604ci build. Ready run msd or ignition box?
03-17-2017, 03:40 PM
#51
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Mild Thunder - Good point on the MBT tuning - it's definitely better to tune that way if you have the time and ability to dial it in. It's a nice feature for the Daytona system to have it. There are definitely boating events that cause non-linear behavior. I'm just saying that the average boater is not offshore like us and may not deal with situations requiring MAP tuning.
Conversion cost to EFI:
I have a spreadsheet that had it figured at around 4k per engine to go Holley MPFI with hall effect crank triggers, knock sensors, oil and fuel pressure senders, WBO2, ECM, TB, rails, injectors, harnesses, new fuel system and plumbing including fuel returns to tank. You can give or take a $1000 depending on how many features you do or don't add and who your buying from (that can add $1000's).
That's keeping my intakes and machining them myself (which I wanted to do since I didn't like the off the shelf ones - they don't do a good job of angling injectors toward the intake ports). I feel I upgraded on some things over the normal (Weldon pumps, billet crank trigger kits, billet fuel pressure regulator, hardin high flow fuel water separator and aeromotive post filter, etc...). I also bought most of the holley stuff as a "universal retrofit kit" so that saved ~$600.
Converting from carb's is far more painful than starting from scratch. If you already bought good carbs, a fuel pressure regulator, a quality/long lasting fuel pump, knock controller, WBo2, etc... those items pretty much have to be sold off when switching to EFI because the same ECM controls most of it.
03-17-2017, 07:01 PM
#52
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$4k per engine, based on single carb and no blower I`d imagine? Kvoght could tell us for double carb and blower application but he don`t like to share his 'secrets'
I`d guess double that and then some. I got $2600 for Daytona and some carbs. I`ll stick with that .
I`d guess double that and then some. I got $2600 for Daytona and some carbs. I`ll stick with that .
03-18-2017, 07:07 AM
#53
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Yes - single carb. I ran the Holley 1000 CFM TB for the first 3 years. I'm trying a ProComp (don't laugh) 2200 CFM throttle body this year. I knew there was some likelihood that my TB was too small for my 540 (I came from a 950HP carb).
They are $220-240 depending on where you buy them - looks like a direct knockoff of the accufab and Holley 2000CFM TB's. I need to add TPS and IAC to them which are off-the-shelf OEM for around $100. They are billet and the throttle linkages are very well built and tight, the throttle blades seal very well. Time will tell if they work as well as the holley (but the holley is $1000). The thing that made me go for it is a multiport injection TB is really simple. If it's billet and well machined with a progressive and tight throttle linkage with good bushings and the blades seal well, why not give them a shot? If that works, I could have done this setup for $300 less per engine. If you run dual throttle bodies on each, it's a game changer.
Last edited by Tibbstoy2; 03-18-2017 at 07:11 AM.
03-18-2017, 03:27 PM
#55
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The holley setup has several and recently change software to v4 which gives you the ability to create custom tables (2D and 3D) to control anything you want including inputs and outputs.
The most common safeguards are the caution and warning parameters you can set for water temp, manifold air temp, knock, throttle position, battery, fuel pressure, oil pressure, and rpm. You can output these to a warning light, switch, or to a relay to do things like shut down the fuel pumps (for instance if oil pressure is lost or below a safe value you determine). You can also configure any of these to pull timing (any amount you want).
There is now a limp mode possibility (to a desired rpm) to any of the inputs/outputs or caution/warning parameters set.
I use long bright LED light strips on my dash to light up like a christmas tree if I have a caution and then if something really bad is happening, it will limp or kill depending on what sensor shows the issue and how bad it is. There are also math channels and and/or logic to trigger switches in the output harness to do whatever you want in the software - or send an output trigger.
One change I will be making this year is something KVogt did: add a custom table to pull back timing based on MAP and rpm if the manifold air temp goes higher than usual. In his case, if something is going on with the blower you pull timing (any quantity you want in the table of RPM vs. MAP). In my case, I still like having the ability to pull timing slightly for 90 degree days when I don't want to take chances with detonation.
