Another Engine Dynoed today.
 

My buddy Joe is a happy guy today. He has a 42 Fountain. When he bought the boat, it had prochargers. M4's. Since day 1, the boat, or should I say engines, pretty much sucked. Someone had slapped edelbrock heads on them, huge dished pistons, wrong cams, all kinds of issues. The boat never ran right, and he battled trying to make them right. They made good dyno numbers, but they simply werent user friendly. We made some improvements to them, but still, he wasnt enjoying his boat.

With myself, Mike Tkach, Icdedppl, we talked him into going to a roots blower setup. He wants to go boating, and while some may say roots blowers are old technology, dont make as much power, and so on, one thing you cant debate, is they flat out work in marine applications.

So, what we set out to do, was stay with what he had as far as shortblocks. We emphasized the importance of cylinder head technology, cam technology, carb technology, etc, and had a budget to stay within. We worked with RMBUILDER Bob Madara, and came up with a Head and cam combination for this build. In my opinion, the end result, was fantastic. Here is a rundown of the parts of the build.

522ci (4.00 x4.560 bore)
Dart Block
Lunati Signature series Crankshaft
Oliver Connecting rods
Race Tec custom pistons (compression ended up around 8.2:1)
Air Flow Research 315CC full CNC cylinder heads (supplied by Bob)
Morel Hi RPM hyd lifters (supplied by Bob)
.135 Wall pushrods
MLS head gaskets
ARP head studs
Comp pro Steel rockers
stud girdles (supplied by Bob)
Littlefield 10-71 Supercharger
Blower Shop intercoolers
Quick Fuel 1050 Carbs (4150 Style).

With the help of Bob M, and Mike Tkach's excellent assembling skills, the engine didnt skip a beat. We could have exceeded 1000HP with a glory pull by leaning her down a bit, but decided to leave it as is. The engine idles very well at 900RPM and is very responsive. At max RPM, intake air temps were 110 degrees on this pull. Carbs, were almost right on out of the box from quickfuel. We went down 2 jet sizes and that was it. No air bleed changes, nothing like that. The HP was nice, but what impressed me was the torque this little 522 made. Good stuff guys.

That thing is making some jam!

Great numbers, and looks like it was still pulling when you shut it down.

Wow!

AF ratio is pretty much a constant!

Cool stuff.

When you mentioned budget I imagined totally different hardware. He must have had a decent budget because that is all good stuff ! I know, Bob is very reasonable with prices, and you guys probably knew where good deals where the other things. So maybe that's where the 'budget' term came in ? LOL.

Hope others are paying attention to the parts used (I'm not undermining the builder(s) on this statement) as these are all good parts for a performance marine build. Very good, very strong parts.

Builders/friends/support/owner - You guys done good !

Hope he has lots of fun with it.

Im glad that on this side of the Lake we share our results with fellow boaters so that we all learn and benefit in the end.
I`m very happy for Joe B.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HquzPc2V06s&list=UUbIu9JcqtIlRpJCJr2T7mMQ

Well he had the shortblock parts already. I guess when i meant budget, was what he wanted to spend on the builds. Things like whipples , new longer stroke cranks, efi, werent in his budget. But yes, he does have some nice pieces.

Almost every set of these quick fuel blower carbs work nicely. Mike tkach can attest to them on several builds . I really like them for the money.

That dyno sheet has all the right numbers, motor sounds awesome congrats :drink:

Prior pull, with about 6psi, did 872hp. 8psi was 930ish

Starting early this year!!!!


Or late from last year....

i am very happy with this build,i was expecting around 930 hp at 6500 so the xtra 55 hp was a bonus.the torque numbers also put a smile on my face.it was a real pleasure working with bob madera and his knoledge helped this project do well.we all know how important the camshaft is in any engine and bob is the man when it comes to designing a cam for any engine.i highly recomend giving him a call if you are planning an engine build,he is now on my speed dial.:party-smiley-048:

Mike it is a great build with awesome results! with that said it is great that you recognize Bob M. But let me be the guy that will recognize your skills and attention to detail that without a doubt was as important if not more so to the success of this build. I have built enough engines in my life to be qualified (I think) to recognize/appreciate your skills.. Great Job Mike!

thank you for the kind words.i take a lot of pride in my work.

