So you really think that a plain Jane 50wt oil gives you more valvetrain stability than a 40wt in every case? Maybe morel should rethink their recommendation on oil weight... Too viscous of an oil DOES NOT mean more protection. Where do you guys get this crap?

A straight 40wt or 50wt is the same viscosity at 100 celcius as any other similar weight oil, PERIOD! The only reason you wouldn't want to run it is because racers use pan heaters because the stuff doesn't flow for squat at startup temperatures. Straight race oils also have in most cases very few friction modification and no detergents(to ward off detonation). These oils are changed frequently, so there is little if any deposit penalty paid.

See here's my beef with your comments. First these lack any data. Second all oils perform slightly different in a given engine design/application. Doubt you tried them all.. You don't have 100's of UOA's backed by documented tear downs, and no offense, but its apparent you understand little beyond the basics of oil, yet your post makes people that might not know any better think you have it all figured out regarding which oil weight to use. Let's stick to the facts.

I don't run straight weight oils. get your facts straight.

Edit in: I get close to the same performance with Rotella 15-40 as I do many other 20-50's.

I run what works best for me.

Your mileage may vary.

========================

BTW: I run synthetics in my snowmobile so I can pull start the damn thing when it's below 0. Bigger the bore, the harder it is to pull. Mines pretty big. No, that's not what she said. LOL.

BTW#2: When under 20F, I run synthetic 5w-30 in my truck and cars so the oil get's thru the motor faster.

BTW#3: My wife's 06 Honda civic won't crank over when below -10F because of 'stiction' (the term we call the cold oil sticking the piston to the cyl wall - same thing that happens with my snowmobile example above) combined with the tiny battery that's in these Honda's. Synthetic 5w-30 let's it crank over no problem.

BTW#4 - Mercruiser's oil is what, 25w-40 ? Not so different in weight than I run...is it ?

Lastly, Borgie, again, I really understand your passion with oil. I do. And we get some info out of it. I just think you get too involved and too heated with it. As I mention in all the oil threads, when was the last time any of us saw any failures do to the type of oil itself ?

Notice, I used no caps, no bolds, no exclamation points - therefore, I am not yelling nor getting pissed. just telling you so you don't assume I am.

Borgie, how many hours have you logged on bbc offshore marine engines? Last i checked you still havent fired up your 600hp 496 you built.

You are very up to date and i strongly feel you are a sharp guy especially when it comes to the articles youve read about oils. I personally have not spent nearly as much time researching oils as you, because simply i dont feel the need to. I have never encountered any engine wear related to improper viscosities or failures from doing so.

once youve logged a few thousand hours using your 10w40 redline, id say your comments arent backed by anything factual or scientific.

Engineers validate their theories by testing them in real world. Lets stick to the facts, like youve said. 100s of uoas or hundreds of hours of successful engine hours...ill take the run time.

See what happens with these oil threads ? LOL.

God they can suck.

Pssst: Still. please. please, one person come forward and tell us you had an engine failure due to a certain oil you used.

Last time I checked this isn't the only engine I've ever built nor boat. I don't just log onto a website and pretend to be an expert. Do you know my sources. Please do a search of all my oil threads and tell me I'm wrong. Simply running a 50wt in anything proves absolutely nothing, so you rationale is utterly false...

And seeing as you have so many thousands of hours of use please share! I seem to remember you recommending higher viscosity drive oil based on other racers and because there was "less fuzz" on the drain plug magnet. Oh and because thicker is BETTER. Please do me a favor and read up on lubricants before you chose to use loose personal experience along with a weak attempt to bash and discredit me..Now that's surely scientific data right there. Only on OSO folks..

Thank you for explaining what engineers do.. They also validate through thousands of UOA's, tear downs with accompanying measurements in a controlled environment. Yes I'm aware. However there is plenty of racing data showing a 50wt oil is in pretty much all cases overkill and much too viscous. Please feel free to read up on the topic. Granted it's one part in a BBC, however, morel does not recommend a 50wt oil for their lifters. Kinda takes the wind right out of SB's statement of more Valvetrain stability.