Another easy one is if the bilge pump kicks on for a predetermined number of seconds, you can get an earlier warning if a water line were to rupture.
The boost control menu's have several configurable and customizable features as well, I just don't know as much about that since I don't run a supercharger.
What I've found is that because of the custom tables, you can control anything you want and create any reaction you want - immediately or progressively. Oddly, most people I know that run this system, don't employ most of these safeguards (I do).
The most common safeguards are the caution and warning parameters you can set for water temp, manifold air temp, knock, throttle position, battery, fuel pressure, oil pressure, and rpm. You can output these to a warning light, switch, or to a relay to do things like shut down the fuel pumps (for instance if oil pressure is lost or below a safe value you determine). You can also configure any of these to pull timing (any amount you want).
There is now a limp mode possibility (to a desired rpm) to any of the inputs/outputs or caution/warning parameters set.
I use long bright LED light strips on my dash to light up like a christmas tree if I have a caution and then if something really bad is happening, it will limp or kill depending on what sensor shows the issue and how bad it is. There are also math channels and and/or logic to trigger switches in the output harness to do whatever you want in the software - or send an output trigger.
One change I will be making this year is something KVogt did: add a custom table to pull back timing based on MAP and rpm if the manifold air temp goes higher than usual. In his case, if something is going on with the blower you pull timing (any quantity you want in the table of RPM vs. MAP). In my case, I still like having the ability to pull timing slightly for 90 degree days when I don't want to take chances with detonation.
Another easy one is if the bilge pump kicks on for a predetermined number of seconds, you can get an earlier warning if a water line were to rupture.
The boost control menu's have several configurable and customizable features as well, I just don't know as much about that since I don't run a supercharger.
What I've found is that because of the custom tables, you can control anything you want and create any reaction you want - immediately or progressively. Oddly, most people I know that run this system, don't employ most of these safeguards (I do).
03-18-2017, 05:41 PM
#56
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That is pretty sweet.
I believe the OEM's also pull timing if IAT increases to a certain point. I guess my question is, how do you know how much to pull, and how do you know what timing is the proper timing to even have for a base map? I mean, sure on the dyno you can do this stuff. Watching individual cyl air fuel ratios (with an 8 pack wideband), individual cylinder EGT temperatures, and watching changes in flywheel power output, doing part throttle steady state pulls at various map/throttle position settings, and so on.
I would think that if you are trying to tune all this in the boat, with an average reading from 4 cylinders off the bank, maybe a single egt probe in 1 manifold, and pulling spark plugs to get the tune, that man, you could spend tons of time, fuel money, and still really not have that good of a grasp of what is going on with all 8 cylinders.
Being its BBC applications, which do not have symetrical ports, intake runners that have various lengths, I'd think you can see some cylinders varying quite a bit on fuel mixture and timing requirement. Of course with a carb /distributor setup, you aren't able to do individual cylinder timing, or fine tune fuel trims like you could with a port efi. I know a few who have the eight o2 sensor setups on their dyno, and according to them, the cyl to cyl air fuel ratios, can vary a ton. Like lets say, you have a bank that looks like this
#1=11.8
#3=12.5
#5=12.2
#7=12.7
Would make me think, that you would want to pull or add fuel accordingly, to get things balanced out. The Holley Dominator system is capable of that ?
I believe the OEM's also pull timing if IAT increases to a certain point. I guess my question is, how do you know how much to pull, and how do you know what timing is the proper timing to even have for a base map? I mean, sure on the dyno you can do this stuff. Watching individual cyl air fuel ratios (with an 8 pack wideband), individual cylinder EGT temperatures, and watching changes in flywheel power output, doing part throttle steady state pulls at various map/throttle position settings, and so on.
