Dart block oil temp
11-17-2016, 06:42 PM
#31
Platinum Member
O forgot solid would not use a hydraulic lifter.
11-18-2016, 11:03 AM
#32
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Wouldn't run for more than 2yrs on a set of springs maybe around 40 hrs maybe more but realistically about the same on lifters. But it's above 4000 might do 35 miles at 6k on poker run and rest of it in the 5k range. Never broke a spring.
O forgot solid would not use a hydraulic lifter.
O forgot solid would not use a hydraulic lifter.
11-18-2016, 11:13 PM
#33
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tune will not make a 50+ degree change unless it is way out of wack.
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11-19-2016, 07:00 AM
#35
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IJust because water "boils" at 212, doesn't mean that if you fail to get your oil to 212*, its gonna be ridden with water in it. The ONLY time my oil gauge goes over 200 , is on a long wot run down in LOTO where the water is warmer. Most normal days of boating, it never goes above 170-180 on Lake Michigan. I do have mercury racing oil thermostats. I do not run any water stats, so my water temp is cold. I never have foam on my dipstick, valve covers, or any of that. I mean maybe the slightest bit I have seen over the years, but nothing thats hurting anything. Now, if your seeing milkshake on your rocker arms, springs, etc, you have an issue.
You are admitting that you still have foam, correct?
I think theres alot of guys who get milky chit in their engines, and think hotter oil is the cure. There are a thousand places for water to get into an engine. Oil cooler, head bolt in water jacket, slightest leak at headgasket, intake gasket , and so on.
I would agree
While sure, you're oil might withstand 230+ degrees, oil not only lubes parts, it cools them. I personally, would rather drizzle 180 degree oil on my valvesprings, than 230+ oil, same on the pistons. The other factor, is hot oil gets thin. Most are running hydraulic lifters. The lifter is nothing more than a hydraulic piston. It will be more suceptible to bleeding down, with water in it at high rpm, than oil
So why run an oil temp where you may susceptible to the possibility of more water in your oil?
Besides, water, like oil, is also non compressible, your lifter would work as designed with water in it
. Go take an oil filled shock absorber, and try to compress it by hand when its 30 degrees outside. Then, heat it up to 150 degrees after driving down a bumpy road, and repeat. kinda the same thing.
You can't compare shock fluid to engine oil. Quality shock oil has a VI (viscosity index of over 300) motor oil is no where near that.
This is why auto companies used to recommend a thinner engine oil in the winter. Now car oils are 0W XXor 5W XX, but for fuel milage. Most people are not going to revalve their shocks for summer/winter use.
SO, with hot oil temps, your losing valve spring pressure, you're breaking down friction modifiers in the oil,
and possibly losing the effectiveness of the lifters bleed rate.
Friction modifiers do not break down in oil, polymers break down in oil which will lower the viscosity of your oil when they shear.
(which if running a conventional mulitgrade, there usually is quite a bit of friction modifiers in the oil),
On the less expensive conventional oils I might agree. Some modern day syntthetics have no VI improvers
Alot of guys have done dyno testing on hydraulic roller bbc's , and found heavier grade oils usually made more power, which contradicts what you would think.
If that is true, I am not chasing horsepower, (I run a heavier oil for less engine wear) as we all know viscosity is your first line of defense against metal to metal contact). I would surmise better ring seal with a heavier oils contributes to the increase horsepower.
I think it be interesting to do a dyno test with a bbc, varying oil temps, and oil viscosities. We all dyno with fresh oil. What about a 20w50 oil, that has 25 hours of 230+ oil temps, some fuel dilution, and what not in it. It prob has the viscosity rating of a 20 or 30 grade oil when hot at that point in its life.
If you have fuel dilution, you have bigger issues, why run an engine on a dyno with a compromised lubricant.
If your 20w50 sheared to a 20 or 30 weight, find a better oil or change the oil way more often.
If because of fuel dilution your viscosity is now a 20 or 30 weight..fix the fuel problem, run a much heavier oil than a 50 or change it more often.
