EFI Idle tuning and reversion
09-07-2017, 05:53 AM
#11
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Take a look.
Innovate Motorsports 3729 Heat-Sink Bung Extender HBX-1
by Innovate Motorsports
Link: http://a.co/dtaAnSI
Last edited by SB; 09-07-2017 at 06:01 AM.
09-07-2017, 07:41 AM
#12
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I run closed loop with a NTK sensor on each bank, but I don't enter closed loop until 1800 rpm. At idle with the mufflers open, I revert outside air and the computers would try and compensate by going too rich.
Also if you have a plug out you will lean on that bank due to the unburned mixture pumped into the exhaust stream and the computer will try to compensate again.
09-07-2017, 08:39 AM
#13
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Sb is correct it raises it up and protects it. The hole has an indexing mark on it so you locate the hole pointing forward and the exit is on the bottom. Some people have argued that it changes the reading. I have done back to back dyno pulls and only very slightly slows the reading down. The ntk sensor is a far superior sensor but find myself still using the Bosch and just replacing them alittle more often just to be on the safe side. Like stated earlier the sensor at the 12 o'clock position is critical. No matter how mild the cam is the sensor won't live if it's down towards the bottom of the pipe.
09-07-2017, 08:41 AM
#14
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I run mine at the 12 o clock position and haven't had any problems with moisture. I run the NTK sensors and I think they hold up better than the Bosch ones.
I run closed loop with a NTK sensor on each bank, but I don't enter closed loop until 1800 rpm. At idle with the mufflers open, I revert outside air and the computers would try and compensate by going too rich.
Also if you have a plug out you will lean on that bank due to the unburned mixture pumped into the exhaust stream and the computer will try to compensate again.
I run closed loop with a NTK sensor on each bank, but I don't enter closed loop until 1800 rpm. At idle with the mufflers open, I revert outside air and the computers would try and compensate by going too rich.
Also if you have a plug out you will lean on that bank due to the unburned mixture pumped into the exhaust stream and the computer will try to compensate again.
09-07-2017, 11:08 AM
#15
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Sb is correct it raises it up and protects it. The hole has an indexing mark on it so you locate the hole pointing forward and the exit is on the bottom. Some people have argued that it changes the reading. I have done back to back dyno pulls and only very slightly slows the reading down. The ntk sensor is a far superior sensor but find myself still using the Bosch and just replacing them alittle more often just to be on the safe side. Like stated earlier the sensor at the 12 o'clock position is critical. No matter how mild the cam is the sensor won't live if it's down towards the bottom of the pipe.
If it follows the primary 02 sensor's response, it will throw the codes.Sorry for diversion, but it has a little something to do with the thread.
09-07-2017, 01:45 PM
#16
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Yea have done that before on the anti fouler lol. If you call innovative they will tell you the magic is in the hole placement, size, chamfer etc. When I say slow down it really acts like the smoothing factor on a dyno. Makes the sensor act less erratic. You would see more delay in the sensor/afr response moving it from the primary to
the collector in a car type header.
the collector in a car type header.
09-08-2017, 12:35 AM
#17
I use the Innovate heat sink SB posted. I will echo virtually every comment that Indysupra has stated regarding using this product. AFRs are unchanged (I too did back to back).
For a marine application this is basically used to prevent water from coming in contact with the O2 sensor. Heat is not the issue.
For a marine application this is basically used to prevent water from coming in contact with the O2 sensor. Heat is not the issue.
09-08-2017, 09:55 PM
#18
I too use the Innovative extender. Can't remember the last time I replaced an O2 sensor. Same for me with back-to-back testing. It's a nice design - the chamfer creates a low pressure point at the bottom hole and helps draw the exhaust gasses through the front hole and into the chamber where the O2 resides.
09-08-2017, 10:57 PM
#19
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Wow, Lots of good info here....
I am just back in town from travel with work.
I did order the "heat Sink" adapter from innovative but unfortunately won't have it this weekend! My bung orientation is what I would consider 9:00 (port side protruding horizontally to port). After reading this. I am wondering if I can simply rotate my tail pipe to put the sensor at 12:00 and make up a longer jumper hose to accommodate the connection between the header outlet and the tail-pipe inlet? Either way, for my current situation, getting the O2 sensor a bit out of the direct line of exhaust flow should help longevity. The last one I had literally died after about 20 minutes of idling out the channel I need to navigate before getting to running space.
Tinkerer, I discussed the cam timing with the engine builder and he was quite sure it was standard firing order but the process you described to verify makes sense to me and I will confirm using that.
Kvogt - The fouled plug issue is for real in my case. I have replaced my plugs and have yet another set. The fresh set definitely improved things but the idle is still very rough and if I pull the O2 sensor at Idle, there is lots of water spritzing out of the bung so I know it is getting very wet.