I would think that if you are trying to tune all this in the boat, with an average reading from 4 cylinders off the bank, maybe a single egt probe in 1 manifold, and pulling spark plugs to get the tune, that man, you could spend tons of time, fuel money, and still really not have that good of a grasp of what is going on with all 8 cylinders.
Being its BBC applications, which do not have symetrical ports, intake runners that have various lengths, I'd think you can see some cylinders varying quite a bit on fuel mixture and timing requirement. Of course with a carb /distributor setup, you aren't able to do individual cylinder timing, or fine tune fuel trims like you could with a port efi. I know a few who have the eight o2 sensor setups on their dyno, and according to them, the cyl to cyl air fuel ratios, can vary a ton. Like lets say, you have a bank that looks like this
#1=11.8
#3=12.5
#5=12.2
#7=12.7
Would make me think, that you would want to pull or add fuel accordingly, to get things balanced out. The Holley Dominator system is capable of that ?
03-18-2017, 06:54 PM
#57
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You are asking some really deep but practical questions. I'm not a professional, but I know my way around the software enough that I can help answer some of your questions.
1. The software is free to download and play with... some of the I/O settings and programming takes some getting used to. But a lot of the main stuff is easy. I am surprised at how flexible the software is for non-Holley components and sensors.
2. I think on new boosted builds, I don't think I'd feel comfortable making timing decisions on timing without EGT's and/or individual O2 per cylinders - to your point. I had dyno time with one of my engines. That was 2005 and I've made some changes, but on N/A builds with aluminum heads like mine, it's hard to really screw things up.
3. The way the datalogging works in the holley software is incredible. You can see resolution of each tooth of a 60-2 trigger wheel and count gaps or watch any input/sensor/etc... over the course of a boat ride. If you use this type of log, when you open it and trace any event in time on the datalog, if you also have a window open in the holley software, it has a small circle that floats in each table that shows you exactly where on the map the system was at during that point in time. The software acts like the engine is running with the datalog up. It means even if you couldn't catch everything with the laptop open when someone is driving, you can download the datalogs after a pass on the water and figure out if you're what MAT was running under a certain amount of boost and make timing adjustments accordingly, then do another pass and compare. You can write datalogs to a file or have it live on the screen with all of your digital gages up (full configurable) to make live adjustments to fuel/timing/etc... while the engine is still running. (Some settings are disabled to protect the engine from user stupidity).
4. Yes - cylinder fuel and timing trim and capabilities of the Dominator AND the HP EFI system. I've found that almost the only limiting factor to the HP is if you need a bunch of extra inputs/outputs (like 8 EGT's). Most boaters will not need the dominator.
This is the basic fuel and timing trim page:
Holley v4 has added table capability to the these as well for more advanced use, notice all of the available axis inputs (this can be done on timing trim too)
5. The software can handle and monitor 8 EGT's. You'll want the dominator version to handle these extra inputs. Personally, I wouldn't want to weld in EGT's or O2 bungs into a set of headers for the risk of them failing in the areas of the welds or possibly leaking. I think the beauty of the Holley setup is ensuring you keep the same results you had on the dyno on the water. So, running extensive datalogs with the software on the dyno with things like 8x O2 sensors or EGT's would give you all of the other input parameters (like MAT vs. RPM vs. timing results) to make sure you're running on the water the way you were on the dyno.
I'm not a holley salesman, or a pro engine builder, but as an engineer, this software gives me as much room to play and tinker as I could ever want. The fact that they've maintained the same ECM for 4 years without and keep upgrading the software has given me 10x the capability and compatibility as when I bought it in 2013... I was happy then, but now it's blowing my mind.
1. The software is free to download and play with... some of the I/O settings and programming takes some getting used to. But a lot of the main stuff is easy. I am surprised at how flexible the software is for non-Holley components and sensors.
2. I think on new boosted builds, I don't think I'd feel comfortable making timing decisions on timing without EGT's and/or individual O2 per cylinders - to your point. I had dyno time with one of my engines. That was 2005 and I've made some changes, but on N/A builds with aluminum heads like mine, it's hard to really screw things up.
3. The way the datalogging works in the holley software is incredible. You can see resolution of each tooth of a 60-2 trigger wheel and count gaps or watch any input/sensor/etc... over the course of a boat ride. If you use this type of log, when you open it and trace any event in time on the datalog, if you also have a window open in the holley software, it has a small circle that floats in each table that shows you exactly where on the map the system was at during that point in time. The software acts like the engine is running with the datalog up. It means even if you couldn't catch everything with the laptop open when someone is driving, you can download the datalogs after a pass on the water and figure out if you're what MAT was running under a certain amount of boost and make timing adjustments accordingly, then do another pass and compare. You can write datalogs to a file or have it live on the screen with all of your digital gages up (full configurable) to make live adjustments to fuel/timing/etc... while the engine is still running. (Some settings are disabled to protect the engine from user stupidity).
4. Yes - cylinder fuel and timing trim and capabilities of the Dominator AND the HP EFI system. I've found that almost the only limiting factor to the HP is if you need a bunch of extra inputs/outputs (like 8 EGT's). Most boaters will not need the dominator.
This is the basic fuel and timing trim page:
Holley v4 has added table capability to the these as well for more advanced use, notice all of the available axis inputs (this can be done on timing trim too)
5. The software can handle and monitor 8 EGT's. You'll want the dominator version to handle these extra inputs. Personally, I wouldn't want to weld in EGT's or O2 bungs into a set of headers for the risk of them failing in the areas of the welds or possibly leaking. I think the beauty of the Holley setup is ensuring you keep the same results you had on the dyno on the water. So, running extensive datalogs with the software on the dyno with things like 8x O2 sensors or EGT's would give you all of the other input parameters (like MAT vs. RPM vs. timing results) to make sure you're running on the water the way you were on the dyno.
I'm not a holley salesman, or a pro engine builder, but as an engineer, this software gives me as much room to play and tinker as I could ever want. The fact that they've maintained the same ECM for 4 years without and keep upgrading the software has given me 10x the capability and compatibility as when I bought it in 2013... I was happy then, but now it's blowing my mind.
03-18-2017, 08:06 PM
#58
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Great info Tibbs, thanks for sharing it. Technology is awesome. Stuff keeps getting better and better.
The EFI thing is new to me. I mean, I get the fundamentals, but as far as executing them, and working with the system, and what the systems can and cant do, is greek to me.
Heck, it took me a while just to figure out the custom 3d timing maps, data logging, and working with the software on the daytona ignitons. I mean, I knew what I wanted , but actually learning how to do it with a computer, instead of a wrench, was new to me.
Its fun stuff. Im sure not for everyone, but if your an engine geek, very cool. If you just wanna go to the beach, get slam some booze, and turn the keys, this stuff is probably boring, or irrelevant .
The EFI thing is new to me. I mean, I get the fundamentals, but as far as executing them, and working with the system, and what the systems can and cant do, is greek to me.
Heck, it took me a while just to figure out the custom 3d timing maps, data logging, and working with the software on the daytona ignitons. I mean, I knew what I wanted , but actually learning how to do it with a computer, instead of a wrench, was new to me.
Its fun stuff. Im sure not for everyone, but if your an engine geek, very cool. If you just wanna go to the beach, get slam some booze, and turn the keys, this stuff is probably boring, or irrelevant .
03-18-2017, 11:04 PM
#59
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That is pretty sweet.
I believe the OEM's also pull timing if IAT increases to a certain point. I guess my question is, how do you know how much to pull, and how do you know what timing is the proper timing to even have for a base map? I mean, sure on the dyno you can do this stuff. Watching individual cyl air fuel ratios (with an 8 pack wideband), individual cylinder EGT temperatures, and watching changes in flywheel power output, doing part throttle steady state pulls at various map/throttle position settings, and so on.