Did anyone say anything about engine failure???!! Please stop being dramatic to bolster your unscientific and data less "opinion" on a topic you know nothing about.

Wow you pour 20w-50 into a marine motor and it survives season after season. Well hell, that there is the best darn oil weight you can buy. Anything below 50wt must cause instability in Valvetrain(no) and it will actually offer less protection because the number is lower. See your flawed logic?

Uh well I'd like to be able to but.........I only use Mercruiser 25W-40. When you could only get it in dino I ran it. Now that you can get it in semi syn I run that in 25W-40. In the three SBC and the 4 BBC I've owned well you guessed it - no oil related failures. But I've always changed at 25 hrs or seasonally whichever comes first.

Um, yeh,

Wanna Play ?

I spent a few years changing lifters, springs, retainers, rocker arm ratio's (wanna know my findings on those ?) , camshafts, oil pumps. oil pans, windage trays, profiled cranks, and yes,
friggin damn oil.

Wanna know why ?

Chasing hyd lifter instability issues with many, many sbc and bbc engines. The BBC engines ran into it at an earlier rpm than the small blocks.

Drag race. Street Race. MArine. Circle Track.

So bite me ! There's an exclamation point for you.

Scientific or not - show me someone else here including yourself that when thru that much dam schit.

Want me to go further ?

And yes, Now you are pissing me off !

Yes I do wanna play. Please tell me how this in any way relates to a thick oil like 50wt? Please explain your testing. You have zero knowledge of lubricants and it's obvious.... You are pissed, sounds like a personal problem to me. The "well if it ain't broke, don't fix it" approach doesn't work anymore hoss, sorry.. "Frickin damn oil", that's a new term.

Just to remind you, we are speaking on oils here. Not crankshafts, Valvetrain etc. Yes they all become relevant, however again, it's not bolstering your point. Please do some reading and come back once you understand what VI of oil is and the basic base oils.... Until then you are siding with someone who likes 50wt thick stuff. Plain and simply. I'm stating that a 50wt isn't needed in many of these engines. There are always other "variables" however it's always smarter to run a multi grade with a lower cold start viscosity number period.

You are attacking the topic of oil related failure which we aren't even discussing here. A properly designed engine with a modern oil, even with a less than optimal viscosity will likely never fail due to lubricition breakdown. This was something experienced in the early days. Many builders blame oil, however they don't back these claims with evidence.

So please, go further....

I'll go into what I found and why it worked as it pertains to valvetrain stability with HR and HR Rollers .

But first.

Give me a few paragraph history of your testing with oils.

Thank you.

You made the claim of "valvetrain stability", so please enlighten me. What does my testing have to do with anything in this arguement? I know my stuff regarding oil.

SB don`t get sucked in.. Borgie does not play well with others.
Borgie your first post was informative and impartial.. the rest are just insults and put down because someone does not share your opinion.
You give no credit to guys who have been running and taking apart motors on a daily basis? Based on what? Articles you`ve read? Is there any real world experience on your part..(seriously I have no clue what your occupation is, maybe its a chemist??)

My guess would be most oil companies aren`t bringing in 900hp DYI motors to test so the only data comes from the field.

Someone around here has been exuding narcissistic traits the last couple days , not to mention any names . Intelligence with zero common sense is worthless . Talking down to well respected and admired members in such a condescending tone , well I hope you never need their help because I'm sure none will be forthcoming .

Nobody is being sucked in here. The way I see it this Is a debate. Do you have anything to offer besides sticking up for your friends as per usual? Not trying to bust your ballz, I just don't see this as an attack. SB wants to talk oil, I want to see if he's credible. He wants to turn this into something its not(ie viscosity of oil as it pertains to failure).

Intelligence with no common sense, well that's interesting... Sorta sounds like "your opinion". For a second here let me make you aware of something DEEP, I enter into discussions to which I'm well versed in. I don't come on here and start taking about my expertise in blowers, prop selection, outdrives etc. These are things I'm still learning, and honestly some which I will probably continue to know little about. That said, I'm not an "expert" in lubricants but I know quite a bit to get by. It's funny to see people here assume they know my background. That's fine as I prefer a certain level of anonymity anyways. I'm certain you wouldn't label me a narcissist if I started talking about fountains for example, and one of these members interjected.

