Need help with excessive oil getting into cylinders on new build
 

I could really use some help. I'll try to make this as short as I can (but very long story).

Last year I had my turbo street car engine freshest up and went from single turbo to twins. Same heads, crank, rods, block, oil pan etc. Basically only thing changed was new pistons, cam and I had the heads freshed up. All by what I would consider a very reputable builder and separate head guy. After 125 Street miles it started smoking from the tailpipes bad. Back of the car covered in oil. Didn't even drive it hard yet. Pulled engine and brought back to builder. He used profilometer(spelling?), and said cylinders were perfect. He rehoned and put new rings in.

Got it back and lasted 75 street miles when it happened again. Pulled engine and brought back again. New pistons had thin rings (.043 top and 2nd and 3mm oil) which I questioned when setting up the first build. This is a 100% street car. Had him put different pistons in(exact pistons I was running the last 10 years without issue) with 1/16, 1/16, 3/16 rings.

Had the engine built a third time and dynoed before it left his shop(he ran it NA with a carb-I run EFI with the turbos). Would be a tremendous amount of work to remove fuel injection and intercooler from the car to dyno. Ran perfect on the dyno, no oil on top of the pistons-great. Put it in the car and it lasted about 50 miles before it starts to smoke again AHHHH. Yank engine again.

This time I inspect everything very carefully and find the Eagle crank was slightly twisted. Ordered a new Callies Magnum crank, new Oliver rods, Dart Iron Eagle block, change Canton oil pan to a Moroso and bring back for build #4 thinking it was a windage issue from the second turbo drain hose hitting the crank counter weight. Build 4 he puts back on the dyno with no issues. I told him to really work the engine over on the dyno and he did. Install in the car again, and this time it starts smoking bad after 15 mins of idle and 6 street miles on the highway-did not even see boost yet.

Everything was checked out by multiple people with nothing jumping out.

Going to quickly explain the changes:

Build 1: New pistons-AP stainless top ring, napier second ring with 12lb oil ring (.043, .043, 3mm). Intake rockers removed and intake pressurized to 30-40psi with no signs of leakage
Build 2 : AP stainless top ring, napier second ring with 15lb oil ring (.043, .043, 3mm), heads completely inspected and guides opened slightly new valve guide seals. Intake rockers removed and intake pressurized to 30-40psi with no signs of leakage for a second time.
Build 3: New pistons- Moly top ring, cast second ring, with 15lb oil ring (1/16, 1/16, 3/16) new valve seals
Build 4: AP stainless top ring, napier second ring, with 16-18lb oil ring (1/16, 1/16, 3/16)

Intake manifold was checked for cracks and surface straightness to heads-perfect. great gasket crush-used ample rtv around ports to make sure it was sealed.
Turbos are bone dry on the outlet side-oil not leaking from turbos and going into the intake. All cold side piping bone dry and the upper part of the intake is bone dry. Intake ports soaked with oil, top of pistons cover in oil and head chambers covered in oil. Intake rocker hols doen bolts go through the intake port. (pressurized intake with no leakage). Resealed rocker stand hold down bolts on 2 different builds just to make sure anyway.
After last build I borrowed a carb and stuck it on and let it idle to make sure injectors weren't an issue with turbo not blowing into the engine. Smoked just as much.
Send injectors back to BUP AND Injector Dynamics after 1st build just to make injectors weren't washing the cylinders down.
After 1st build Installed 8 egts to datalog to monitor cylinders just to make sure I wasn't washing down the cylinders-yes full time EGTs on my street car.
All 4 builds were running E85 by me-pump gas on dyno. EVERYONE I spoke to said E85 wasn't a problem as long as tune was good-ran E85 for the last 7-8 years without any issues.
Running dual Wb's new sensors installed before 1st build and another new set after 1st or 2nd build.
Tried an 8mm valve seal on my 11/32 intake valves-no change.

