Help Please!!!! 88 Four Winns Liberator 211 is SLOW!!
 

Hi, I have a 88 Four Winns Liberator 211 with a 350 omc cobra drive. (Says king cobra on the hydraulic arms but doesnt have the distinct hump) A few years back when I originally purchased the boat it would run around 4600rpm-4700rpm at 57mph using a 14x3/4 x 21 SST stainless prop. Now on a freshly built motor running tbe same prop im only getting 4400rpm at 48mph. This is quite frusterating, and it comes out of the hole the same which I think it has a good hole shot. I talked to my engine builder and he said I should be able to run around 4700rpm-4800rpm. Below is some more info on my set-up if at all interested. The outdrive was rebuilt 2 years ago with the heavy duty gears, stock ratio still.


On a tired motor last summer I got a good deal on a weiand 142 blower and decided to put it on, knowing my motor was tired, I knew it wouldnt last long. After a couple hard test runs with the blower I blew a head gasket. I pulled the motor and had it mildly built by a well known local engine builder. Its bored 30over, has a mild cam that matches my edelbrock aluminum heads and intake, msd distributor and coil along with a new edelbrock 600 carb topped with a marine k&n air filter. Timing is set at 12º advanced and 37º total timing.

Thank you for your time and I'm looking forward to your suggestions

Speed gps or dreamometer? Tach accurate? Something is off with numbers. What's the prop pitch? 14 3/4 would be diameter. 19 or 21 is likely pitch. What is drive ratio? Was motor dynoed?

Speed was on a handheld Garmin GPS, I am unsure if the tach is accurate, prop pitch is 21. I am unsure of drive ratio, I am thinking the stock ratio is 1.43:1 if I recall. Motor was not dynoed

I would be asking my builder where is my power. Do you still have the blower on?

I sold the blower after I blew the head gaskets.... My family has known the guy who built my motor for 20+ yrs, he assures me that it is built properly for marine application. He has came out and checked it over, double checked timing, it has 1 gallon of race fuel to 10 gallons of super premium ethanol free fuel

Where can you get "super premium ethanol free fuel" in west michigan?

There is a Citgo about 5 miles from my work, they are the only place that offers Super Premium Ethanol Free fuel.

http://citgo.mycstore.com/13697012

it is a little mom/pop little full service station, LOVE IT!!

http://www.fourwinns.com/upload/Docu...Facts_1988.pdf
Page 52 shows 46-48mph for this boat with a 270 horse 350. Just a reference.

That is an awesome manual, thank you for posting that. I know for a fact that this boat would go 57mph consistantly on my garmin gps

Can you post the specs of the build cam/compression/heads?
There are some very knowledgeable folks on this board and can give a basic HP correlation. Then they can determine if you have
more or less power for comparison.

Post your engine specs and where the timing is set . We need some details to get it sorted out . If you were running those numbers before the rebuild and lost speed and rpm's after something is amiss and I would bet it is cam choice . Also advanced timing on a marine engine is no good , 34* as compared to your 37* as stated in the other thread .

Then your original engine was not stock. If not stock, then it was better than what you have now.

Stock 260/270hp motor in your boat is not 57mph capable.

We need correct information from you so that we can give you correct information back to you.

Okay, re read your first post. This is what I'm gonna' comment on "4600rpm-4700rpm at 57mph using a 14x3/4 x 21 SST stainless prop"

Which means your GPS speed was right (sorry, I have to doubt when diagnosing) and what that means furthermore is that was some performance work done to your old motor.

The person who built your current engine did so to near stock specs (cam and carb wise) and thus you got near stock results.

It's a bummer you thought last tired motor was stock and thus why disapointed now.

Sum of a beatch huh ?

Why on earth running such high octane gas on a stock build?

You also went from 13% slip to 22%. On top of what SB said. If you spin the exact same rpm with the exact same prop and gear ratio there will be no gains anyhow.

I agree. Major slip change.

99.9% Engine builders can only quote what engine is good for rpm wise, not what certain prop on a certain boat will pull it at WOT.

I will have to dig up the specs on this motor tonight and re-check the timing to see what it is at. When I bought the boat, it had the the edelbrock aluminum heads and intake and a stock carb on it. The person I bought the boat from only had it for 1 yr and knew nothing about the motor, so if someone did do some internal work on it, it must have been done 2 owners ago. I am using the same heads and intake as before but a different carb.

Get the blower back!!!!............... Problem solved!!:party-smiley-004:

I originally filled it up with 40 Gallons of Premium from a Wesco right around the corner from the boat launch I use. I took the boat for a ride and it was sluggish and didnt want to come out of the hole at all. The guy who built my motor told me to drain that 40 gallons and to run the super premium from this Citgo, he wanted me to run that because it is Ethanol Free fuel. I told me for every 10 gallons of it to run 1 gallon of the race fuel they offered at the same citgo. He said the race fuel has Zinc or something in it that would be good for the flat tappet lifters in my motor. I drained out the Wesco premium and filled up with the Ethanol Free and man what a difference, the motor ran smoother and came out of the hole alot better. I was 100% skeptical when he told me to switch fuel, I told him he was nuts but I was wrong, it made a difference.

I thought about it, should have never sold it.... I have so much money into this boat, I don't know what to do anymore

I just remembered, I had a discrepancy with a marine mechanic about the distributor in my motor. To me it looks like it is a locked distributor, there is no mechanical or vacuum advance. I think it should have mechanical advance in the distributor, but he says that this locked one is the way to go??