You can feel free to post an intelligent and common sense response to this lack of common sense you are citing, because to be honest I can't quite recall..

Again my point is, just because 15w-50, 20w-50 "work" they aren't always optimal. There is more to oil than viscosity when discussing "film strength" for example. I never once brought engine failure into the picture here. Most here don't even pull a UOA.

lets all just try to get along.relax borgie you are well versed about oil,no one id disputing that.i run 15-40 oil in marine engines under 700 hp,above that i like 20-50.i always use good quality oil.when we dyno them i always put a small load on the engine until i see 160 min temp before pulling on it.in my 2012 honda i use 0w20 amsoil.imo there is no magic theory on what oil to use.myself and some of the others posting on this are just stating what works for them.we all have different ideas about oil but at the end of the day whatever works for you is a winner!i was at the local farm&fleet today and came across 5 gallon buckets of mystic 15w50 semi synthetic for 55 bucks.from what i have heard about mystic products i think i will try this in the next higher hp build.i pay attention to some of the respected members here and have learned from them and there experiance.

I agree Mike. Maybe I do get a little "overly passionate", however I do appreciate the knowledge here shared from you and others. There is no magic oil as you said, however I just want folks to know that heavier isn't always better. To each their own.

Yes, mystic is a great product which I have used personally. They are now owned by CITGO.

I think you should try that 0w20 in your 1200hp marine engines mike! And remove the oil coolers. As long as you use a boutique oil you should be just fine. Prob pick up a couple mph and be PLEASANTLY SURPRISED how it works out at 6500rpm

I like they mystik greases and gear oils, so i bought some 15w50 mystik oil from the farm store. Its already in my oil pans for next summer. Icdedppl is using it too now. The price is nice. Ill gladly change it out more frequently at the price point its at.

i think a 500 hp street car engine would not need to worry as much as that same engine in a heavier boat because it is not going to get run as hard for long periods of time.i agree with you,a low hp street engine would do better with a lighter viscosity oil,espically in my neck of the woods.it gets mighty cold around here in the winter.i get a little woried about the 15w40 in my diesel truck in the winter.in my gm trucks[gas]i run 5w30 all year.

So Mobil 1 tells this guy, 15w50 is ok to use in summer time in nee jersey, but in winter time, recommends 0w40 or 10w40 due to the cold winter temps there. Makes sense to me. If 15w50 is acceptable in a overhead cam bimmer in the summer, should be just fine in my old loose pushrod blown big blocks.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...in_Winter.aspx

and and and do not forget I have Mystik 15w 50 JT8 syn blend motor oil and their gear lubes in about 250 marine apps going into my third year of using it and selling it. just messin here but NO BS about the 250 marine apps.

Here is a good friend of mine who does this stuff for a living maybe I can get him to come up here for some good education. www.dysonanalysis.com Scroll down and click on & listen to his bio off of the youtube video.

Actually about 15 of us all pitched in opinions to help start Bob is the oil guy website about 15 years ago. The guy who started it, Bob Winters lived in Florida and was a large Schaffers Oil wholesaler & retailer to a lot of the dirt track crowd around the South East.

bob is the oil guy website back in the hay day really had 3 main people on the site that really knew their stuff. They were - Terry D. who owns Dyson Analysis, the screen name guy called Molcure (spelling) and Bob himself plus some guys from NORIA. All of them are long gone from that site. See Noria was the site to be on at first, it was filled with THE EXPERTS but later on it got over ran by the public so hence Bob is the oil guy started by Bob Winters

Some real info for the guys on bob is the oil guy website, it is not even close to what it was in years past for expert information.

Yes I'm familiar with terry, and I disagree on bobs knowledge, however the others you noted I can concur. I post 1 link to bobistheoilguy and now that's where I get my information... Not true. I'm glad 50wt is working out for you. Again, what does this prove BUP?! Has absolutely nothing to do with my point if that's your intent.
Mystic has a great reputation, I will give you that.