Look at the open load psi when temperature of the valvespring gets hot. By 200* spring temp, youre down about 25lbs , by 250*, 40 lbs, by 300* its down 60lbs. IMO, anything you can do to keep the springs cool, is a bonus. If your oil is 250*, theres just no way your valvesprings will be cooler than 250*. Valvespring oilers help keep the spring temps from getting out of hand by keeping them flooded with oil. Heat of the spring has a direct effect on the springs rate. We all know what happens when you don't have enough spring pressure to keep the valvetrain stable.
You are admitting that you still have foam, correct?
I think theres alot of guys who get milky chit in their engines, and think hotter oil is the cure. There are a thousand places for water to get into an engine. Oil cooler, head bolt in water jacket, slightest leak at headgasket, intake gasket , and so on.
I would agree
While sure, you're oil might withstand 230+ degrees, oil not only lubes parts, it cools them. I personally, would rather drizzle 180 degree oil on my valvesprings, than 230+ oil, same on the pistons. The other factor, is hot oil gets thin. Most are running hydraulic lifters. The lifter is nothing more than a hydraulic piston. It will be more suceptible to bleeding down, with water in it at high rpm, than oil
So why run an oil temp where you may susceptible to the possibility of more water in your oil?
Besides, water, like oil, is also non compressible, your lifter would work as designed with water in it
. Go take an oil filled shock absorber, and try to compress it by hand when its 30 degrees outside. Then, heat it up to 150 degrees after driving down a bumpy road, and repeat. kinda the same thing.
You can't compare shock fluid to engine oil. Quality shock oil has a VI (viscosity index of over 300) motor oil is no where near that.
This is why auto companies used to recommend a thinner engine oil in the winter. Now car oils are 0W XXor 5W XX, but for fuel milage. Most people are not going to revalve their shocks for summer/winter use.
SO, with hot oil temps, your losing valve spring pressure, you're breaking down friction modifiers in the oil,
and possibly losing the effectiveness of the lifters bleed rate.
Friction modifiers do not break down in oil, polymers break down in oil which will lower the viscosity of your oil when they shear.
(which if running a conventional mulitgrade, there usually is quite a bit of friction modifiers in the oil),
On the less expensive conventional oils I might agree. Some modern day syntthetics have no VI improvers
Alot of guys have done dyno testing on hydraulic roller bbc's , and found heavier grade oils usually made more power, which contradicts what you would think.
If that is true, I am not chasing horsepower, (I run a heavier oil for less engine wear) as we all know viscosity is your first line of defense against metal to metal contact). I would surmise better ring seal with a heavier oils contributes to the increase horsepower.
I think it be interesting to do a dyno test with a bbc, varying oil temps, and oil viscosities. We all dyno with fresh oil. What about a 20w50 oil, that has 25 hours of 230+ oil temps, some fuel dilution, and what not in it. It prob has the viscosity rating of a 20 or 30 grade oil when hot at that point in its life.
If you have fuel dilution, you have bigger issues, why run an engine on a dyno with a compromised lubricant.
If your 20w50 sheared to a 20 or 30 weight, find a better oil or change the oil way more often.
If because of fuel dilution your viscosity is now a 20 or 30 weight..fix the fuel problem, run a much heavier oil than a 50 or change it more often.
Look at the open load psi when temperature of the valvespring gets hot. By 200* spring temp, youre down about 25lbs , by 250*, 40 lbs, by 300* its down 60lbs. IMO, anything you can do to keep the springs cool, is a bonus. If your oil is 250*, theres just no way your valvesprings will be cooler than 250*. Valvespring oilers help keep the spring temps from getting out of hand by keeping them flooded with oil. Heat of the spring has a direct effect on the springs rate. We all know what happens when you don't have enough spring pressure to keep the valvetrain stable.
I would find it hard to believe that an engine builder who is worth his salt would start doing pulls with an oil temp of 140.
There are some folks that claim that some of the additive technology in oil oil is temp sensitive. I know zinc is on of those additives.
Ken
Last edited by minxguy; 11-19-2016 at 10:00 AM.