Myself and a few others questioned the hone-seems very fine and probably was the same for 4 builds. To the eye looks like 400 stone. Not everyone agrees it's the hone.
I questioned the AP Stainless top ring as it seems to have mixed results on a street engine. I was told by a few that had the same issue to ball hone it with a 240 stone. I bought the ball hone and just couldn't do it to my new dart block. This weekend I brought the block to another very well respected machine shop on the East coast and asked them to give me a 280 grit hone. Pick it up the other day to see another fine hone (a touch coarser than before but still fine to the eye and finger nail. This was after I explained the situation to them. I asked what grit it was and he said 320 ahhh. He said he ran a fine stone on it for 2 wipes at the end so it looks fine. I ordered new Moly plasma top ring, cast 2nd and 21-22lb oil ring setup. I'm very tempted to run the 240 ball hone through it this weekend. Different ring manufactures and giving different opinions. One said the 320 finish was too fine for my new rings on the street. Another says the 320 would work. I'm also questioning the hone angle. It looks less than what is recommended.

I'm just about at my wits end. Anyone have any opinions on the cylinder finish and ring package? Anything else that could be checked?

Hone in below pictures look much finer/less aggressive in person. Hard to capture accurately.

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It seems to me that if it has been dynoed quite a few times with no problems and then every time you put it back in the car with the turbos you start having a problem then the "problem" is most likely with the turbo setup ?? Modern rings really seal up pretty easily and the smooth cylinder wall finish is pretty normal. It looks like there is a ton of oil on the back of the intake valve in that one picture ? Where is that coming from ? Have you changed anything else in the entire combination ? Camshaft ? Intake ?

You might want to post your question over on "Speed Talk" too. Lots of engine builders there.
https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/

im a thinking to much crankcase pressure /too much oil on top? how about a vacuum pump to keep less pressure in crankcase?

It definitely points to the turbos. The turbos are bone dry. When the seals leak, it could be on the exhaust or compressor side. If it was leaking on the compressor side the complete intake tract/ piping would have oil on it. Every pipe feeding the engine is bone dry, including the turbo itself. (Brand new Precision turbos- not that a brand new turbo couldn't have issues). If the turbo exhaust wheel was leaking oil it wouldn't get into the cylinders like this. It would smoke like a bandit though.

Yes that is oil that puddled up on the closed intake valve after the engine was shut off. Crazy amount.

I did change cam, but very similar specs. .565/.565 238/242 on a 115 separation. No over lap to speak of. Same intake.

The few things that were changed were the turbo kit, can and pistons.

Same shop did the hone 4 times. That's why I'm suspect of the hone. Probably the same guy did the same thing each time. Have many people telling me it's the hone, and many saying is not the hone. I'm really at a loss right now. Spoke to quite a few people that had the same issue with the Total Seal AP stainless top ring. Ball honed, installed new rings and new had another issue.

I'll post this over on Speed Talk thanks

I have 2 good sized breathers, one on each cover. Same setup I used for the last engine with single turbo. These builds weren't even leaned on when this issue popped up.

After 2nd build builder suggested vac pump. This is a 100% street car. From what I have read, the vac pump won't last and they have issues. IMO the pump would just mask the problem plus I don't have any room to mount one.

i must agree with billk,i don,t think the oil is getting past the rings.the oil on the back side of the intake valves makes me think the oil is coming from the intake tract somehow.

Do the sparkplugs show signs of burning oil? photos?

If you do install a vacuum pump I have a nice HD 12 volt one that I’m pretty certain near new if not new. About the size of a small alternator.

Just an fyi.

Thanks for all the help so far.

I know everything points to the turbos or intake leaks. Everything was checked out multiple times by many very good people. Intake gasket has nice even crush. Intake to head surface angle checked (with in 1*). I did not send turbos in for inspection but spoke to company on the phone. They agreed if the compressor side was dry, the source of oil wasn't the turbo.

In my mind I keep going to the hone and/or rings. Spoke to a few people that very similar issue. Said new rougher hone with different rings, some even used the same rings over, and oil problem went away. This is probably my last go with it. Want to try to find the cause. Also wondering if it is the oil rings.

Had numerous conversations with another member on this site, and he thinks it could be the oil rings. A friend of mine is very close to a very well respected marine local engine builder (highly respected on this site also) and he instantly said oil rings. He said needs to be 22-24lb. I'm not saying it's not the oil rings but it's a crazy amount of oil. I have a new set of Total Seal rings at my house now that supposedly have 22-26lb oil rings. Just order a different set of rings from JE that are suppose to be 21-22 lb. I am going to install each and do the pull scale test to see what each comes up.

