525 EFI refresh lifter issue!!!
 

So I did the top end refresh on my '04 525. Rebuilt heads, Isky springs, scorpion rockers and Johnson lifters. I primed the oil pump while turning the motor over before starting it. It fired right up and sounds great with the exception of a noisy #1 cylinder valve train. So I pulled the valve cover to find that on my intake on #1 I can lift the rocker of the spring and push the pushrod down a 1/8" or so while the valve is shut. This means collapsed lifter correct? I don't think I should be able to push that down. Just making sure Im not missing something, so much for tearing up the Mississippi today:mad:

Let it idle for awhile. I can't explain it but it is not uncommon for a lifter to take a long time to pump up and quiet down.

Did you soak the lifters in oil for a day prior to assembly?

That is VERY important. I just did my top ends as well and had some squeaks too until everything got pumped up with oil. Running at 2000 rpm for short bursts helped.

I didn't soak them, just coated them in assembly lube during installation. I primed the oil pump as well while turning the motor over by hand thinking that should fill everything. I only let it run for a minute or less a couple times, maybe it just needed some more time?

That is most likely your issue. The lifter is not filled with oil and thats why it's collapsing easily and why it's making a noise. They really should be submerged in oil for at least a full day before installing them. Did you adjust the lash on all valves?

Yep, I've heard soaking is a good idea but totally forgot about it, damn. I adjusted all the lash. I'm thinking some more priming is in order and then giving it another run before taking the intake back off. It worked for the other 15 lifters but of course there's always one

I think if you really prime it a lot and then run it on idle for while, periodically boosting RPM to like 2000 for short bursts, you will fill the lifter. I was getting a squeak that was driving me crazy. sounded like it was coming from the back of the engine but when you got closer the sound seemed to move... Took the belt off to rule out accessories... thought it might be an exhaust leak, ruled that out. then thought it might be a vacuum leak... ruled that out.... then ran the engine for short bursts at 2000 RPM to get it hotter than idle and the squeak disappeared. It was most likely a lifter that just wasn't filled enough and once the oil got hotter, it stopped.

Had a fun successful summer with the boat, hopefully you did as well. My lifter noise went away like you said after letting it warm up a little, thanks. Then some lifter noise came back, I thought it was an small exhaust leak so I kind of ignored it, I couldn't hear it unless I opened the hatch and turned the tunes down. While winterizing I pulled my port valve cover to find a lifter that isn't pumped up solid, Im able to push the push rod down a tad (1/8" or less). My question is what oil do you run? I talked to Bob Madera this morning and he said the 25W40 I'm running is much to thick for these Johnson lifters and thats most likely my problem. I was just following the specs from the manual. Me and him also made a connection last spring, I believe he was working with you the same time I was ordering from him and calling him daily for questions, small world. I told him I'd call him back to go over everything again so I can work this out, he gets pretty technical so it may take a call or two lol

Soak them in 5-30 synthetic mobil 1. It is thinner and will fill faster and coats the internals....

25w40 too thick? Thats a mercury spec'd oil grade.

I would remove the lifter assembly, and send it to johnson. Have you called johnson direct?

I been running 20-50 in mine all summer no issues, I did have Johnson increase oiling to my rockers because I wanted to cover my azz in early spring conditions, Randy at Johnson was the guy that helped me out with my questions, very smart guy, I am almost positive he said 20-50 oil is fine even without increased oiling to rockers but I honestly can't remember. I run big clearances across the board so I need the thicker oil....

Hydraulic lifters will lose their prime after they sit for awhile and will collapse if you try to compress them by hand. If you start the motor and run it a little it should pump right back up. If you run the motor and try to compress the lifter by hand again and it collapses you have a bad lifter. I've ran straight 40 even 50 with hydraulic lifters and never had an issue.

Yes, great summer, thanks. Bob is a great guy... extremely knowledgeable and always willing to help. I had a collapsed lifter on one motor about a month or so ago, but that was most likely the result of too much spring pressure from the springs I used when I did the top ends in the spring. I will be changing the springs again this winter to a spring with less seat pressure. I used to use the Merc. Synthetic Blend 25W50 oil but I just started using Valvoline VR-1 Racing Conventional 20W50. Probably only have one or two more runs and then I'm done for the season. So sad..

the johnsons will take a chitload of pressure, ask me how I know?? sure it's a spring pressure issue?

Johnson lifters in my 525 refresh. Have right around 50 hours over 2 seasons, use 25W50 and no issues. Engines run great.

Witnessed the same things happen to morels. Of course the oil viscosity was blamed to be the cause. Same thing happened again, with thinner oil.

I know several local guys running straight 50 oil in their Hi-RPM version of the morels, with no issues at all, although they say 5w40 is the max viscosity. And these arent 500hp engines , talking 1000hp engines in big heavy vee bottoms that get the snot ran out of them every weekend.

Having never used a johnson lifter, are they like a morel, in the aspect of being noisy too little preload? Every set of engines i been around with the morels seem noisy unless they have about a full turn on a 7/16-20 poly lock nut past zero lash.

I run a half turn on my Johnson lifters I don't recall hearing any noise at all actually

Whats the plunger travel distance on a johnson? If i remember right, the morels have .143 of travel.