12-05-2016, 09:45 PM
#37
12-05-2016, 11:11 PM
#38
Registered
iTrader: (3)
Just because water "boils" at 212, doesn't mean that if you fail to get your oil to 212*, its gonna be ridden with water in it. The ONLY time my oil gauge goes over 200 , is on a long wot run down in LOTO where the water is warmer. Most normal days of boating, it never goes above 170-180 on Lake Michigan. I do have mercury racing oil thermostats. I do not run any water stats, so my water temp is cold. I never have foam on my dipstick, valve covers, or any of that. I mean maybe the slightest bit I have seen over the years, but nothing thats hurting anything. Now, if your seeing milkshake on your rocker arms, springs, etc, you have an issue.
You are admitting that you still have foam, correct?
No, I don't get foam in my engines . I did get a very slight amount, years back, before I had oil thermostats, and my oil temp gauge never went above 140
I think theres alot of guys who get milky chit in their engines, and think hotter oil is the cure. There are a thousand places for water to get into an engine. Oil cooler, head bolt in water jacket, slightest leak at headgasket, intake gasket , and so on.
I would agree
While sure, you're oil might withstand 230+ degrees, oil not only lubes parts, it cools them. I personally, would rather drizzle 180 degree oil on my valvesprings, than 230+ oil, same on the pistons. The other factor, is hot oil gets thin. Most are running hydraulic lifters. The lifter is nothing more than a hydraulic piston. It will be more suceptible to bleeding down, with water in it at high rpm, than oil
So why run an oil temp where you may susceptible to the possibility of more water in your oil?
Besides, water, like oil, is also non compressible, your lifter would work as designed with water in it
I don't get water in my oil. Its not about the concept of "compressing" water or oil. What the lifter does see, is leakage. Its like sucking a cold nearly frozen milkshake thru a straw, vs a warm melted milkshake.I can see where on some lifters, the fact the cooler oil, is more resistant to flow, the lifter than suffers from less bleed down. Of course, air bubbles entrapped in the oil, can be compressed. Which has nothing to do with this topic, but also plays a role in a hyd lifter
. Go take an oil filled shock absorber, and try to compress it by hand when its 30 degrees outside. Then, heat it up to 150 degrees after driving down a bumpy road, and repeat. kinda the same thing.
You can't compare shock fluid to engine oil. Quality shock oil has a VI (viscosity index of over 300) motor oil is no where near that.
it was a general statement to give an idea of how a hydraulic cylinder functions
This is why auto companies used to recommend a thinner engine oil in the winter. Now car oils are 0W XXor 5W XX, but for fuel milage. Most people are not going to revalve their shocks for summer/winter use
SO, with hot oil temps, your losing valve spring pressure, you're breaking down friction modifiers in the oil,
and possibly losing the effectiveness of the lifters bleed rate.
Friction modifiers do not break down in oil, polymers break down in oil which will lower the viscosity of your oil when they shear.
(which if running a conventional mulitgrade, there usually is quite a bit of friction modifiers in the oil),
On the less expensive conventional oils I might agree. Some modern day syntthetics have no VI improvers
Alot of guys have done dyno testing on hydraulic roller bbc's , and found heavier grade oils usually made more power, which contradicts what you would think.
If that is true, I am not chasing horsepower, (I run a heavier oil for less engine wear) as we all know viscosity is your first line of defense against metal to metal contact). I would surmise better ring seal with a heavier oils contributes to the increase horsepower.
Then why wouldn't they have seen the difference, when using a SOLID lifter, if it was ring seal?
I think it be interesting to do a dyno test with a bbc, varying oil temps, and oil viscosities. We all dyno with fresh oil. What about a 20w50 oil, that has 25 hours of 230+ oil temps, some fuel dilution, and what not in it. It prob has the viscosity rating of a 20 or 30 grade oil when hot at that point in its life.
If you have fuel dilution, you have bigger issues, why run an engine on a dyno with a compromised lubricant.
If your 20w50 sheared to a 20 or 30 weight, find a better oil or change the oil way more often.
If because of fuel dilution your viscosity is now a 20 or 30 weight..fix the fuel problem, run a much heavier oil than a 50 or change it more often.