Attached are a few more pictures. Can see the intake rocker stand bolts were sealed well. Intake gasket good crush. I have more pictures of very oil color tinted spark plugs.

Also forgot to mention head spring pockets were cut deeper to make room for taller spring. From memory the were cut around..100. Have to measure to verify. I looked at the pockets and nothing jumps out like a crack etc. I put alcohol and brake clean in the pockets with springs removed looking for and leakage in the ports, nothing. Same valve guides are before.

Oil can only be coming from rings, intake gasket or valve guides.
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Thanks I'll keep that in mind. I really don't want to run a vac pump, nor should I have to. But might be enough where I have no problems.

Forgot to mention that I was thinking engine is being loaded different on dyno vs in car. On dyno I'm assuming they put some load to warm it up(less intake vac). In the car the engine pulls 15" vac at idle and 16-17" at 2100rpm cruise. Thinking the higher vac is causing the oil to get sucked past the rings.

Problem also seems to happen worse after I ran it hard- (boost) or right after during hard decel- very high vac. Sucking past the rings.

Any thoughts on this?

If it was rings it would be doing it on the dyno too. If anything the extra boost from the turbo would be increasing blowby but that would not make it get oil on the tops of the pistons. I probably do an average of two to three blocks a week and I finish them all with a 280 grit stone followed by a few strokes with plateau finishing brushes. The bores are very smooth and I have had absolutely no issues with ring sealing. I used a profilometer on it and sent the scan to Total Seal and they said it was perfect.

I dont even see a 320 grit Sunnen hone stone available ? Maybe a "dingleberry" type ? As many issues as you have been having I would hope that you would have the block honed in a "real" hone. The walls look like they could use it any way.

I guess you have the engine back apart otherwise I would tell you to put some die in the oil and run it a few more times. Then when you take it apart you might be able to see where the oil is coming from.

Pm me price, details, I been wanting to buy one to play with on my dyno, you ever used one (electric i mean), Thanks, Smitty

Maybe you mentioned it already, but when does that smoke actually occur? On accel or decel?
You mention the guides were not replaced, but were the valves replaced? If so, do you have data that shows actual valve guide clearance (did they measure guides and measure valves that were installed?)
Smoke on decel generally indicates excessive valve guide clearance/wear or a valve seal issue, in an extreme case.
Terry

Seeing any oil in the intake runners?

Look at the pics. There is a pantload.

Amazing to me, anyway.

Guess I should have said runners in the intake manifold as opposed to in the head. I do see oil in the intake runners of the heads. Reason I asked was if a malfunctioning PCV sys ( if present) might be responsible for oil burning. Kinda lines up with "after a hard run" (elevated crankcase press) and "heavy deceleration" (super high intake vacuum). Just a thought.

Block had a real hone each and every time. My concern is the hone is to fine, even the one I just got last week from a different shop. New shop and I guessed old hone was a 400 finish. When I went to pick up block last week I asked what the finish was because it looked very fine to me again. He said 320 or like 320, don't remember exactly what his words were. I'm going to call him and ask if he can tell me what stone he used. That will at least let me know what is there. He did say he did 2 final strokes each cylinder.
What bothers me is I think the finish is too fine. Even you said you do a 280grit. When I called up Mahle rings this past week the tech said 280. Said 320 was to fine. This is with plasma moly rings. Attached is a few pictures of latest hone. Honestly the finish is MUCH finer in person than the camera is capturing. You can barely feel it with your finger nail. I wish you were
closer Bill. I would ask you to take a look at it. You are about 4 1/2hrs away from me. But at this point I would like to get to the bottom of my issue. I'm in ny. I did drive to NJ for what I believe is a very reputable shop.
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Honestly I'm not 100% sure when it happens. In the past it seemed like it was there after getting on it, so it could be cylinder pressure or hi vac on decel, not really sure.

Guides weren't changed, only exhaust valves are new. After first build I disassembled the heads and found 2 valves that were snug in the guides, no damage or galing. When I dropped engine off I brought heads to have builder look at. He said the other 14 guides measured .0012 clearance. I told him to loosen them up a bit do to the heat of the turbo. They are now .0016-0018. He said that was more than safe for a street car.

Crazy oil on head intake ports, all 8. Single plane carb intake(converted to efi). Just oil in lower part of intake runners. Just a bit up from intake gasket. Upper portion of intake is bone dry. Again doesn't appear to be the turbos.

Oil can only be coming from rings, intake gasket, valve guides, valve seals or intake rocker bolts. And keep in mind it is all 8 cylinders.

I'll take some pictures of the heads and intake tomorrow. I did not clean them yet.

This picture was looking down the intake towards the heads. Also another picture of oil sitting on closed valve. This is what was left after the engine ran. Even if i had no valve seals i don't think that much oil would get through.

I'm still thinking hone because that was the only thing that probably stayed the same all 4 builds. Again just a guess now. I'm not looking forward to putting it together again till I figure this out.
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No pcv on the engine.

Viton seals on the intake valves should do it.
if your turbo/intake plumbing is clean, then it's not turbo seals. There's only one other place that you'll get oil on the intake valve, and that's from "above".

Does sound like bad intake valve seals but all 8 cyls, on a fresh build???
Have you verified the oil drain back passages in the heads are completely unobstructed? I could see oil getting past all 8 intake valve seals if they were submerged.

Edit
BTW, this might explain why its happy on the dyno too.. Under hard excelleration, all the oil is pushed towards the rear drain back passage. On the dyno, oil would use both (front and rear) drain back passages.

New viton seals installed multiple times. Running 11/32 valves. Went as far as installing 8mm seals on the intake. No difference. On the last build I went as far as running it on a carb in my driveway at an 1800rpm idle(high vacuum) with turbos spinning but the piping just blowing in the atmosphere. Slight incline on driveway. Smoking like a freight train. It wasn't residue oil that was sitting that had to burn off. After the high idle run is when I got the picture of the oil sitting on the valve. Seems to me it happens more under vac, just a guess.

Same block and heads were used first 3 builds as well as on my last single turbo setup. Ran it for last 10 years and spun it to 7500rpms with no issues.

Funny thing on the dyno he had a slight oil pressure drop during the first pull. He was sucking the pan dry. He said it was common. He added another qt of oil and all was good. He said it was the perfect storm where the engine is level on the dyno and could fill the heads up with oil and no g force with the car accelerating forcing the oil towards the back of the head/drain.
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Are all the Oil rings lined up the same way as in the pic with the top ring gap over the wrist pin?

What oil are you breaking in on the dyno and when you are having issues in the car?

I have 7 pistons with the rings still on them. I'll check ring orientation when I get home later and report back.

Different oil each time. First build was one qt drivem 5-30 break in oil with remaining 5-30 reg oil. 2nd build all oil was driven 5-30 break in oil. 3rd and 4th builder put oil in. I know he said he usually just uses plain 5-30. I brought him 7qts of driven bresk in oil for last build. Not sure what he used. He workmanship was Excellent. Bearings look perfect.

I have always ran 15-50/20-50 on this engine. I thought the thinner oil might have been an issue. Last build I drained oil and put 10-40 in. I thought there was some improvement so I drain it and put in 20-50. Was smoking badly again. All of this was during 30 miles and 30 minutes of run time. That's when the engine was pulled with frustration.

Nothing makes sense. Something is being over looked.

is this a small block ford ?

The intake rocker hold down bolts? Yes, many times. You can see all threads completely sealed. No oil on threads when removed. Had to fight it out to the last thread.

Also pressurized intake on 2 different build looks for leaks. Put 1" steel plate over carb pad on intake, installed air fitting, removed all intake rockers and put 30-40psi in looking for leaks. None found. Just heard occasional very faint tiny pop. Thinking it was valve seals. Hardly there but wanted to mention.
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This seems to add credence to the theory that oil isn't draining back down from top side of heads quick enough. You can "gasket match" (using old head gasket) the oil return holes in head to same holes in block to see how well they align. I've heard of people "moving" the holes slightly to improve alignment. I may be off in left field here, but it's a quick and easy thing to verify/eliminate.

Just realized this is a Ford which I have very little experience with. Don't they have oil return passages at front and back of head? Hard to tell from the pics.

Yes this is a sbf. I know I'm an outsider here 🙃. I do run a bbc in the boat though. There are a lot of very smart members here that I hope someone would catch something that was missed.