Zinc (ZDDP) in your engine oil is good for flat tappet cams. Your fuel should not be interacting with your lifters in any way, shape, or form. Now, if the race fuel has lead in it then that is good for valve seats but with today's hardened seats lead is not necessary.

I hope he meant oil with zinc, because if you are using Race Fuel to break in a cam there is a whole different world of problems.
I think you may have misquoted him. lol

I apologize its been a long day, you are correct. Zinc is in the oil I'm running and it was the Lead in the race fuel :)

Please post your engine specs to keep this thread from jumping all over the place . This engine is not built to stock specs so you guys assuming that it is are wrong . The same prop was also used before the rebuild . After the rebuild there is a loss of speed and rpm . We need compression ratio , cam specs , model of intake and exhaust used . We have Edelbrock heads , intake , Edl. 600 carb , K&N flame arrester , 37* of timing and race fuel .

You sound like me.

Gawd I feel bad for you. He, he.
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99.5% of the time people ask for help on forums (I won't mention real life because that's what I do and it can become worse) they don't or can't give us all the info and we are expected to come up with the right answer.

All we really need to know is the old cam (#'s will be on it) and new cam and we can go from there.

You know how many times I get told, "Yeh, it's an RV cam." My answer always is "What the f*k is an RV cam ?"

I also get " I have a Stage 4 Computer Chip " and my answer always is "What the f*k is a Stage 1,2,3,4,5 or whatever anything ?"

LOL.

One's who get pissed and think I'm stupid get let go. The one's who smile, shrug there shoulders, gigle, or anything that shows "Yeh, I know, that means nothing" gets help.

RV cam = 3/8 of a 3/4 race cam......:evilb: Your a good man to have around .

my 87 cobra motor had a points distributor. surprised the heck out of me. if he has something else in there now and doesn't see a mech advance, there is a chance there is no advance. also early king cobras looked just like cobras and had 1.3-something ratios. 1.36 1.38?

Race fuel with Zinc and oil with lead....somehow I don't think I'm gonna get good info on camshaft and tuning specs to help much here.

And just so people know, regular Edelbrock small block heads aren't any better than the Vortecs. Better than most factory offerings, but not world beaters either.

Like any decent head, the cam choice will make or break an engine power wise. So won't carb tuning.

Can the old carb be thrown on to see if it's your new carb not getting it done ? You wouldn't believe the difference from something like the secondaries not opening much vs fully opening. Difference is like a NOS shot.

Let's get to work on what cam is in there. That way we'll know if an engine paramter issue or a tuning issue.

Thanks.

Yep , vacuum secondaries in the Edl. tend not to want to open with the low rpm's he's turning . That's the reason I told the op in his other thread I prefer mechanical secondaries for a marine engine .

In small boats with Holley Vac secondaries, the faster you open them, the faster they plane. I have a few boats with the lightest spring Holley offers. They are so light they can sometimes keep the secondaries open a tad when the boat is brought back to idle speed. Engine has to be shut off and then restarted for the secondaries to close.

Absolutely brutal on the ALfalfa drive acceleration. LOL.

People tell me all the time you shouldn't open them so fast and a small block only needs blah blah blah blah amount of CFM at a certain rpm.

My answer is simple. Step away from the computer and math and go freakin play with engines and tuning.

Famous quote: If your results don't follow your theory, get a new theory. LOL.

You got it brother . What works best in the real world isn't always in the rookie book .

+1,,,, kyle,,i have a customer that has a 211with a 460 ,,485 hp and 550 ftlbstq,,he spins a 16 x 20 mach 4 blade @ 4800 rpms and on the gps its only doing 63 mph..that hull has a major hook in it and is most likely slowing you down..ps the hump back king cobra driver are 91 and up..yours is a dog clutch king cobra..

Here is the specs of the cam that was used. My builder is trying to dig up everything on my motor, hopefully I will he back from him soon. exhaust is stock manifolds, exhaust comes out the sides of boat, recently just put on some free flowing mufflers.

Comp Cams

Cam Style:Hydraulic flat tappet
Basic Operating RPM Range:1,200-5,200
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift:212
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift:212
Duration at 050 inch Lift:212 int./212 exh.
Advertised Intake Duration:260
Advertised Exhaust Duration:260
Advertised Duration:260 int./260 exh.
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.440 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.440 in.
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.440 int./0.440 exh.
Lobe Separation (degrees):110

Thanks, that is good to know. The whole cobra, king cobra gets me all confused and I never know which one I have.

Thank you for posting the cam !

You have a 300-310hp motor if the carb is tuned in right and working 100% correctly. This is assuming your Edelbrock Heads are the Edelbrock Performers.

BTW: As a reference. I used to use that cam in 2wd Full Size Pickups with headers and 600 Holley's that towed. Great tow package - I miss those days ! If it didn't tow I'd use the 268H which was 218/218 at .050" on a 110.

On I/O's with decent heads and an exhaust with water introduced a little back further from stock a HR with 218/224 on a 112 works perfect.

Is the cam what is holding me up at 4400rpms and 47-48mph?

21' boat... about 3500lbs wet....300hp 350...48mph sounds about right.

whats worse is guys like me that buy a rebuilt motor and have no frigging idea whats inside then need you guys to give me advice!
In the end you have no idea how much help your info is to a rookie, we learn what not to do next time