You don't think fuel dilution, is a problem when running, say a twin double pumper carbed blower motor, that runs in rough waters, where there is lots of fuel being squirted in every time the throttles are worked back and forth by FOUR accelerator pumps?What do you do , change your oil every hour? Even on an EFI engine, no ring seal is perfect. If it was, we would never have to change the oil. Many will run their engines quite a while on the oil. Long enough, to start seeing a reduction in oil pressure readings. While not huge changes in psi readings, still notable. I would surmise that is due to the fact the engine oil is compromised from a viscosity standpoint?
Look at the open load psi when temperature of the valvespring gets hot. By 200* spring temp, youre down about 25lbs , by 250*, 40 lbs, by 300* its down 60lbs. IMO, anything you can do to keep the springs cool, is a bonus. If your oil is 250*, theres just no way your valvesprings will be cooler than 250*. Valvespring oilers help keep the spring temps from getting out of hand by keeping them flooded with oil. Heat of the spring has a direct effect on the springs rate. We all know what happens when you don't have enough spring pressure to keep the valvetrain stable.
I would find it hard to believe that an engine builder who is worth his salt would start doing pulls with an oil temp of 140.
There are some folks that claim that some of the additive technology in oil oil is temp sensitive. I know zinc is on of those additives.
Ken
If you're running a marine engine , in full marine trim, with a large capacity oil pan, that is running cool water temps on the dyno, with sea water pump feeding the engine for cooling, how do you get the oil temperature to 220* for a dyno pull? Most dyno operators aren't going to leave your engine loaded hard on the brake, for 20 minutes at 4000rpm, so you can get your oil temp to "220" for the dyno pull. Even with a cooling tower, and getting the water temps up nice and hot, it still takes a long time to get the oil up to 160-180*.
I think sometimes, we tend to ignore what works, and whats textbook. I'd like to know, how many engines from Mercury marine, have setups that dictate the oil temperature, is 220+ plus under normal operating conditions? Most "black" mercruiser engines, never even see 180-200 degrees. They did not outfit them with oil thermostats. They ran 140-160 water thermostats.
Almost all heavy duty vehicles, whether its a tow vehicle, taxi cab, police car, dump truck, or something of that nature, are outfitted with external auxilary oil coolers, to control engine oil temperature.
You are admitting that you still have foam, correct?
No, I don't get foam in my engines . I did get a very slight amount, years back, before I had oil thermostats, and my oil temp gauge never went above 140
I think theres alot of guys who get milky chit in their engines, and think hotter oil is the cure. There are a thousand places for water to get into an engine. Oil cooler, head bolt in water jacket, slightest leak at headgasket, intake gasket , and so on.
I would agree
While sure, you're oil might withstand 230+ degrees, oil not only lubes parts, it cools them. I personally, would rather drizzle 180 degree oil on my valvesprings, than 230+ oil, same on the pistons. The other factor, is hot oil gets thin. Most are running hydraulic lifters. The lifter is nothing more than a hydraulic piston. It will be more suceptible to bleeding down, with water in it at high rpm, than oil
So why run an oil temp where you may susceptible to the possibility of more water in your oil?
Besides, water, like oil, is also non compressible, your lifter would work as designed with water in it
I don't get water in my oil. Its not about the concept of "compressing" water or oil. What the lifter does see, is leakage. Its like sucking a cold nearly frozen milkshake thru a straw, vs a warm melted milkshake.I can see where on some lifters, the fact the cooler oil, is more resistant to flow, the lifter than suffers from less bleed down. Of course, air bubbles entrapped in the oil, can be compressed. Which has nothing to do with this topic, but also plays a role in a hyd lifter
. Go take an oil filled shock absorber, and try to compress it by hand when its 30 degrees outside. Then, heat it up to 150 degrees after driving down a bumpy road, and repeat. kinda the same thing.
You can't compare shock fluid to engine oil. Quality shock oil has a VI (viscosity index of over 300) motor oil is no where near that.
it was a general statement to give an idea of how a hydraulic cylinder functions
This is why auto companies used to recommend a thinner engine oil in the winter. Now car oils are 0W XXor 5W XX, but for fuel milage. Most people are not going to revalve their shocks for summer/winter use
SO, with hot oil temps, your losing valve spring pressure, you're breaking down friction modifiers in the oil,
and possibly losing the effectiveness of the lifters bleed rate.