I would think that if you are trying to tune all this in the boat, with an average reading from 4 cylinders off the bank, maybe a single egt probe in 1 manifold, and pulling spark plugs to get the tune, that man, you could spend tons of time, fuel money, and still really not have that good of a grasp of what is going on with all 8 cylinders.
Being its BBC applications, which do not have symetrical ports, intake runners that have various lengths, I'd think you can see some cylinders varying quite a bit on fuel mixture and timing requirement. Of course with a carb /distributor setup, you aren't able to do individual cylinder timing, or fine tune fuel trims like you could with a port efi. I know a few who have the eight o2 sensor setups on their dyno, and according to them, the cyl to cyl air fuel ratios, can vary a ton. Like lets say, you have a bank that looks like this
#1=11.8
#3=12.5
#5=12.2
#7=12.7
Would make me think, that you would want to pull or add fuel accordingly, to get things balanced out. The Holley Dominator system is capable of that ?
I believe the OEM's also pull timing if IAT increases to a certain point. I guess my question is, how do you know how much to pull, and how do you know what timing is the proper timing to even have for a base map? I mean, sure on the dyno you can do this stuff. Watching individual cyl air fuel ratios (with an 8 pack wideband), individual cylinder EGT temperatures, and watching changes in flywheel power output, doing part throttle steady state pulls at various map/throttle position settings, and so on.
I would think that if you are trying to tune all this in the boat, with an average reading from 4 cylinders off the bank, maybe a single egt probe in 1 manifold, and pulling spark plugs to get the tune, that man, you could spend tons of time, fuel money, and still really not have that good of a grasp of what is going on with all 8 cylinders.
Being its BBC applications, which do not have symetrical ports, intake runners that have various lengths, I'd think you can see some cylinders varying quite a bit on fuel mixture and timing requirement. Of course with a carb /distributor setup, you aren't able to do individual cylinder timing, or fine tune fuel trims like you could with a port efi. I know a few who have the eight o2 sensor setups on their dyno, and according to them, the cyl to cyl air fuel ratios, can vary a ton. Like lets say, you have a bank that looks like this
#1=11.8
#3=12.5
#5=12.2
#7=12.7
Would make me think, that you would want to pull or add fuel accordingly, to get things balanced out. The Holley Dominator system is capable of that ?
As far as oem boats. The iat table doesnt pull any timing until about 140 if i remember right and thrn it doesnt pull a whole lot. I will fire up laptop when i get home from work in morning and post some real numbers, smitty
Last edited by articfriends; 03-18-2017 at 11:06 PM.
03-19-2017, 11:27 AM
#60
.....
I finally broke down a few years ago and went Holley HP multiport EFI. I ran MSD with that system for the first year (with the Holley controlling timing), then eliminated the MSD and went coil packs 2 years ago... right away you'll have solid commanded Air fuel ratio, way cleaner idle, but I was surprised at how much better it idled with coil packs vs. MSD. I also added knock protection and safeguards that help keep my eyes on the water. The amount of control and flexibility you get with that system is endless, pretty much if you can think of it, you can do it (especially with the v4 updates).
I finally broke down a few years ago and went Holley HP multiport EFI. I ran MSD with that system for the first year (with the Holley controlling timing), then eliminated the MSD and went coil packs 2 years ago... right away you'll have solid commanded Air fuel ratio, way cleaner idle, but I was surprised at how much better it idled with coil packs vs. MSD. I also added knock protection and safeguards that help keep my eyes on the water. The amount of control and flexibility you get with that system is endless, pretty much if you can think of it, you can do it (especially with the v4 updates).
I'm curious to know more about your full ignition setup. I've been running the Holley HP for the last 4 or 5 seasons and have the MSD small cap HEI (8366) with 6M box using the Holley to control timing. Last year I ran into issues with the ignition module failing. I got it worked out, but it left me wondering when it will fail again. I've been considering going with Holley's new(er) dual sync distributor which I read will support the coil packs, plus I would be able to run full sequential vs. the batch fire I am now. Just looking for some options and the most reliable way to go.
