Yeah I slipped that pic in while we were talking detonation, you're the only one that caught it.I thought maybe the power was out and they put the rockers on in the dark. It's ok though, only 2 of them were like that on this engine and there just Jesels after all. Want to see the pushrods?

I think I know what's wrong in this picture but maybe you guys will see something else here as well.

Well atleast we know where the piston material ended up.

If you're referring to the stuff in the bottom left, I think that may have just been some craps that fell in while taking it apart. There was a bunch of loose whitish locktite all over the rocker pedestals and white crap all over the water passage in the intake. The piston material seemed to be much finer. More like powder/ dust. But hell there's an even more obvious thing

push rods are miss matched

Bingo. The silver ones are Smith Bros. Pushrods I paid for. The black ones....aren't

This might be what's in the lifter valley bb. I don't know much loctite is usually found but most of mine looked like this

That sucks man.

Where's this all headed bck

Multiple places. Wanted to show the damage just because people like looking at stuff. Maybe some people will learn something. Trying to learn the exact cause of the failure so it doesn't happen again. I didn't detect any signs of detonation while running, so if it did detonate I have to make sure it doesn't happen again. Lastly to show the quality of the work this guy did so know one else has this happen by going to him. Even if I'm to blame by getting them hot that is no excuse for this type of machine work and piss poor assembly. The pics don't lie. The bearings can be seen, as can the valve geometry and the pushrods. I'll post up the pics of the pistons when I get home. Every single part on these engines were brand new purchased by me. Crower, JE, Smith Bros, AFR, Jesel, Pro Systems, Morel, Dan Olsen. Even though it's not all ruined this guy treated like junk from his garage floor

I feel that the bores being both out of round and tapered started taking the pistons out from day one. I believe me getting them hot (240° in just 1 engine) accelerated the process, but the writing was already on the wall for them.

I might start a pro systems thread next so you can see that junk. It won't be nearly as long though, carbs are much smaller. Sometimes you just need to vent when you're writing checks you shouldn't have to for thousands of dollars

Maybe I missed it, but who ( what shop ) are we to avoid ?

I haven't mentioned it yet because I wanted to verify the extent of any other issues. I'd like some opinions on the pistons when I get the pics up. Very few people will know this guy

IN the end the answer to your question in RUN don't let this person work on it again.

Yeah. And I should have left the boat in Ca with you and sent the engines out for you to rig it. It wouldn't have saved the engines but it would've saved a bunch of other bs I went through with a few other people. But that's a different thread. I had one "professional" criticize the rigging that TNT did while doing work that would barely make it into the tech tips section of hot rod magazine

Sorry just had to mess with you a little LOL

That was another question I had, is there a twin to this damaged engine post #56 answered that,

I'll forgive ya because of the info you dug up for me about the boat. Plus if I ever win the lottery I'll need you to build me another of the damn things

Piston tops were uniformly black with no damage at all.

in my opinion it ran rich/carb flooded gas diluted the oil and killed it, does not talk much fuel in oil make it useless, did it one and could not believe how quick killed one...

Machining the piston bores by hand with scotch brite and no piston clearance mite not be a good idea afterall. Never take your motor to a crack house to get built.

I curios , the pro systems carb was to blame, amongst you other problems?

you cannot just bolt on a carb and call it good...still needs to be dialed in with a wideband period, carb guys can get you close...and thats it usually. Worked on my blow thru a lot, and getting the AFR's right at idle, mid and WOT takes time, also have had issues with carbs flooding coming of plane, several holley based ones, I have always been running a elec fuel pump and now have a fuel pump switch the pump off for a few seconds coming off plane to keep anything from happening..would have saved a motor years ago...and back to these bearing/piston pics..still look like oil failure to me..

I see a couple Pistons that show signs of detonation. But as far as your main issue I'm with EZ on this one. Looks like oil contamination. If this is this case though the oil that came out of the motor should reek of gas. If you put your hands in it it should come right off and the inside of that motor should clean up very easily.

Negative on the gas smell. Oil had just been changed, had maybe an hour or 2 on it. In my opinion Pro Systems carb not at fault, just an overpriced, overrated mediocre carb that wasn't close out of the box and needed to be rebuilt with worthless customer service in my opinion. Boat had afr meters on it, was still being dialed in. Engines less than 10 hrs total run time including dyno. *12 qt pans as well, lots of oil

What specifically do you see that indicates detonation or oil issues so I can look into it? People that have seen the parts first hand aren't suggesting that. They are of the opinion it's due to the bores being both out of round and tapered, and / or too hot. Unfortunately piston to wall clearance wasn't checked, just the measurement of the bores after the pistons were out. Keep in mind this was a 9 to 1 engine running 93 octane making about 650 hp running at 5200-5300. Afr would just get into the 13s between about 3k-3500 then be in the 12s again. In the 11s at idle and slightly above

What's the chances you gas washed the cylinders during tuning? I have seen it before on a carbureted engine killed the cylinders from the choke staying on.
Where any of the second rings stuck?
Or it was lack of clearance piston to wall its in bad shape.
Now I see its carbureted from pictures.

My quick fuels were nearly spot on out of the box according to my widebands

I'm considering the possibility that heat might have been the main cause at the moment. There are obviously issues that the builder is responsible for like the poor rocker geometry and mismatched pushrods, but ultimately the failure may be on me. What if overheating caused the out of round bore issues ? Possible? What if the bores were honed with torque plates and then were measured after disassembly without torque plates ? could that cause the bore issues?

Carbs were not Quick Fuels. I'm not happy with the carbs but I don't believe they are involved here. Except as it might relate to the engine problems, I'm going to leave the carbs out or now.

No rings were stuck. Trying to figure out if the bore clearance issues were caused by heat or whether the heat just contributed to the issue.

What blocks and bore size?

4.5 gen 6

heat..possibly..any oil left in something out of the engine ? have it tested will tell you alot

How long did this run hot for? It looks like a heat seizure to me and that could also explain the detonation you see on a couple of plugs, especially if this thing ran hot for a bit before you noticed it. Do you have any pistons that are not damaged that you could measure to see what skirt clearance was?

Pistons look like a clearance issue to me. It's pretty well understood in the marine industry that you add a little more piston/bore clearance for the hot piston/cold water condition a lot of boats see (without enclosed cooling systems). From other things I see, this engine builder may not have done that, may not have know that. If the cyls were out of round and tapered, then there may have been ring sealing issues allowing oil contamination in the chambers which will almost assuredly lead to detonation. The valve train is a no brainer, but I will say that's why I'm not a fan of the Jesel Sportsman shaft rockers because of this potential. They really offer nothing over a good stud mount system with a girdle. If you want shaft rockers, get something with a one piece intake stand.
And I will NEVER touch the face of a bearing with anything other than a quick wipe with white ScotchBrite but that's just me.

Water temp never moved. Oil temp on only one engine went up to about 240. Maybe a minute or so at that temp

Yeah I know it's water under the bridge, but it would still be nice to know. Engines are at shop and completely torn down. Machining etc already done. Bob at MK is not a builder, he will be supplying the cam if the engine builder is cool with his cam specs because ultimately he's responsible for them. The only parts actually ruined are the pistons. The heads and valves checked out ok despite the fact that they were installed as received. I think I'll go a little more aggressive with the cam this time as the engines are in a different boat than they were originally spec'd for. The carbs were gone through by a guy in Niagara Falls so they should be good to go. I'll dyno with both my current 4150 and a Quick Fuel 4500.

You know bad rigging can kill motors also :-)