Love the torque curve, or lack thereof.

Very nice work fellas!

Nice job guys. What fuel is he going to run with that set up? Same pulleys & boost???

It was run on the dyno with shell 93 octane. Will be run on the lake with same fuel. Intake manifold air temps were plenty cool on the dyno. Once in boat both intake temps and air fuel ratio will be monitored while test running things

Really nice to hear the kind words about all involved! Congradulations to the owner of the new mill.

Wow! Nice job guys. Just curious what did you end up with as far as ignition timing?

Yes sir. Mike is a definite asset for our little group of friends down here. Not only does he assemble a great engine, he keeps an open mind and always willing to try new things. The machine shop we work with down here is also great. They have top notch equipment in house, and a great crew, down to the dyno operator who is simply a pleasure to work with.

These kind of builds make it fun for guys like me. I get to be surrounded by guys like Mike, Bob M, the guys down at the machine shop, and get to learn some great stuff. I mean sure its great to drop an engine off at a builder and let him handle everything, but we are just gear heads who like being hands on and involved with the build. Abones wish you didnt live so far cuz youd fit right in with our group, and be a great guy to have around ! We definitely have a few laughs in the process too.

Sounds like what I have here going on, great machine shop, best friend is a great builder and helps me make sure things are right, you know what I am up to here with my mess.... cannot wait to fix it all!!

great numbers on the dyno! what was the issue with prochargers? I know a few people with them and love them no issues, just curious? or was it other issues that made it hell for him before like mine?

Nice work guys! I have to call bob today and get some things squared away for a pair of 515's with 8-71's

I wish I could get into a crew like that around here. I don't know much about engines, which you already know lol, but I can run a mill and lathe well enough to handle a lot of the accessory mounting work that comes with assembling from scratch a complete engine.

Sounds like a blast!

34 deg.the dist is locked out.supercharged engines like the advance from start to finish.

Ok I'll be the first, how much for a clone? lol! Great teamwork guys

Ok, this comment through me a curve ball. Are you saying that since he's only running 10 lbs? Which some may say is kinda up there for those 20 min WOT fun run's. Is he going to run a detonation sensor / monitor? What were EGT's like through the pull?

Andy

Very nice build guys. Joe I'm curious what year is the 42? Also engine config. Stag or side by side? When do y'all plan to water test? Hats off to everyone on what looks and sounds bad ass.

Mike, its a 1997 Staggered 42 with Imco SCX drives.

Hey Andy. I've been running 34 degrees in my blower engines for a long time with good results. Actually for a while, they were at 35* total. Mercury, ran 35* in the 525sc, and 33* in the 600sc. No intercoolers and iron heads. Granted the boost was less, but the air charge was much hotter in those.

I think what scared guys away from ignition lead, was the fact 20 years ago, guys were tuning their engines by glancing at a spark plug once and while. When the engine would get hurt, they'd blame timing, and retard it. Not realizing their fuel tune was way off, their cam choice was way off, and other issues. So they retarded the timing to help crutch the engine, from hurting itself again.

The chamber design, camshaft design, crankshaft stroke, air intake temperature, coolant temperature, quench factor, engine rpm, will all play a role in what an engine will like, or tolerate, as far as ignition lead. The days of retarding the timing to 28* in a big block to keep it together should be long gone.

I have no issue with 34 or even 35* at 6000 RPM. However, I would be all for, running a programmable ignition, such as the Daytona Sensor box, where it allows you to pull timing around around Peak Torque range, but still have lots of lead at idle and WOT. IMO, that is where you'll get into trouble with too much lead. You prob wont hurt it holding it at 6300RPM wide open for a poker run, but you may hurt it cruising along at 4500RPM with a boat full of people on a leisurly ride, if in fact, you have excessive lead.

As far as the EGT temps, hottest I saw on this yesterday was about 1320 on the #5 cylinder. Most were in the mid to upper 1200's.

More timing = less egt, burn starts earlier and less heat is left over to go out the exhaust.

Now, to add to my prior post, I WOULD NOT try running 35* with a small block vortec style head and a blower. :cartman:

EGTS were 11s and low 12s. People misunderstand boost , horsepower, fuel octane etc... mostly has to do with the air intake temps and a/f ratio.....mine at 20% overdrive never exceeded 114 degrees....i believe the rule of thumb is to below 200 degrees on the hottest day. EGT's mainly also deal with detonation from timing...alot of times when retarding timing you will see egts creep up and get hotter... Mike tkach or mild thunder step in and correct me if I'm wrong on any of this...

