Blown Formula, sorry to change the subject, I too have the Aeromotive pumps and am thinkng of upgrading.

I do buy my fuel in an EXTREMELY remote location. This town has two gas stations about 400 yards apart.....and that the limits of the town. two gas stations, 2 cafes', 2 grocery stores/convience stores....one marina. That's it!!

Pyrometers.... I've got them in both engines. but the one in the melted engine did not work. I was also trying to get that to work before it melted. I have replaced the thermocouple in the manifold with no result (except the melted engine). I have now also replaced the dual gauge.....and we will see what happens.

Now on the octane rating & what to buy....
89 octane does burn cooler than 91 or 93 octane, I agree. But it also has a lower "flash" point than 91 or 93. Is this part of why high octane is suggested???? to prevent detonation/preignition???
:confused:

Ken, I thought this was an "educational forum" so it's ok. I (we) can use this as a learning tool !! Ask away!!:) You may ask something that I did not think of or I assumed I already knew. The only bad question is the one you don't ask!!

hey ken,sounds like youve pretty much covered your basics! as long as your cyls were clearenced properly to alow for the expansion of your pistons and rings,make sure you run an extra filter in front of your carb,make sure you know how many GPH your fuel seperator filter is capable of,and id also reccomend to go with weldon pumps, or make sure there right....if your running the stock cams that came in your 502 crates thats fine,but make sure you run the longest pipe on your exhaust that you boats capable of handling,seen these cams revert water on stock lenght pipes....your RPM range is better than blown formulas,that takes the stress off your crank shaft and allows the motor to freewheel......one question though? are those gen V or gen VI...GM did have a small problem with soft crankshafts in the V motors and they like to crap them after a couple of hundred hours,they usually get a nice half inch bend in them....other than that fixen boats and racin um is the only thing on my mind!!!!!!!

hey blown formula,the fuel all depends on how there getting the 93 octane,additives,or pure refined fuel.....the pre ignition your talking about, should be compensated by the computer on your motor(your knock sensor) which will change your timing on the fly.dont get your fuel from a station that is to remote,it sits in their tanks to long,another suggestion only,add a little octane booster to the 89to help keep the cyl temps down on your first run....something like 104 octane booster which works real good and you know what it is.....and i beleive the way mercruiser sets up most of their fuelie motors to run on 87,which means 89 is high octane!!!

Blown Formula, thanks for letting me jump in. I just wanted to be polite.:D

Offshore Addiction. Thanks for the info. They are Gen. 6

Offshore Addiction- I would like to disagree with you on octane. I know that some of the computers in boat were programmed incorrectly & the boat ran worse with higher octane then the 87 or 89.

As far as a carb engine & a correctly programed EFI engines the higher octane gas (taking regular gas station gas) gives one a less of a chance of detonating an engine. The higher the octane number the less chance of detonation you will have.

I may be wrong but I sure feel better that I am using 93 octane instead of 87 or 89 in my procharge blown 540.

Here is a link that was posted a while back by someone that talks about octane. gas faqs

This is gettin' better and better. There are a lot of issues in a "melt-down" to deal with....fuel, octane, mechanicals, etc are all good info to discuss here..... we probably all can learn something by exchanging like this...... great!!

turbo jack,youre totally correct about the octane,but these guys are having trouble with the alchohol used to make the higher octane in the aeromotive pumps.....read the last post I wrote and youll see were I told them to add octane booster to the 89 octane fuel to help prevent the detonation.....even when I pull up to a race site i make bearden oil company put a test jar of fuel on the back of there truck(sunuco race fuels) to see if the fuel seperates....when I had the diaphram problem in daytona I dumped my seperator filter in a glass tube and watched it seperate...half fuel,half additives.....I was shocked,now its mandatory before it goes in my boat...Blown 540"s huh! nice, lots of torque.....around here we usually add a little 104 octane phillips racing fuel to keep us from tearing things up,takes an extra set of plugs here and there but there all running......

Hey TurboJack,
are you carb'd or EFI with your 540?
Just curious because I'm setting up to ProCharge my 540MPI.

BF, any word from Aeromotive yet. My pump should get there today!

Guess I'm stuck with running high octane because I'll be running a wide band O2 sensor with my ECU. Most of the good boosters have lead from what I understand??? That would be death to the sensor.

Thanks Guys,
Dave

I recieved my second pump from Aeromotive yesterday by FEDEX. I now have my "new" rebuilt unit AND a second pump. If the second pump does what the 1st one did, then I guess I have a problem!! Let's hope not!!

UPDATE

After I receiving the letter I posted from AZ Speed And Marine.
I fired of a response. This time not holding back. I wrote Jim thanks for informing as to why the aeromotive pump broke down, however your missing the point. I told him I have proof in the way of pictures clearly showing the filter was not installed.
Also that when I brought my injectors to him I clearly stated that the stuff in the envelope contained the epoxy I cleaned out of them. Anyway. today I got a call from Jim. He told me that he is going to submit a claim with his insurance co to cover his mistake.

we will see.

jdelo

NordicHeat- Stage V procharger with twin 450cfm carbs Running about max of 10lbs boost (8.0 compression). Getting to end of first season with setup & pretty happy with setup. Before I went with this setup I was ready to go EFI but have second thoughs now. Jetting seams pretty close. Little rich off idle, just right in midrange, & rich again on top end. I have been afraid to lean out topend anymore until I get a little more time on motor to see how it holds up.

Procharge somewere on their website had a article about the difference between carb & EFI. They say the carb motor if jetted correctly with produce more HP & hold together longer due to the carb setup helps cool the air charge better (thus more HP) than the EFI.

Turbo..... Yeh, I liked my carb version better also.....there was never a problem. However, if I have any more problems with this you can bet I will go back to carb's !! Of course, when & if I did that I would also have to cams and full rollers, not just lifters as Merc does it. I am hoping this latest pump solves my problem.:rolleyes: