Superchiller water flow testing
 

Did some tinkering around yesterday with Icdedppl. We played with some water flow to and from my superchiller.

Teague says they want 15-20PSI at full boost, with a single -12 inlet, and two -10 outlets.

First thing we did, is test water flow from the garden hose/city water spigot. We measured 5.6 GPM of flow. Then we hooked up a fairly expensive ultilty style water pump, drawing from a water tank. We measured 16.6 GPM of water flow from it.

Then we hooked up the lines to the intercooler, along with a pressure gauge on the core. We had a single 5/8 hose on the inlet, and two 5/8 hose outlets. With the ultility pump that moved 16 GPM, we recorded 11PSI of pressure in the core. We then plugged one of the outlets, and only had a single 5/8 outlet, the pressure then rose to about 17psi.

Then we switched to the city water/garden hose setup, that was flowing 5.6GPM. We hooked that up, with the two 5/8 outlets on the back of the core. Pressure in the core, was barely 2psi.

The purpose of this test? Was to see how much water it actually takes, to get to teagues recommendation of 15-20 PSI at full boost, with the two 5/8 outlets. What I believe we found, is that it takes a CHIT TON of water to get to that. My guess is, at 20psi of psi in the core, you'd probably be moving somewhere in the area of 30 GPM, or 1800 gallons per hour thru the core.

I know theres some smart engineering guys here, that maybe can offer some insight. Lets say, that I want to get to that flow rate. If one was to use a single -12 inlet line from the pickup, I would imagine, that the water pickup, would have to be mounted pretty deep in the water, to make enough psi/velocity, to move that amount of water thru a single -12 hose. Or, can you use a 1.25 style pickup, with 1.25 style hose, to a strainer, and then two -12 lines feeding the core, without having to mount the pickup as deep in the water? Not sure if thats making sense. It seems that the single -12 line, is marginal to feed the core with, unless it has some serious velocity in the line.

i think teague wants one -12 in line because you can only move x amount of water through the core,if you try to move more water through the core it will just raise pressure in front of the core but really wont move more water through it.to simplify what i am saying,pressure is caused by resistance to flow.also the faster the boat is going the more it is trying to force the water through the pickup.the proper angle&depth of the pickup is the key.also,the deeper the pickup the more drag it will create.the best way to feed the pickup is to cut a channel in the bottom of the hull and mount the pickup above the bottom of the hull.

That was kinda what we were trying to determine. How much water can the core itself move. From what we seen, it can move a ton of water. Keith Eickert wants TWO -12 lines going in, and two -12 going out through their intercooler. Blower shop said two -12's going in.

Guess what I am saying, is that the outlet lines, are a no brainer to plumb. You need to get to 15-20psi, with those size outlets. The only variance is , the source feeding the intercooler. From what dan and I saw, feeding it with a setup flowing close to 1,000 gallons per hour, we still were only seeing 11psi in the core. Obviously going with smaller lines of the back of the intercooler, would increase psi and reduce flow, I understand that, and def dont want to do that.

we even checked the flow rate after the water flowed thru the intercooler, and it barely changed if any. Seems that the core/housing, is capable of a lot of water. I was skeptical on installing intercoolers, and kind of want to make sure its plumbed properly, so it can do its job. I plan on installing a psi gauge on the core to dial in the water psi once in the boat.

Did have the engine idling on the hose yesterday for a while. With no water thru the intercooler, the intake temps were about 95 degrees. Turned the water on, and they dropped to around 88-89 degrees at idle. It was a cool day, only about 50 degrees outside

Really need two pressure sensor before and after the cooler to see if the restriction is in the outlet hose or the cooler it self.

You can move water to fast and not give it a chance to cool the alum plates in the cooler.

If you have ever seen a car run hotter with out a t-stat this is why. Cant remember the engineering term for it off the top of my head but there is one.

Along with two pressure sensor, two thermocouples would help in knowing if you need more or less water flow.

I think the reason cars ran hotter with no stat, is because the water cant stay in the radiator long enough to cool, but that is a recirculation system. In that , you are trying to cool the water, which cools the engine. With the intercooler, you're not trying to cool the water, you're trying to cool the air. The water source is infinite.

Whipples big daddy coolers, have HUGE inlets and outlets. The blower shop units, have two 3/4 NPT inlets and outlets, teague now sells 3/4 NPT end caps, that they call their "hi flow" caps, to move more water. I've seen some big power procharger stuff, with custom built intercoolers, using 1.25" hose to feed the intercooler from a pickup. Seems the general consensus is, move as much water as possible thru the core.

I think the reason Teague gives a recommendation of 15-20psi of pressure in the core, along with their plumbing instructions for line size, is that there is a variable, and thats the water source differs on the install. Just because you have a -12 coming in, and two -10's going out, doesn't mean you are moving the amount of water they want you to move for the core to do its job. That setup can have 2psi, or 20psi. If the line size isn't changed, the core isnt changed, and everything is the same, the setup with 20psi on the gauge, simply has to be moving more water thru the core. I believe their spec of 20psi, is to ensure you are moving enough water. To do so, the pickup height, or supply, has to be dialed in.

With two outlets off the core, the psi was 11psi. By simply plugging one of them, the psi jumped to 17psi in the core. That told me the core itself, is not the restriction, the single outlet line, was.

when teague recomends 20 lbs max pressure i believe it is so the core does not get damaged from over pressuring it and bursting the water tubes in the core.even if you put a 5 inch fire hose into the front of the cooler the core will only move x amount of water.what i believe is even if you put 10 -12 lines from 10 different pickups,the core can still only move x amount of water but the pressure would be sky high and the drag from the 9 extra pickups would act like an anchor,teague did not guess on what works but did a lot of testing when he aquired the chillers from pfm.we must keep in mind what the water is doing in the core,whipple has a monster cooler with 2 cores for serious applications.another thing to think about is the water temp.the chiller will be more efficent in 65 deg lake water vs 90 deg river water.the drag race guys run ice water through their coolers.

i have a question,if you feed the sea strainer with one -12 line and run two -12 lines from the strainer to the chiller are you moving twice the water because you have two lines feeding the chiller?

i believe the two -10 lines exiting the core is to not create extra pressure in the core,pressure does not cool the core,water flow cools the core.the resistance to flow is something we can not change in the core but we can control the pressure by using the correct size inlet&outlet hoses.when i plumbed the chillers on both of my boats i followed teauge,s procedure because i am pretty sure he did better real world testing than i could do.

I think you are missing what I am getting at mike. Im not saying teague's plumbing is wrong. He clearly says in the instructions, that at FULL BOOST, he wants to see 15-20psi of pressure, with the plumbing of lines he recommends. Right from his website.

Water pressure in the SuperChiller is required to achieve the heat transfer that creates the performance increase. It is important to maintain 15 to 20 PSI in the intercooler when the blower is making maximum boost. Never exceed 30 PSI or damage to the Superchiller and/or engine may occur
.

So, just because you followed his plumbing instructions, without putting a psi gauge on the core, its really a guess how much water you are actually flowing. I'm not suggesting putting a fire hose to the front of the intercooler, I understand it can only move so much water. but, the pickup style, depth, and overall setup, can have a big impact on how much water is flowing.

For those that have followed teagues instructions, has anyone followed them properly, and checked the actual pressure in the core, to ensure that there is enough volume of water being fed to it? If so, how did you plumb the feed?

I'd say no. But, if you fed the strainer with one 1.25" hose from a pickup, and then two -12 lines to the intercooler, I would think you certainly can move twice the amount of water thru the system.

Keith eickerts intercooler plumbing instructions. They say dual lines going in, and dual going out. Blower shop said same thing for their intercoolers.

http://www.keperf.com/Instructions/755-5005C.pdf

One thing to consider is how much water is being rammed up the pickup at 90 mph when at full boost. Has to be a chit ton, so reaching the 15 to 20 psi shouldn't be to difficult to accomplish.when you guy's dynoing?

This has been debunked with an infinite cooling source.

Told you you'd regret posting this

I think it's a good subect as I don't believe I've seen any other(s) talk about it...other than how to install one or check psi or etc.

My aeroquip catalog, has a chart for line size.

It basically shows that a -12 line, with a velocity of 10FT per second, can flow about 10 gallons per minute. A 1.25" line, with 10ft per second of velocity, can flow around 35 gallons per minute. Over 3 times the amount of water, that a -12 can flow. Now, to get that -12 line, flowing 35 gallons per minute, the line velocity would need to be increased to over 40ft per second, to move the same amount of water. How would we get that? Make the pickup deeper to get a better ramming effect?

If I found that my core, can move say, 30 gallons of water per minute with the two -12 dumps coming off the back, are you better off with a 1.25 water pickup, feeding a strainer, with two -12 lines, feeding the core, and possibly not having to mount the pickup nearly as deep to get the flow needed?


My gut would tell me that a larger feed source, would move more water, with the pickup not nearly as deep. My transom mounted pickups on my fountain, are nearly flush with the bottom, and feed a 1.25 hose, to a strainer, then to sea pump, feed my entire engine and exhaust, and have about 20psi of water pressure at wot. How can those pickups move that much water, and yet, some guys mount a single -12 pickup below the hull bottom, and can't move enough water to even feed an intercooler?

Same here. I have heard so many guys say how they plumb their intercoolers, but never really see anybody stick a psi gauge on the intercooler, let alone IAT temperatures.

I don't wanna look over the side of the boat while underway, and just say "looks like enough water coming thru for me".

You can plumb the system identical to a buddy, and have a vastly different water flow, based on pickup style, pickup depth, hull style, and so on. The psi gauge is imo, what you need to look at to see whats going on.

Can I ax a question.................thanks, are there different types of water pressure gauges, meaning for different applications, blower or N/A

Sea pump (edit in: vs no sea pump) , I believe is the answer to that.

I always thought that at 90mph, the sea pump impeller vanes were not really doing much as far as pumping water?

Good chance.

We can get even deeper into this without trying.

What if 1 engine is spinning 6200rpm at 90mph and another is at 5000rpm at 90. ?

I'm not sure on the pulley ratio to the sea water pump.

Ithink what mike T was getting at is that Teague is saying a an12 is sufficient to get your pressure and the fine tuning to get the desired pressure is up to the end user.
At 90 you are covering 132 fps, btw.

bingo,we have a winner.i can tell you that if you look at the dump on my boat at 100 mph the amount of water coming out is amazing.i don,t need a gauge to tell me i am moving a ton of water,but i understand that some do.i have an adjustable valve on mine that pops open if i get a pesssure spike when reentering the water at 100 plus,this is to keep from damaging the core.

i will bet that if you call the blower shop and ask them about their testing on cooler line sizes all you will hear is cricket,s.same with ke,but bob teague will give you actuial facts from his testing,that is why i plumed mine his way.

I do actually need gauges, im not that smart! . I dont like to guess how much oil pressure i have, how much hot my oil temperature is, or how warm my engine is running, or guess how much fuel psi i have.

I do plan to make sure i follow teagues advice on psi in the core, as well as monitor intake temps while running.

Dan did actually talk to the blower shop. They and several others have done quite a bit of testing with their cores, and actually have some data on the inlet temps and power changes. I have yet to see anything like that published from teague, other than bolt on our product and gain 75-100hp, but never any dyno testing data.

Blower shop tests their cores to over 100psi , and wants water flow. Thats why they, whipple, eickert, and even now teague, offers high flow end caps, with 3/4npt fittings, to replace their 1/2 npt fittings . Why would they bother making these new end caps, if the old -12 to 1/2npt was enough?

Now they offer high flow endcaps. Why?

http://teaguecustommarine.com/em0011...illet-end.html

Per Blower shop:

1. (2) -12 IN and (2) -10 OUT as they want to be sure the core is pressurized and full of water.
2. Run as much water as possible psi is pretty irrelevant as those cores are tested to 120psi.
Things to consider:
Single -12 pickup may clog with debris easier than a larger pickup.

I know I don`t know anything but if I were to plumb an intercooler it would have a minimum -20an pickup or 1 1/4" line. This way the pickups would be as high as possible to prevent any speed loss. Probably overkill but I`d rather err on the side of too big then too small.

Correct they need some pressure to ensure that its full.

Excuse my ignorance - how much fkin water volume do these small cores need ? This water demand is really sounding ludicrous.

Yes, I know, Roots blowes create heat.....but in no way the same amount a 598cid engine at full song pushing a condominium thru the water at 90-100MPH. I say this because the water flow discussed is surpassing what it akes to cool a big azz motor at big rpms. Remember, the same water going thru the motor has already gone thru the oil cooler....so, it's feeding both cooling systems. And now, we have this small core innercooler under a Roots supercharger that needs half the lake or ocean too cool it.

Uuugghhhh. LOL.

Pretty sure a typical mercruiser sea water pump, moves around 40-50 gallons per minute, nearly 3000 gallons per hour. The entire system is plumbed using 1.25 size line to pump, and same thru engine, coolers, etc. The water outlet lines to exhaust, are usually each 1 or 1 1/8.

Thats massive compared to a .610 diameter -12 fitting, that with city water pressure, can barely move 5 gallons of water per minute with no restrction.

I do get what you are saying though, at what point, is more water simply not helping cool the charge. The only person that can answer that, is someone who has adjusted the water psi to the core, and noted changes to the IAT temperatures. I believe eddie young has done this. Other than him, i dont know of anyone. Most just seem to look over the side of the boat and say "looks like enough water to me" .

I personally, think it would be VERY easy, to suck up a piece of chit, into the -12 pre strainer line, that could plug it very easily before it even gets to the strainer. I dont plan on driving 90mph with my head turned around watching the intercooler water flow. I do plan on having a iat gauge and psi gauge on my dash that i can look at though, in between watching water conditions in front of me.

I too would think the IAT gauge is the most important...especially when it comes to seeing how well the intercooler is working and/or doing it's job....or asking too much of it.

So, if IAT is good and water psi is not too high...life is good right ?

Main reason for my above response was seeing icded tak about a big massive thru hull. One of those that made my mind say "how much is too much." We definitely don't want to slow a boat down more than it has to,

You could measure water temp in and out.

Had a good talk with Eddie Young today. According to him, he says every setup he does, before the boat even comes off the trailer, he has pre made lines/fittings that monitor the intercooler water pressure. He goes out, runs the boat, watches the pressure, and adjusts the pickup depth accordingly to get the pressure he wants.

As far as plumbing goes, he said he will typically do a 1" or 1.25 hose, feeding a strainer, then two -12 lines into the intercooler. Except on the whipple intercoolers, he has a manifold that joins has two -12 fittings that attach to the core, fed by a single -16 line from the strainer/pickup.

He also said he factors in horsepower. He said on a typical deal like an 871 on a 540 making 5 lbs of boost, things aren't as critical. Once you start spinning the blower harder, making more boost, the flow can become critical.

His basic thought was, if the intercooler has twin 3/4 inlets, and twin 3/4 outlets, why only feed them with a single -12 line. Obviously, a single -12 off the pickup, splitting into two -12 lines, isn't going to do any good. But, a 1.25" hose, or -16AN off the pickup to a strainer, or manifold like whipple sells, than you can split it to two -12's.

How big is the pick-up tube itself ?

Depends. This style, has round 1.25" tube.

http://eddiemarine.com/shop/plumbing...-on-connection

Then there's this style
http://www.imcomarine.com/cal_store/...er-pickup.html

Or they make them where they neck down with a -12 fitting welded on the end of them, or you can get -16, 1.25 slip on, 1.25" pipe thread, many options

my guess would be to make 224 dollars each on those that believe they need them.

LOL.

My guess would be it takes longer to corrode.

Or will take more psi before it's gaskets will leak ?

Lot of guessing going on.

Ill stick to monitoring the Intake air temps and pressure inside the core when I get it in the water. I dont wanna guess that i have enough water flow, or what my intake temps are, or any of that information. I cant afford to guess , my pockets are shallow, and the boating season is short.

I highly doubt, keith eickert, blower shop, teague, whipple, and pf marine, are putting big water fittings on their intercoolers, because "it just isnt needed" or to make extra money .

Everybody said roots blowers make gobs of heat, and 200 degree temps are the norm. Dan and i decided to mount intake temp gauges and guess what we found, that theory didnt apply to his roots setup. 140 degrees when holding it wot on the water on a 85 degree day. A whopping 25 degrees cooler , than our buddys intercooled 1071 setup on the dyno. Then again, it had minimal water flow thru the intercooler on the dyno. If a 2,000 dollar intercooler, has 60 degree water thru it, and can only take out 25 degrees of air temp properly setup, in my opinion, it was a waste of time.

Everyone said that if he upped the boost, the temps will go up to. Went from 6psi to 8psi, temps stayed the same.

Everyone says you can crank the boost up with an intercooler. You can run more timing with an intercooler, you can do all this stuff with an intercooler, that you couldnt without one. Very few actually have any data to back that up though.

Example. If dans non intercooled setup has 140 deg air temps, and he bolts on an intercooler, and only gets to 125 degree air temps, not so sure id be betting on that 15 degree air temp change, as a green light to crank the boost and timing up . Of course, we could ignore the temp readings, go off what we heard, and more than likely, end up pulling the engines back out before they are even broken in.

couple more things and i will shut up.i am not convinced that the puny core in teague,s chiller,same as ke, core or the blower shop core can move all the water two -12 lines can supply.i am aware that the blower shop sais 100 lbs is ok with their core,but i have had that core in my hands and no way would i trust it to 100 lbs.if i was going to run big boost and really needed to cool that much heat i would pass on all three brands that have been talked about and i would buy a couple of dennis parvy,s coolers or whipple,s biggest cooler but i sure don,t feel the need at the small boost that i run.i guess i,and all the others running low boost with teague,s pluming and no gauges are just plain stupid.do you really think you need a 1.25 dia hose and dual -12 lines to keep that little core cool,hell a 1.25 line cools my engine,oil&trans cooler plus a power steering cooler and the water temp exiting the engine is 110 deg.ok i am done,i gotta go to the outhouse and take a dump.