Can't wait to hear water results. There's a nice staggered 96 in the classifieds. Lol

Theres entirely too many things that play a part as far as fuel octane , timing requirements , and so on. I dont believe their is any set number to use as a guideline. Every engine is different. Every boat is different.

A heavy vee bottom may run into detonation at peak torque rpm, faster than a light cat at peak torque rpm.

Even the quench design of the piston plays a part in timing. Better piston design, less timing will be required as a more homologous mixture will give you a faster more efficient burn.

In some of the turbo 4 cylinders we used to race we ran lower timing on our motors and trapped faster than others. We weren't stuffing in run of the mill Wiseco pistons though, we were running a custom slug with a quench pad on the top to distribute better. It worked, and we also had far less knock issues than others, running boost in the high 30's to lower 40's.

Agree'd. I've always found marine vs. strip tuning interesting. And this one is no different.

For thought / strategic tuning provoking purposes only - If power output starts to dive as you get near the high 10's A/F, but more fuel is safer on pistons and valves, where does cylinder washing, and oil contamination concern start? Advancing timing definitely saves the exhaust valves as others have mentioned, but can increase cylinder pressure which has multiple consequences. This is where one might say EFI has a protection advantage with a full time knock monitor. And helps when tuning with fuel and air temperature 30 degree's possibly warmer than dyno. Bu EFI doesn't have a venturi with fuel further cooling the airtrac as far upstream as possible. In my carb'd blow thru boosted Cobra, i'm adding a knock sensor with external LED on dash. Might be something to think about for the final tuning.

Thanks for posting these type of builds. Very cool and hope to see some video's or at next's year NIOC Thunder Run.

I have no experience with setting up a knock system on a carb deal. Although, i have heard that for it to really work like say a stock LS1 management , it takes a whole lot of setting up. Things like deciphering at what frequency knock is actually taking place. Where knock occurs in say a supercharged 540ci marine engine may not produce the same harmonics as a factory LS1 engine. The last thing i want is to record false knock, and have my ignition pull timing away while at wide open throttle.

That stuff is over my head though. Something for the experts to answer. Heck im still in the world of playing with carb jets :)

These company's attached below makes a few different systems. Depending how interactive you want to get. In my application, if I were to go closed loop, I wouldn't pull more than 5 degrees of timing in an event scenario. (I've retarded more at full boost and it didn't sound pretty) How good the recorder filter is definitely a concern. The second link wants you to measure piston size for baseline setup.

http://www.knocklink.com/KnockBlock.html

http://www.phormula.com/Default.aspx

When we ran knock sensors on carbed blowers with distributors, there was an MSD module that plugged in to their box and would pull 5* out if it showed a knock from the sensor. Extremely low tech but a good investment at the time.
A fella told me once that setting up a blower in a boat is unique, because the load on a boat is like a car running uphill, pulling a trailer, all the time! So much more is available with the new EFI stuff it's amazing.

The question is, was it really working as it should.

I may start another thread on this timing topic. I really dont want to derail this thread into a timing debate. Lots of good stuff about this build in other areas

I will say this though, this is definitely not the first marine blower setup this group of fuktards has done. Ive got a pair of 800hp blown 468s i been beating on for a long time, icdedppl has twin 900hp 540s, mike tkach had 950hp 540s on his cat he built that never skipped a beat, and now 1200hp whippled 588's. Not to mention mike and the race shop where we dyno have belted out quite a few over the years too. But i am all for learning new tricks. Just because my engines havent blown up, doesnt mean i still cant improve them or factor in some safety to them. :)

The purpose of this thread was to give a result of a parts combination that worked well. Slap some edelbrock heads on this build, a shelf comp hyd roller, a pair of molested 750 carbs, and it would have struggled to make 750hp.

Im gonna start another thread regarding a programmable timing control and knock systems for engines like this. Id like to talk about the benefits of something like the daytona sensor ignition , etc. Im considering getting into that part of playing with these builds. Andy motorman id love to hear your input when i do. You are a sharp dude ! :helmet: