....It's for certain now......meltdown !!
 

:( Well, we got the engine out & torn down yesterday........
and #5 is toast. Piston is melted to the top ring land. All other pistons looked normal.... a little sooty as it should be (slightly rich- total rebuild blown EFI 454 MAG MPI by Arizona Speed. Az built this motor and it only has about 8-10 hours on it..... only one cyclinder was fried......all other looked as if they were just put in....????? What caused that lean condition in only ONE cylinder ????? A leaky intake manifold gasket??? A defective injector??? What !!!????? Help me here guys, I don't want this again....Please

was combustion chamber black and piston top light brown-to off white?

the valves were a light to dark brown but the piston was black....all of them......I cannot help but think this is an engine assembly issue (vacuum leak @ #5).??????

Was #5 exhaust valve sucked?

BT:cool:

no burned valves. This is something, huh ??

I'm guessing now, but do you think a blown head gasket could permit enough water into the cylinder to raise compression to detonation levels, but still let the water/steam cool the exhaust valve enough to prevent valve destruction? You are lucky... I alway get total destruction of everything it seems.

BT:cool:

Welcome to the word of High performance boating. Does you piston look like this one? This was on a motor that was running so rich that the transom was always black & fouled out plugs all the time. After tearing up about 4 motors with that carb I finally threw it away.

As far as injector messing up, possible. But I bet all were lean, just this one detonated first

Sounds like a lean condition to me. Possibly patially clogged injector or badly re-mapped ECU. In either case I feel Az Speed and Marine should make good on this one.
A while ago I was considering doing mods to my stock efi motor. Then after hearing of a few horror stories like this, I decided it was best left alone. Personally, I don't trust someone with programming a fuel curve for my motor. This sounds like a prime example of some computer geek who may have GUESSED wrong.
Can you post a picture of the piston??

Don't you guys think a lean condition would smoke the exhaust valve first?

BT :cool:

Not always. I have seen pistons melted first. Besides, what else other than running lean can melt a piston?

Detonation

blown formula,
If you suspect a plugged injector, I have checked them by pulling them out and apply 12v to the injector and spray carb cleaner thru them from the bottom up.. I put a white paper towel under it to see if anything comes out. There is a screen on the input to the injector. I have found all kinds of junk on the screen with this process.If you find anything a complete cleaning of the fuel system is needed.I would check them all just for good measure. You can get an injector connector from Napa and just hook it up to the spare car battery under the bench.
I have a filter before and after the pump to keep the injector screens clean.
Good luck.. I hope you find the cause.

Dick

Turbojack....my piston has about the same black coloring but is not burned as deep. Mine only goes to the top ring land. I caught this early and was not nor had I been running hard. I also do not have as much "scatter" as you did (aluminum spray pattern on top). There was a lot of aluminum transfer to the cylinder wall though. On tear down, there was a little water in several cylinders, but since that engine was not running & there was several opportunities getting back to the dock & loading for water to wash up the exhaust (past the Salisbury flaps). At least thats what I ASSUME.
However, on removing the plugs (still in the water), I saw no evidence of water. I left the plugs out & then drove the boat about another mile to a ramp to load it. So, I think that is where the water came from.......but I could be wrong...??? :confused: I will try the injector cleaning trick to check for blockage this weekend while the block is being done.

Did your engine run hot? What temp?

The engine was never over 110 degrees...., oil pressure was always normal. Fuel pressure did drop to 35# from 45# (boost referenced regulator), but I was never in a boost condition. Fuel pressure dropped & stayed at 35# even at idle. I don't think that was the cause -because only one cylinder was affected.????

Really sounds like blown head gasket causing detonation.

BT :cool:

Dang it !! I sure wish there was a definte & easdy to determine cause of this. With less than 10 hours on a motor, this should not have happened!!

If you weren't already measuring exhaust gas temp, maybe it would be worthwhile after rebuild in case the problem starts happening again. Couldn't hurt. I would have saved an engine I blew on memorial day if I'd known I had heat trouble going on in the combustion chamber. I still haven't tore that motor down cause I've been concentrating on its replacement. Pretty sure I was having a water leak from the exhaust into the combustion chamber on #1. Not sure though.

Good Luck,

BT :cool:

Hey Blown Formula,
please clarify what you mean about the fuel pressure dropping to 35 from 45. Was this upon installation of the new FMU (regulator). In most ProCharged, stock MPI applications, the regulator must be adjusted to a static 50 and then increase either 2:1 or 3:1 relative to boost to increase to 60 and 65 lbs respectively with 5 lbs of boost. If I understand your situation correctly, 35 lbs sounds like a killer weather your under boost or not. ASM probably programmed the ECU to run your rated injectors at the higher pressure. Anything less and it starving.
I'm not that familiar with your setup so I may be way off base but I thought I'd throw that out anyway.
Later,
Dave
:confused:

The head gasket should tell a story if it was not damaged in the breakdown of the motor. Ususally though 2 and 7 are the problem cylinders. PM me, I can give you a couple of things to look for. What kind of blower were you using ?

