Did I miss a group buy for Medical Marijuana ?

Chillin and shootin the schit ?

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/weed.gif

Hah !

Anyone have the supplied eagle H beam tightening instructions with arp2000 they can post up ? Maybe icdedppl can post molnars procedure? Curious about difference in them , if any.

Its got to schroom season somewhere, but hey , all good!

eagle with arp bolts gives a torque spec for arp ultra lube,they also tell you how much bolt stretch they need.i use a stretch gauge with a extreme pressure lube.i can,t see any other brand of rods using arp bolts being different.

I found this. MSN, not Google. LOL.
http://www.z1motorsports.com/upload/...structions.pdf

I would still call them (EAGLE) and have them e-mail you the current instructions, in case they've been updated at some point.

http://33outlaw.zenfolio.com/img/s9/...68661223-4.jpg


http://33outlaw.zenfolio.com/img/s11...76824010-3.jpg


what are you trying to figure out buddy?

Awesome thread with some good knowledge.

I was thinking that also, in the end we are all just low budget do it yourselfer guys that want to boat, Dan and I wanted to kill each other 2 years ago, spend a fun weekend hanging out this past summer and had beers on the dock....

I will have to look in my pile of paperwork....
I ordered the 2000 series bolts with mine..

The molnar rod's recommended stretch value for a ARP 7/16 1.800 long bolt, is .007-.0075. Eagles stretch value for that same ARP2000, 7/16 1.800 long bolt, is .064-.068. K1 Technologies spec for same setup, is .068-.072. Scat, doesnt provide a stretch value, just a torque spec.

Why is that? I really don't know, just trying to learn about this topic.

:)

Molnar's bolts are not the same as the "shelf" ARP bolts like Eagle uses, and probably K1. His bolts are made to his specs by ARP, even thought he calls them a "2000".
Scat torques their bolts to their spec before honing them. They do have a "not to exceed" stretch limit.
Always remember that if you're torquing your bolts and not stretching, you need to cycle the bolts through at least 5 torque cycles. This "mates" the threads and the surface between the under-side of the head of the bolt and the flat part of the rod cap.

The bolts are all ARP2000 but different designs unique to the rod.

Think that has to be a typing error.

Just going off their literature. Eagle, k1, and molnar

I think he's talking about the fact you're missing a zero on a few of those numbers...I wouldn't want to try and stretch a bolt .068". :)

Duh, yea, that would be bad ! Yes typo on my part lol

when you buy a bolt from arp that sais ARP2000,this is the material the bolt is made from.just like a L19 bolt is made from L19 material.a lot of rods made by a lot of company,s have arp put their name or something on the bolt but at the end of the day if it sais ARP2000,that is the material the bolt is made from.scott ,you are correct,i always torque,loosen,and re torque new rods 4 times in the rod vise before installing it in the engine and i never go by a torque spec but always by bolt stretch.also,all rods are torqued before they get final hone when they are made.on a side note,oliver doe,s not list a torque value with their rods,just a stretch amount.i have used scat rods and they did list a stretch value but i have not used any scat rods in over a year so that may have changed.EDIT IN,i just finished a 565 that got new callies ultra rods,callies already torques&retorques the rods before shipping so the end user does not need to.this is stated in the directions they come with.ps,they come with arp2000 and it also sais callies on the bolt.

I guess my question was , lets say one was to torque an eagle rod, for .0075 stretch, like the molnar spec, although eagle says max is .0068. Both being arp 2000 bolts of the same length. Would the extra clamping force required to get that stretch, change the shape of the big end ?

Kind of like if you took an 8740 bolt out, and installed an arp2000 in its place, and never recheck the roundness of the big end ?

Not sure if im making any sense with that question

i will also say,we all have a favorite brand that we like the best and for me it is hands down,OLIVER.some think because it is an i beam and not a H beam it is inferior.some of the best engine builders choose oliver for a reason and at 1400,bucks retail per set it is not because they save money using them,it is because they can take the abuse drag racers throw at them.i have seen nitrous engines melt pistons from detonation but the oliver rod survived.

joe,good question.if you removed the 8740 bolts from dan,s rods and installed arp2000 and torqued to spec the housing bore would no longer be round and would need to be shaved&re honed.i also forgot to mention earlier that arp,s recomended stretch is 75% of total yield,they do this because if you over stretch a rod bolt it is rendered useless.this is why some rod makers show different stretch value,but it is still in arp,s spec if that makes ant sence.guess i should mention,total yield is the point that a rod bolt will brake when over stretched.also,the tighter a bolt is torqued the more clamping load it exerts.

This is why when you use the stretch method, you should keep a log of the bolt lengths. Measure before installation and then when you remove them for a re-build or whatever. If any of the bolts have a free length of more than .001" than before, then they need to be replaced because they have exceeded their elastic limit (yield strength) resulting in deformation of unengaged thread. The bolt is junk. Yield is different than ultimate tensile strength (UTS). UTS is where the bolt will break, yield is where it exceeds it's elastic limit and deforms. I will also say it is far worse to under tighten a critical bolt than properly tighten one.

a bolt is like a spring,if it does not return to it,s initial length after it is stretched it is time to replace it.this is a simple way to describe a bolt.i am not always so good with words so my explination sometimes gets confusing.

Mike, You share some Great Info on here. I have been an engine builder since 1987. I am still always learning new stuff. Others do as well. Thanks foe the honest info. "My 2 cents", I like Oliver and Carillo Rods the best. But most customers won't go the cash for either set. In recent years I have had better luck with Eagle and Manley out of the box. They all need to be sized to the exact build application though. Both Ends.

Ok. Having never assembled an engine. Torque spec I get and is obvious. How do you know/measure of the bolt has been properly stretched. I'm assuming a mic however if as Mike put it, it acts as a spring you'd have to remove the bolt for that measurement and it would no longer be stretched. Pardon my ignorance on this particular subject.

stretch gauge, if you look at the bolt there is little divots at each end for that gauge to attach to.
http://www.googleadservices.com/page...Fseid%3Dsrese1

Got it. Makes sense now. Thanks.

Anytime....

Good explanation of Yield vs. Tensile values.

thanks for the kind words,i can,t agree with your statement on both ends need to be sized.i always check the big end on all new rods and very rarely see one that has improper bore size,but i do agree that the small end will almost always need pin fitting.

This may the case with MOLNAR ??, them bolts are super tight!! ( only took one out to compare)

Cycling the bolts is only important if you're using the torque method. If you're stretching the bolts then it's still a good idea to cycle them a few times, but this is usually done by the time you've done bearing clearances. Friction is a big factor when torquing a bolt, but not so much when stretching.

Have you ever seen new rods change shape after a few torquing cycles ?

Not really, but it can hapapen. The most critical relationship between the bolt and the rod is the spot face where the bolt contacts the cap. This is one of the major differences between a "cheap" rod and a good quality rod. If that spot face isn't flat, smooth and perpendicular to the c/l of the bolt then cycling the bolts will make more of a difference as those two surfaces mate. Of course, out of square being the worst condition and this can cause all sorts of problems depending on how bad it is. You can chase your tail all day on a cheap rod trying to get a big end round and true but if the bolt spot faces aren't right, it's a no-win situation. I've re-spot faced plenty of import rods.

I guess most of the diy guys are just getting lucky because there sure isn't that much talk about tips failures from bolts.hydrolocking and reversion,yes,but cycling rods bolts.no way
And I've seen and done a ton of Builds that don't do that.everything from cheap stockers,eagle's to Oliver and full out drag race aluminum rods(and these guys go to 9600rpm).
The lube on the threads and back side are more critical as well as stretch if that's the process you are going to use.

It was probably overkill for my build (mild 580 HP 489), but I used a rod bolt stretch gauge when I assembled the bottom end on my engine. What you are saying about friction really becomes apparent when you use the stretch gauge. I made several passes on the rods because I was under the impression that you still had to cycle the bolts even with the gauge. I did a couple of passes with a torque wrench, and I had to apply considerably more torque to the bolt to get the proper stretch on the bolt with the first pass or two than I did after they had been run through several times. In fact, I had to go about 20 ft/lbs over the recommended torque for the first couple of passes to get the correct stretch. I was also watching to make sure that the bolt returned to spec after loosening it as well, because the extra torque was making me nervous that I might overstretch the bolt.

I know I'm being a dick but.....................Just to be a technically correct those fastners you're all talking about are called screws not bolts. A screw goes into a threaded hole in the mating part, a bolt is secured with a nut.
and
I'd still be equally concerned with bad threads in the rod causing a issue vs the screw.

This should make it clear�� https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scre...bolt_and_screw

I told my wife I was gonna bolt the $hit out of her tonight with my Richard

Amazing to me how many will "save" a couple hundred $ on a $10'ooo build! WTF! I doit RIGHT and ONCE!

Seems like your advice, is on par with what ARP advises as well.

Three basic elements that contribute to the friction factor:

Most importantly - The fastener assembly lubricant
The condition of the receiving threads
The surface finish of the fastener

Because of these variables, a phenomenon known as "preload scatter" or preload error occurs. This is basically the difference between the amount of preload achieved on the first installation of the fastener and the amount of preload achieved on subsequent torque/loosen/re-torque cycles. It's not uncommon to see "preload scatter" in the range of 4,000-8,000 pounds between the first and tenth pull on a new fastener depending on the lubricant used.
The Lubricant is the Key

The main factor in determining friction in a threaded fastener is the lubricant used, and therefore influences the torque required for a particular installation. One of the most overlooked aspects of choosing a fastener assembly lubricant is…the lubricant's ability to "control" the normal function of friction inherent in all high performance engine fasteners. As discussed earlier in this section, friction is at its highest point when a new fastener is first tightened. This "friction" inhibits the fasteners ability to achieve the required preload on the first several cycles. In fact, ARP's in-house Research and Development department has proven that new fasteners using motor oil and other commonly used lubricants such as Moly and EPL typically require 5-7 cycles before final torquing to level out the initial friction and achieve the required preload. Slicker lubricants may reduce the required torque by as much as 20-30% to achieve the desired preload, but compromise in areas of major importance such as preload repeatability, and may yield the fastener prematurely. Typically, the slicker the lubricant, the greater the "preload scatter" or preload error there will be during installation.

http://arp-bolts.com/p/technical.php