Here's a very good article on hyd lifters, their components, and how it all works, including bleed down and etc:
http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2012...d-lifters-101/

Note: bottom picture is animated, give it a few to get moving. Provides a good visual.
http://img257.imagevenue.com/loc139/..._122_139lo.jpg
http://performancetrends.com/Definit...Lifter-Lrg.jpg
http://repairguide.autozone.com/znet...52800a7d99.gif
http://jeep.blackonyx.net/forum/lifters/sidebyside.jpg
http://holdenpaedia.oldholden.com/im...licLifters.gif

Even though, you prime oil pump turning engine over... you have to insure the oil is flowing out of each pushrod @ rocker arm....
Since you have a Gen VI block, what were your lifter bore clearances, if they are excessive when priming engine the oil will dump at lifter bore... If you primed after installing intake, you will never see this. I know; for a FACT the Morel HI REV, better be within clearance specs.... this was a complaint of others, not having their lifters allow oil to flow up to rocker arms, even turning engine over by hand. One reason, oil viscosity was changed, I was able to prime all Hi Revs with pre prime to every rocker arm using 20w50 on two 604 cid, due to the simple fact I bushed lifter bores to bring within clearances...
If you fire the engine and you have some noisy lifters shut it down, let it set. Go back; back off lifter and relash. Sometimes mostly all the time, they will prime on the second fire up. If they have air trapped in piston assy, it will make it harder to prime lifter even running.
The Gen VI 525 blocks are most likely going to be on the bigger side, verses going into a Dart, which will be on the smaller side.

I had Johnson lifters put in my 525's last winter. When we fired it up the first time you could hear one ticking, my builder wasn't to happy. He talked to Johnson and they said to drain the 20 50 oil and put the thinnest oil you can get in there and prime it up. Turned it over a few times and sure as chit that lifter pumped right up. Drained that oil and put 20 50 back in and it's been perfect all summer. I'm no engine builder but just passing this info along so it may help someone down the road.

Not sure if that can't remember now

The thing is , he has ran the engine all summer. This is not a new first start up scenerio.

same scenario.tried to prime engine(fresh motor) could not get one bank to prime.had mercury 20/50.was advised to use thinner oil on first start up then went to 15/40.have had no problem all season.went from morel to Johnson lifters.

Am I sure?, not really... but the springs I used have 189# on the seat. Probably a tad too high. And the lifters I used were Hylift Johnson, not Johnson. Not the same product.

Long story short one of my sets of heads came with solid roller springs 210 seat 720 open the johnson lifters did not collapse I have not idea how but only 2 hours run time that told me good lifters lol

What was open ?

This was also my first season on a fresh top end 525. We left the stock lifters though and used stock spec valve springs. Did a LOT of offshore running this season and not a single issue from the engine. I run 20w50 ZR1 and Wix. I don't buy the higher pressure valve spring theory....

I run HI Rev Morels, i225# open/575... straight 50 weight Brad Penn. No issues.

we had our 500's rebuilt over the winter...initially had problems with excessive lifter noise. Morel recommended using a lighter weight oil which we did, it didn't end up solving anything. In our situation the lifters needed more preload. Re-set to a full turn or 1.25 turn can't remember, and the noise went away.

We still get a slight tap at cold starts but it goes away once warm which im told is normal for morel lifters. I can only speculate it's either the lifters pumping up or the pre load isn't quite right at cold and is self adjusting when warm (thermal expansion).

The lifter plunger oil chamber, is going to bleed off oil when engine is sitting with lifter at open on cam lobe, with spring pressure.... Yes the Morel like a tad over 1 turn, if I'm not mistaken all the plungers are long travel.

Morel, did only recommend 20w50 max on the first style of Hi revs... Since you have no issues, that's good news.... My thoughts on running the Hi Rev, used them only on 2 builds..... customer wanted hydraulic, if I'm going to turn some rpms, with bigger lobes, and use over 225# on the seat closed, I prefer; using a low lash solid....

I just got my first 2 sets of Johnson Lifters from Marine Kinetics..they are going into a 525 EFI, with a cam change, Isky, springs Lightweight chromoly retainers, CNC modified throttle body, modified upper intake plenum.... Using the Holley HP EFI, Changed valve seat angles and blending of bowls.

Measured up the Johnson Lifter body, sizing all the same dimensional on body. I noticed; a strong smell of solvent on lifters, not really oil. But could be a type of light- weight oil. I'll have to ask Bob, you can soak lifters all day long... the oil is only going to find its way into the wheel unless you are going to try pumping them by hand. As I stated before, if you are going to prime engine and all lifters the oil has to flow out of the pushrod or rocker arms of all 16. I would also be applying a hi pressure grease or assy lube to both ends of pushrods and oiling rocker arm trunion bearings and tips, this is where the squeaking noise is coming from.

I just measured all the lifters bores on both engine blocks they all measure from .0018-.0021 clearance / out of roundness is about .0002-.0003. Not bad for production blocks, that had over 500hrs on them..... So many over-look lifter to bore clearance, I've seen some GEN 5/6 blocks have over .0025 clearance on lifter, I have had to lifter true and install bushings...

Good info as usual mark !

I figured Morel may want lighter oil than the 50 weight I`m using since the lifters are also going into automotive applications where the starting temps may be significantly lower than my application. Don`t really boat below 70* ambient.

I learned this year lifter bores are one very important measurement, make sure the desired spec is a good number also, I found out the hard way

Interesting

Sure is, you wanna fire that up again?

you act like it was not measured, guess who said my numbers were ok??? yep... leave it be

BTW, I am so dumb seems I been boating every weekend with no issues.... man I can't build engines at all.... did you boat this year? lol

Nothing to fire up. You explained it well . Did my boating in the Indian Ocean this year.