All- I agree on keeping closed loop off below higher RPM's but while this will help reduce erroneous fuelling adjustments, I don't believe if keeps the sensor from getting fouled by water/reversion?? Essentially, the sensor is powered (heater on) and providing signal output, just not feeding back to the ECU to engage the fueling adjustment algorithms, no?
I am going to try different Ignition settings in the software tomorrow and do some more timing light tests. Are any of you guys using Coil-Near-Plug (CNP) set-ups and the Holley Coil driver packs? There are choices in the pull-down menus for Ignition types. My current ICF includes the Holley 60-2 DIS but it seems to me the "custom" option should be selected as my Crank Sensor is set up 11 Teeth past TDC for Cyl #1. This was established through the mounting position and the instructions which recommended that the Sensor be located some number of teeth ATDC #1. This value can't be entered unless you are in the Custom configuration. I am also suspicious about some of the settings in the custom Ignition fields such as Dwell time. I have found some info about base settings for the various coil configurations. Any experience on Coil types/configurations?
I feel like maybe I should have purchased the Holley waste-fire smart coils but my prior EFI set up had individual 2-wire "Dumb Coils". Holley offers the Driver packs for this configuration but there is not a lot in the way of the details for set-up information.
I am also running fully sequential with cam Sync trigger. I fitted the engine with an EFI Connection magnetic cam phase sensor distributor housing (digital falling) in accordance with the Holley installation instructions.
Lastly, I am using the Holley Magnetic Crank trigger. Seems there are some software setting considerations for this as well.
Anyway, back into the bilge tomorrow to try some things. I will verify cam timing, and see if setting up Custom Ignition parameters (Dwell timing etc) help to improve Idle/reversion. I am also going to see how the timing light tracks expected firing events at cranking RPM to see if the different Ignition configuration settings have an effect.
Thanks to everyone for your contributions to this thread!
I will post with progress (hopefully).
GT2750
I am just back in town from travel with work.
I did order the "heat Sink" adapter from innovative but unfortunately won't have it this weekend! My bung orientation is what I would consider 9:00 (port side protruding horizontally to port). After reading this. I am wondering if I can simply rotate my tail pipe to put the sensor at 12:00 and make up a longer jumper hose to accommodate the connection between the header outlet and the tail-pipe inlet? Either way, for my current situation, getting the O2 sensor a bit out of the direct line of exhaust flow should help longevity. The last one I had literally died after about 20 minutes of idling out the channel I need to navigate before getting to running space.
Tinkerer, I discussed the cam timing with the engine builder and he was quite sure it was standard firing order but the process you described to verify makes sense to me and I will confirm using that.
Kvogt - The fouled plug issue is for real in my case. I have replaced my plugs and have yet another set. The fresh set definitely improved things but the idle is still very rough and if I pull the O2 sensor at Idle, there is lots of water spritzing out of the bung so I know it is getting very wet.
All- I agree on keeping closed loop off below higher RPM's but while this will help reduce erroneous fuelling adjustments, I don't believe if keeps the sensor from getting fouled by water/reversion?? Essentially, the sensor is powered (heater on) and providing signal output, just not feeding back to the ECU to engage the fueling adjustment algorithms, no?
I am going to try different Ignition settings in the software tomorrow and do some more timing light tests. Are any of you guys using Coil-Near-Plug (CNP) set-ups and the Holley Coil driver packs? There are choices in the pull-down menus for Ignition types. My current ICF includes the Holley 60-2 DIS but it seems to me the "custom" option should be selected as my Crank Sensor is set up 11 Teeth past TDC for Cyl #1. This was established through the mounting position and the instructions which recommended that the Sensor be located some number of teeth ATDC #1. This value can't be entered unless you are in the Custom configuration. I am also suspicious about some of the settings in the custom Ignition fields such as Dwell time. I have found some info about base settings for the various coil configurations. Any experience on Coil types/configurations?
I feel like maybe I should have purchased the Holley waste-fire smart coils but my prior EFI set up had individual 2-wire "Dumb Coils". Holley offers the Driver packs for this configuration but there is not a lot in the way of the details for set-up information.
I am also running fully sequential with cam Sync trigger. I fitted the engine with an EFI Connection magnetic cam phase sensor distributor housing (digital falling) in accordance with the Holley installation instructions.
Lastly, I am using the Holley Magnetic Crank trigger. Seems there are some software setting considerations for this as well.
Anyway, back into the bilge tomorrow to try some things. I will verify cam timing, and see if setting up Custom Ignition parameters (Dwell timing etc) help to improve Idle/reversion. I am also going to see how the timing light tracks expected firing events at cranking RPM to see if the different Ignition configuration settings have an effect.
Thanks to everyone for your contributions to this thread!
I will post with progress (hopefully).
GT2750
09-09-2017, 12:39 AM
#20
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When I pull the bung out of my pipe it shoots water everywhere enough for me to ask the question here, and it turns out that any air leak will cause reversion. I have the heatsink extender and when I pull it out it's covered in dry soot with zero moisture. That was a real good demonstration on how a motor could hydrolock because of a bad header gasket.