The sbf head drain back holes leave something to be desired for sure. But I ran these heads and block for the last 10 years with no issues, so I don't think that's the main problem. I ran the old engine to 7500 and never once seen smoke from it. The oil issue happens at low rpm also. I ran it at 1800rpm high idle and it was smoking like crazy. The oil covered valve picture was from after the high idle. I'm not saying the the drain backs couldn't use improving but the oil pump isn't flowing that much at 1800rpm to flow more than the drain back could handle. 7500rpm for an extended run like in a boat and it could definitely be an issue. The engine runs at wot about 9seconds max. The time to run the 1/4 mile. My typical cruise rpm on highway is around 2100. I would do that for miles at a time. Also ran heavier oil than the 5-30 on the working engine. The heavier oil should drain back slower.

Come to think of it, i think this problem happens when the engine warms up. Unless the oil is just burning more than, not sure.

Everyone please understand i am not arguing with anyone here. I really appreciate all the help you are giving. I'm hoping there is an ah hah moment that comes out of this thread. First builds were almost identical to the engine that ran for 10 years with no issue. That's what makes this so strange. Something definitely happened/ changed. Hoping I can find it before I give up, which is getting close.

I have a small thought that it could be something with the heads, don't know. That is one of the few parts that wasn't changed out over all these last builds. Again these heads had no issues prior. Not to say something didn't happen to them when they were freshened up. If i thought there was a good chance the heads were the problem, I would buy new ones. Issue with new heads is they don't make my exact ones anymore. The newer version was slightly different valve angles which won't line up with my pistons. Then I'm getting mixed answers if my current shaft rockers are compatible with the newer castings. If I need to buy both it would probably be another 4-5k so I'm holding back as of now. That's a lot of money just taking a guess.

You can sort of see one of the oil drain back holes in the lower right of the head.

Thanks for all the help so far.

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You said “sucking pan dry” on the dyno so u added a quart. That sounds like a “new” issue, indicating more oil is being pumped that the old problem free builds. I assume new oil pump, or at least gone through this rebuild? I would start there.

i bought some “rebuilt” bbc engines and long story short the valve springs pulled the valves seals off the guides and up to the bottom of the retainers. Intake valves had the exact same puddling and smoke at idle and high idle you do. I think you are flooding the valve covers and it is running down the valve stems.

Old to new build I ran the same oil pan. Both were using a high volume oil pump, a new different pump though. I never had old engine on dyno so I don't know if it would have been a problem years ago. That would be nice to know.

I thought about blocking off the drain back holes in the head, putting valve cover on and filling head up with oil over the valve seals, than pulling vacuum thru the intake port to see if the oil gets sucked in. You could be on to something.

Just a note, running the same oil pump between old and new setup. Mellings hv. I did buy another brand new pump when I did the dart block because it had to be clearanced differently for the new block. Both of the new pump builds have issues.

I removed an intake and exhaust valve spring from one cylinder. I filled up the spring pockets with alcohol (thinner than water). I was hoping to see it trickle into the intake port of the head but it didn't. Maybe I need to remove all the springs and fill the entire head up with alcohol and see what happens. I have always wondered if the head guy did something to the casting when he machined the spring pockets deeper. I could not find any thing YET.

Can anyone recommend a GOOD head guy around ny? Guy that freshed up my heads is supposedly top in the field, but things do happen.

Understand same heads and block for 10 years. I'd still lay the old head gasket over the head and block just to make sure head gasket isn't partially blocking the drainback holes.
Was the same manuf/part # head gasket used on all the "bad" builds? If so, maybe a bad batch got released?

Is oil pressure significantly higher than it was before this issue started? Anything replaced in the valve train that could increase oil flow to rockers, like lifters or push rods?

Just want to say that the last hone picture "looks" fine to me, maybe even "rougher" than what Ii end up with. But its hard to say with a picture. Like I said earlier most modern rings want a pretty "smooth" finish and rarely have a problem sealing.

How is your pcv system arranged?

does it pickup from the valve covers or intake manifold? We had an issue where intake tray was removed but pcv system not re-located to valve covers. Resulted in a ton of oil in the intake that ultimately found its way to the top of the valves.

When you said windage tray, by chance did you mean the intake valley tray ?

yes sorry...my mistake. Will correct.

No pcv sys installed. See post #22.