A fact still remains, if you are running a shear stable oil a 0w/5w/10 40wt in a BBC will work better at startup than a 15w-50 20w-50 etc. The 50wt is overkill, and actually with use maybe the reason it seems to be ok is that it loses viscosity with use.. ie that 50wt oil becomes a 40wt after it's been in use. However UOA's would be the only way to show if this is happening. Just because the given oil has tons of VII doesn't mean its necessarily being sheared with a given engine design as you are likely aware. I am not refuting that a 50wt can and does "WORK" in a BBC marine endurance application.

Also, not taking away from Terry's knowledgd base, he's a smart guy, however he like many of us has a vested interest in a lubricant company, of which I won't list. Just food for thought.

I know you perform UOA's, however have you done any tear downs of these motors utilizing JT-8? Would be very interesting if you do. Thanks

One more thing, in the high horsepower applications you are running, what are your oil temps?

I will agree with you about Bob Winters his own indepth but to further explain what I met was he posted info that was good info to learn from especially for a person to learn behind a computer. You said you had sources for your depth and listed bitog site. I didn't. So what are your sources ?

next NORIA was the expert site to get info from not BITOG site.

How do you know Terry D ? He is a lot smarter than you think he is about this stuff. He has done a lot of work for me in the past and was spot on with his results and indepth.

Next for your info Citgo always owned Mystik and they Citgo intro Mystik way back on Oct 1 2003, It has been around. They do have an almost full marine specific line to the retail consumer that has been out for 3 or 4 or 5 years now.

I am not discrediting you as I can see some of your stuff holds good value and really good info but I am not no misinformed nor medium educated person when it comes to full circle about boats. I am so overly trained and by most of the OEM's in this that I can pat myself on the back - not bragging but it is what it is. I do way more than just post up here about boats and work on boats for living.

Last, I have no intent against you - where did that come from. I posted really for everyone not to get caught up with the bitog website about info.

Have a question for you. What are you current cruise vs WOT oil temps?

This is just an example of why I ask. I think people forget that most marine applications with a properly specd oil cooler run low oil temps vs many other applications such as circle track, road racing etc. Obviously we have unlimited cooling capabilities in contrast to these other engines, and even if you run a 160-180 oil thermoatat, that's not considered high oil temperature by any stretch..

http://www.drivenracingoil.com/news/...des/viscosity/

Oh trust me, I know you are a talented guy. I've heard about your quality of work and knowledge beyond OSO. Terry is also a very intelligent/honest guy for sure, never said otherwise. Regarding my sources, again I like a certain level of privacy regarding those sources. I don't like to disclose what I do for a living. I actually have two jobs. Boating is just a hobby that I enjoy with my free time.

I have never met terry face to face, however I have used his oil analysis services with several projects in the past. He is very passionate about lubrication technology and his company is one of the best IMO. The other fellow you mentioned from Bobis, was molekule. If I recall he is a tribologist and for a time blended his own motor oil, ATF among other things. Bright guy indeed.

For some reason I had it in my head that mystic sold to Citgo. My mistake. Just like anyone else, I'm not perfect ;)

You somewhat discredit Driven oil before as I use it and their marine recommendation is 20w - 50. I do take all the seminars that Lake Speed Jr teaches about oils and of course Driven oils. He is not slamming Driven down your throat as you would think.

Anyways I re read 2 of your posts but really did not read any other of them. Terry only really has recommended about 6 oil / oil related products over the years. I know who you are talking about with the Bio Based oil company. See I really know whats going on around this field as well. He also use to recommend Redline oil but I did some testing actually a lot testing with him using Redline motor oil 5w-20 back around 2005 thru 2007 years in new Ford Triton apps.

I still have all my reports using & Testing Redline and a whole freakin book of many others. Also Back years ago I did a lot of gear lube and motor oil testing for a race boat that I was prepping / the 500 EFI engine. If you ever talk to Terry ask him about it because I over loaded him with oil samples. Some funny stories back then. I did not know you knew him - we use to met up at the NHRA drag races years ago.