Friction modifiers do not break down in oil, polymers break down in oil which will lower the viscosity of your oil when they shear.
(which if running a conventional mulitgrade, there usually is quite a bit of friction modifiers in the oil),
On the less expensive conventional oils I might agree. Some modern day syntthetics have no VI improvers
Alot of guys have done dyno testing on hydraulic roller bbc's , and found heavier grade oils usually made more power, which contradicts what you would think.
If that is true, I am not chasing horsepower, (I run a heavier oil for less engine wear) as we all know viscosity is your first line of defense against metal to metal contact). I would surmise better ring seal with a heavier oils contributes to the increase horsepower.
Then why wouldn't they have seen the difference, when using a SOLID lifter, if it was ring seal?
I think it be interesting to do a dyno test with a bbc, varying oil temps, and oil viscosities. We all dyno with fresh oil. What about a 20w50 oil, that has 25 hours of 230+ oil temps, some fuel dilution, and what not in it. It prob has the viscosity rating of a 20 or 30 grade oil when hot at that point in its life.
If you have fuel dilution, you have bigger issues, why run an engine on a dyno with a compromised lubricant.
If your 20w50 sheared to a 20 or 30 weight, find a better oil or change the oil way more often.
If because of fuel dilution your viscosity is now a 20 or 30 weight..fix the fuel problem, run a much heavier oil than a 50 or change it more often.
You don't think fuel dilution, is a problem when running, say a twin double pumper carbed blower motor, that runs in rough waters, where there is lots of fuel being squirted in every time the throttles are worked back and forth by FOUR accelerator pumps?What do you do , change your oil every hour? Even on an EFI engine, no ring seal is perfect. If it was, we would never have to change the oil. Many will run their engines quite a while on the oil. Long enough, to start seeing a reduction in oil pressure readings. While not huge changes in psi readings, still notable. I would surmise that is due to the fact the engine oil is compromised from a viscosity standpoint?
Look at the open load psi when temperature of the valvespring gets hot. By 200* spring temp, youre down about 25lbs , by 250*, 40 lbs, by 300* its down 60lbs. IMO, anything you can do to keep the springs cool, is a bonus. If your oil is 250*, theres just no way your valvesprings will be cooler than 250*. Valvespring oilers help keep the spring temps from getting out of hand by keeping them flooded with oil. Heat of the spring has a direct effect on the springs rate. We all know what happens when you don't have enough spring pressure to keep the valvetrain stable.
I would find it hard to believe that an engine builder who is worth his salt would start doing pulls with an oil temp of 140.
There are some folks that claim that some of the additive technology in oil oil is temp sensitive. I know zinc is on of those additives.
Ken
If you're running a marine engine , in full marine trim, with a large capacity oil pan, that is running cool water temps on the dyno, with sea water pump feeding the engine for cooling, how do you get the oil temperature to 220* for a dyno pull? Most dyno operators aren't going to leave your engine loaded hard on the brake, for 20 minutes at 4000rpm, so you can get your oil temp to "220" for the dyno pull. Even with a cooling tower, and getting the water temps up nice and hot, it still takes a long time to get the oil up to 160-180*.
I think sometimes, we tend to ignore what works, and whats textbook. I'd like to know, how many engines from Mercury marine, have setups that dictate the oil temperature, is 220+ plus under normal operating conditions? Most "black" mercruiser engines, never even see 180-200 degrees. They did not outfit them with oil thermostats. They ran 140-160 water thermostats.
Almost all heavy duty vehicles, whether its a tow vehicle, taxi cab, police car, dump truck, or something of that nature, are outfitted with external auxilary oil coolers, to control engine oil temperature.
12-06-2016, 04:47 AM
#40
Registered
iTrader: (2)
I'm adding water pick-up and oil coolers (8qt capacity) for big diesels over the winter. My target oil temps are 100* running and 200* at idle. This is a proven combination that has been passed down by one of the industries greatest and has over 30 years of testing on the combination.