OK, here we go!!
The fuel regulator did drop pressure from 45# to 35# only on the failed engine. It had done this before & I adjusted it back to 45# base. On the engine failure day, it dropped again to 35# base pressure. Arizona Speed had told me that was OK, as long as I did not go into boost (which I never did). I recieved information from Procharge that the original BLUE regulators on the Merc fuel rail were known to have problems with maintaining pressure. They sent the new rtegulators to me AFTER the engine failed. If these were known to fail, why did Arizona Speed install them rather than the external RED regulators that Procharger was providing at NO CHARGE for all EFI installs and retrofits.?????? It makes one wonder if the motivation of Az Speed is to SELL PRODUCT rather than provide a quality product. My 2nd engine was also worked on ("freshened") and I found the engine mounting bolts ( 2) had not even been tightened down.
What I see here is paying for an expert to do the work & getting a $7.50 per hour helper doing the work....:mad:

Blown Formula,

I had the same thing happen to me. only it was the # 4 &#2 cylinders melted. see post
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forum/sh...hlight=blow+by

Here's the results clogged injectors with epoxy from the Aeromotive 1000 fuel pump. The pump's motor delaminated sending tiny particals of epoxy through the fuel line. Okay all of you are probably asking the inline fuel filter should have caught and blocked the epoxy from entering the fuel line.
Well back in april of 2001 I took my boat over to AZ speed & Marine to install a whipple SC. to make a long story short on my bill listed all the items and labor including the aeromotive fuel pump and aeromotive inline filter. Guess what the inline filter was never installed. Because of a 71.00 mistake a brand new rebulit engine including pulling the motor and for AZ speed remap of 530.00 8300.00 up in smoke. I just recently got back in the water costing me another 4900.00 to rebuild the engine. I sent the bill to az speed let's see if Jim steps up to the plate and takes care of this.

jdelo

jdelo,....Please let us know what ARIZONA SPEED does on your motor, I bet they say "sorry, but it's supercharged and we don't warranty those" ? GO FIGURE, they do the mapping in house & the rebuild.....how could anyone else BE responsible. The ECU would have recorded what went on, would it not? Good Luck on your claim....I'm next in line!!
My block is now done,,,,new sleeve, piston, all new rings, new hone job, all new bearings, seals & gaskets,,,,,, $554.00 just for machine work & parts. Now comes the labor cost.......?????
We will see soon!

Blown Formula,

AZ speed and marine in my case is clearly negligent. By not installing the inline fuel filter. I have pictures that were taken after the Whipple install. It clearly shows the fuel pump but no filter. I agree with you when you say you pay top dollar for an expert but you get the quality of of a 7.50 worker.


JDELO

jdelo - Are you saying the filter should be after the fuel pump instead of before it? ASM did not install any filter at all? I have always put filter before pump not after it. Of course I do not mess with EFI systems.

Simrek is quality all the way....had them on two (3 showers) boats. I would not use any other. Paul has an unbeatable warranty policy......call to find out!! Only the best.:D


How did this get here ?????:confused:

TURBOJACK,

aeromotive's EFI configuration calls for a filter before the fuel enters the pump and after it leaves the pump.

I have the standard merc water/fuel seperator filter B/4 the pump and az speed charged me but did not install the filter to protect components ie (fuel injectors) after the pump. the fuel pump broke down sending tiny pieces of epoxy through the fuel rail, lodging and clogging up the injectors causing the lean condition frying the #4 and # 2 piston

:eek: Ah-Ha!!! Procharger does NOT specify a second filter (after the pump) in EFI applications. HuMMmmmmm, I wonder ???????

Blown Formula,

Did az speed and marine install a aeromotive fuel pump?

If so, you may have had the same thing happen to you.

Check your injectors. the epoxy is rust in color and looks like pieces of plastic.

here's the link to aeromotive products

http://www.aeromotiveinc.com


jdelo

Yes, Aeromotive pump was used with a Merc filter on the inlet side of the pump. No secondary filter. I see on Aeromotives web site they recommend a larger capacity filter on the inlet side with AN-10/12 fittings !!! WOW!!

Learned something here. I am using the areomotive pump also but with 2 carbs instead of EFI. I can see where air temp is high, filter not flowing enought that it could let engine lean out.

this is link on filter info

I wonder if fuel filter on inlet side caused cavitation on pump & caused the epoxy to let loose. So in reality 2 problems. Filter not big enough on inlet & no filter on outlet side.

I've heard a rumor !!! (from the horses mouth BTW)
Until last year the afore mentioned pump had an issue with the epoxy breaking loose and the magnets falling off. This obviously caused pump failure but it appears the fallout from this is even worse.
Aeromotive has re-engineered the pump and now the magnets are mechanically fastened resolving the problem.
:confused:
Your pressure may have dropped do to losing one of the magnets and also leaned a cylinder because of a momentary clogged injector. We may be seeing what could be a viable reason for your predicament but who knows.
Later

Ok, I called Aeromotive & this is what I learned.
The Merc fuel filter/water seperator may be restrictive to the pump in that the micron size of the filter may not allow enough flow to prevent the pump from actually cavitating (boiling) the fuel thru the pump. They recommended their filter #12304 on the inlet side.
In regard to the epoxy tyhat was release by a Aeromotive pump. There was research done after a failure was reported (only in the Marine environment though). The cause was discovered to be high alcohol content in the fuel was, when left idle for extended periods of time (as boats do), the alcohol was desolving the epoxy holding the motor magnets to the pump. Pumps manufactured AFTER May 2002 are mechanically secured to the magnets. No more problem. Pumps may be returned to Aeromotive (with an RA#) for testing and flow checking.
A contributing factor here is the filter water seperator on the inlet side, Aeromotive suggests it be put on the OUTLET side so the pump pushes thru it, not pulling thru it.