Bingo with the MOLEKULE, I know you know as you did pick out the right guys info to follow. He (Molekule) and Terry did reports and testing results for me with a bunch of marine gear lubes, I sent them back in the early 2000's. Virgin and used samples.

They both gave me info straight across the results about Merc High Performance gear oil "NOT IMPRESSIVE AT ALL" and "HOW MUCH DO PAY FOR THIS OIL" they about fell over when I told them the price.

Also back then everyone thought it was synthetic based gear oil and many dealers proclaimed it was when selling it, even the Merc reps when they talked to you about it used the word synthetic ( way back then) I really think they did not know but thought they did. It is not and still is not a synthetic marine gear lube.

And Yes Molekule did Blend his own oil and it was more than ATF - people bought his products fast that he could not keep up. Also do remember German Castrol Motor oil. It was shipped from Germany to the USA and only Auto Zone sold it. They all went nuts for it, buying it all up across America. Do you remember that one ? They also called it GC and really did not want many others including outsiders to find out about it.

I will get back to you about the other questions. I was just having some fun about the past when a lot people made all of this stuff fun and informative - you just had to know who to follow and get ahold of when needed. Sorry for the off the wall posts.

My oil cruises at 180-190. At wide open throttle, its 200-210 range.

That is a good article you posted there. The only thing I did not see mentioned, was "marine" or "offshore racing". The mentioned NHRA, Nascar, and world of outlaws.

I think a key difference here, is that none of the engines in those applications, are meant to have 25+ hour oil change intervals and 300-1000 hour teardown intervals. I went on their website to see what oil they recommend for ''offshore marine" high performance engines, and this was the only oil listed , well this one, and another 15w50 "break in oil".

http://www.drivenracingoil.com/dro/m...motor-oilhtml/

Interesting info on oil Viscosity for a Supercharged Vett.


Viscosity Grade

Notice: DO NOT use other viscosity grade oils such as SAE 10W-30, 10W-40, or 20W-50.

Z51 Performance Package vehicles utilize the dry sump oil system. This vehicle will come with factory fill 5W-30 dexos1™ oil and an oil fill cap identifying that 5W-30 dexos1™ oil is recommended to top off the engine or for an oil change.
SAE 5W-30 is the best viscosity grade for the vehicle.
For cold temperature operation, where the temperature is colder than −20°F (−29°C), SAE 0W-30 may be used.
For track events or competitive driving, Mobil 1™ 15W-50 engine oil must be used.
Refer to this General Motors website for dexos1™ information about the different licensed brands that are currently available: http://www.gmdexos.com

+1

I don't see how you could go wrong with a Slick 50/ZMax/Lucas Oil Stabilizer blend added to TropArtic 10W40...

Can you imagine where this would go if we talked about what to run in our lawn tractors?! :gfight:

Our Gen IV Viper uses 0-40WT Mobil1.....

I still would like to know, how much better a 10w40 flows, at 75 degree sump temp, than a 15w40. Or a 15w50. I know it will flow better on a cold winter night in northern Minnesota, but what about when its 90* out?

Does anyone have that data? I personally havent seen that testing done

keep in mind that mercury marine reccomend,s their 25w40 oil for most of their engines.

Interesting read....I have pretty much made my mind up on what oil I am going to run on my 496.

Which oil filter should I run? Or is that a whole other can of worms?

First boat I have owned, and have been reading up on oil threads pretty much daily for the past week or so...

I can tell what filter NOT to run, and thats a FRAM.

You can't go wrong with a NAPA gold or Wix equivalent filter.

I have been in these threads before and it seems pointless as everybody has their own thoughts on the matter. With that said the info thrown out in these threads can easily be misleading including the GM/ Dexos1 information. GM hasn't said this oil or that oil is the best. What they have said is 5-30 Dexos1 is the factory fill. Current API AN/Dexos1 specs have a much reduced zinc content. That reduction is fine and will work with these OEM engines. However, in any performance engine being pushed whether or not in a car or a boat, I for one want a better zinc content. A racing oil or a high performance street oil (some European viscosity still has an API rating of SM which has plenty of zinc) is going to be a better choice.