See next post to continue:

The fuel pump is recommended to be fed by gravity from the bottom of the tank, not the top. When fed from the top, the "prime" can be lost and the pump can start dry, possibly causing damage to the pump if it runs too long dry. A check valve can be installed to prevent this.

Recomended filters: inlet side #12304
outlet side: #12301

Also, under boost conditions if enough pressure is created in a cylinder, this can cause a "cross-fire" situation. If an adjacent cylinder crossfired to another, then total timing could be changed as much as 30-40 degrees.

They also recommend checking the injectors in my case & also flowing them......

Bottom line: use two filters
flow injectors
plug wires to prevent crossfire
no alcohol in fuel (if possible)
option: fuel check valve to pump inlet

push fuel thru the seperator:D :D

:D
Is that enough to absorb in one day......a complete redesign of our fuel system for EFI application. Carb'd systems can get by with less due the the fact of the lower pressures involved.

This makes me tired!!!:)

Would you put the outlet filter before the regulator or after it? Before regulator than you would not have any addtional pressure drop to engine due to restrictions. After, the filter would not have as much fuel going thru filter (bypassing back) & pressure would be lower, but gauge would need to be on output of filter side to set regulator correctly.

The filter should be on the pump side of the regulator, so only double filtered fuel was dumped into the tank. No chance of epoxy making the trip!! Also, as you said....pressure would be true pressure. I have my electrical senders on the regulator and mechanical gauge mounted to the EFI fuel rail directly at the input fitting. Try to match pressures but rely only on the mechanical for true readings. The gauge is only a "warning" indicator!! not true pressure.

Hey Blown,
See you got the same story as I did. Did he tell you that they would rebuild our older pumps with the new motors for a fair price (I think it was $180). Apparently these put out quite a bit more also. I’m going to do it just for insurance purposes. The longer my project takes, the more it cost, however that may prove favorable in the long run.
You know, you may get a lot of different opinions on this but the best foolproof fuel delivery system that I have encountered is one I learned of after many, many weeks of fighting fuel delivery when I converted to a Holley/HiRel aftermarket MPI setup from a carb setup. You may not have some of the parts but they would be easy to get.
You feed thru the stock separator (or upgrade, it doesn’t really matter even though you think it would) to the mechanical pump that is mounted with the seawater pump. (According to Dennis Moore, author of Big Block Chevy Marine, these pumps put out 120 gph at cam shaft speed; double this for running off the crank via a belt) Bottom line is it will support a lot of hp. You run the line off of the pump to a much larger Racor filter/separator, which is about 8” tall and 4” in diameter and has 3 input and 2 out lets. You extend the fuel pickup inside the filter by about three inches with a 3/8-pipe nipple. The outlet goes direct to the high-pressure pump that is mounted below the Racor level and then routed back up to the fuel rail. (It will also always be primed this way) After it leaves the regulator it immediately runs through a fuel cooler and returns directly to the Racor filter. You will always have an ample suplly of cool fuel.
I have run this setup for four years and it supports my 540ci/575hp motor with a small Volvo/Holley pump that I believe is only rated at 60gph at 43.5psi. HiRel’s fix for what was thought to be inefficient pumps was to run two of them in parallel for over 400 hp; wrong! It has never vapor locked or acted strange in anyway and most importantly the fuel pressure has never dropped below 43.5psi with a single small pump. I will be using the new Aeromotive with the ProCharger however; don’t want to push it.
I have a friend running well over 600hp with his 540 and this setup and also a twin Vortec, 1100hp setup, running the same except for larger 1/2” fuel lines through out and larger high pressure pumps.
Like I said, you’ll get a lot of differing opinions on different methods. The only thing I can tell you is that this is proven and tested as many others are also I’m sure.
Hope this helps,
Dave
:cool:

fuel pumps
 

That is why I used Weldon fuel pumps on my new motor. A little or allot more expensive but first quality aircraft pumps never fail. I always say you get what you pay for. By the way I blew two AZ speed/sun country blower motor because of bad workmanship

NordicHeat, You have found what I also run. The electric pumps don't susk well and because most boats have low fuel tankss and can't gravity feed the electric pumps. I run run like you said thru the seapump driven mechanical to the filter-aeromotive pump -filter and then to a 'T' and feed the back and to the front of the fuel rail ( it is only 1/4-3/8") then to the regulator and dump back to a t infront of the mechanical pump and not the water-fuel separator as you do. Mech pumps suck well and electric build great head pressure.