Merc 496 HO -- trouble with new technology
 

I agreed to purchase a 2002 Powerquest 340 Vyper performance boat November 2001 with anticipated delivery January 2002. During my boats construction I had to opportunity to work closely with and visit the factory several times to customize my boat to my personal desires. Particularly instrumental in helping me obtain satisfaction during the building process were Mandi Brower and Mark Winia of Powerquest. Not only did they walk me through the process and explain every nuance, they also worked diligently to ensure that my boat was constructed with only the highest standards of quality possible.

Despite the best efforts of the Powerquest team, there were demons lurking in the background thanks to the fragmented nature of the boat manufacturing industry. After an excitement filled day on January 5th, when the boat found its way to me, I had to opportunity to carefully scrutinize every detail of the boat before its first run in the water the following week. Why not run it on delivery day you ask. Poor weather conspired against me and I was unable to run the boat the weekend it was delivered. That’s a mistake that I will not make again as you will understand in a moment.

The following weekend provided me with a opportunity to take my boat on its first in water run since being built. I naturally jumped at the chance. What I found from here on surprised me and taught me the “hard knocks” of new boat buying.

First thing that I found was that there was absolutely no gas put in by the dealer to ensure that the boat, which is rack stored inside and they knew that, could get to the gas dock at my marina. I did not expect them to “fill it up” although that would have been nice considering that my purchase was for a $200k+ MSRP product but, I did expect them to put enough gas in to get me to a dock! Ducky's was the dealer out of Middletown, PA and would HIGHLY recommend that anyone consider other dealers as possible options.

Second, after getting gas, I started the starboard engine and I got a continuous intermittent alarm indicating there was something wrong with that engine. I had already completed a fluids check prior to starting either engine and was 99.99% sure that everything was full according the Mercruiser specs. Naturally I shut down engine and started to diagnose what could be causing the alarm. After thorough inspection I found several alarming issues. Most of the hose clamps on both engines were loose (some actually leaked). After tightening those up I found the true culprit of the alarm. The drive oil reservoir sensor on the starboard engine was bad as proved by unplugging it and running the engine with no further problems. One would think that this type of defect would be found either at the Mercruiser factory or at least at the boat manufacturer or dealer! New part on order…

Third, after successfully tightening all leaking hoses and getting both engines started and running, I took the boat down the river to the bay to “open it up” and test her out. Everything was going great with the 30 minute ride at idle down the river. Everyone knows that proud moment that there is when you take out a few people on your new boat and you get to bring her up on plane… well not me. In fact it was an extremely embarrassing one with my experience. As I started out of the hole slowly bringing both engines up to speed, the port engine suddenly failed around 3000 RPM. I slowed to idle and tried to restart the port engine as anyone would. Unfortunately, that was not going to happen. After analyzing the wires, plugs, fuel system and several attempts at restarting, I was forced to limp back to port with one engine. Extremely disgusted, embarrassed and angry I tried to look through all of that to find a solution. The next morning I replaced the fuel filter thinking it may be a fuel problem. Mercruiser must have used 1000 ft/lbs of torque to put the filter on because it was possibly the hardest thing that I have ever had to remove from an engine. They leave clamps loose and over tighten filters. What is up with that?

I tried again to run but the exact same results occurred. Now I was getting really frustrated! I even paid, out of my own pocket, a Mercruiser Master Mechanic to come down on a Sunday to help me diagnose the problem. He basically was left guessing but thought that it might be electrical and he would check it out the following week. As it turns out he needed to order the special adapter for his computer reader since the new 496 MAG HO engines are so different than its predecessors. Why doesn’t Mercruiser mandate this or provide them??? When it finally came in the next week and after plugging it in to read the computer, no items were listed as “out of conformance”. Funny, I thought these new SmartCraft engines were supposed to be able to diagnose problems more like today’s cars do. I guess not! What he did find through a network of other mechanics who have worked on the 496 engine was a problem with the wiring harness for the fuel system. Basically it amounted to a creased wire that was breaking contact. He fixed that problem after several days of searching and we aimed to test it all over again. As you may have guessed, the results were the same. Still no resolution and Mercruiser had no clue as to what the problem could be. One additional item, when the warranty history for my engines was pulled we found that the engine that is having all of the problems was actually having problems before it ever left the factory! In fact, a sensor called the Crank Position Sensor was replaced for some mysterious reason.

The next day (yet another sunny beautiful day that I could not use my boat) I attempted to swap main computers to see if that would solve the problem thinking that maybe the computer was bad. Nope, that did nothing. As it stands know, I alone spent the better part of 4 days trying all of the “simple” things like loose connectors and wires, bad connections, faulty relays, and bad computers that might cause problems. Still nothing was resolving the issue. Again I even had the mechanic down to take a look at it and he was baffled.

The following Monday I spent some time with the mechanic at the shop while he was trying to diagnose my problem. What he found is that there MAY be a relation to the original part that was replaced by Mercruiser. The thought is that the sensor is either still bad or that the wiring is bad for that sensor. The funny thing is that this sensor is critical to its operation, since it determines the timing adjustment for the whole engine. In fact, it now makes sense when trying to restart the engine that it occasionally backfires and that the exhaust leaves a black residue like it is burning rich on the fuel mixture. He is busy chasing that down and hopefully after 24 days of “out of service” time as of right now we will have the issue resolved.

The purpose of my long winded story was to point out several things. First, and I can not say this with enough zeal, NEVER EVER buy a boat (new or used) with out first sea-trailing it before you plop down the check! I made this mistake assuming (and we all know what happens when you do that) that a “NEW” boat would not have these types of issues. I also found out, very quickly I might add, that the service industry within the marine sector is so poorly organized that it is amazing that people buy boats. If any of you have ever had to deal with the service department of your dealer you know what I mean. Second, something must be done to drive the “big dog on the block” to improve. There is clearly very little opposition to Mercruiser in the performance engine arena and as such, they hold us consumers over a barrel. My only recourse besides begging is to invoke the Magnusson-Moss Act, more commonly known as the “lemon laws”, to help my case. As it stands now, I clearly have a building case for which to invoke this although I would like to be able to rely on the boat manufacturer. I still have a HUGE lump in my throat having spent this much money on a “toy” and not being able to use it or even get the level of attention that I feel is appropriate from any resource to help me resolve the issue. The industry today manages problems like these by pointing the finger and saying “that is a Mercruiser or a so and so problem” instead of dealing with the customer regardless of who made the components. In my humble opinion, I compare this type of thinking to buying a new car and having a problem with your brakes. Is the consumer responsible to find out who the manufacturer of the brakes are and TRY and get some service from them or are they supposed to rely on the vehicle manufacturer to resolve the problem via the dealer/manufacturer? Cleary the latter is the method that is used in the automotive industry today. Why are today’s boat builders so different? What will it take to drive them to improve? Didn’t the automotive companies once act in this manner?

If anyone knows how to help me resolve these issues please let me know.

Where is the dealer or salesman thru all of this?? Is the shop where you have the boat at the one that sold it to you? Sounds like the dealer was not even planing to take you out & make ready failed, with no fuel in it.

Since you have been waiting so long & they can not get it running why no ask them to put a new motor in boat. I would even call powerquest or Mercruiser youself if dealer give you story you do not agree with.

I bought my first new eliminator boat last year. Of course the day I go to pick up & put it in the water it is foggy & can not see 10' out over the water. When I got to dealer he had motor running on hose. I pulled home & waited till the weekend to take out. I'm glad I did not have any problems like yours. I could not have handled it since my toy box burned down(up) the day before I was to pick up the boat. I did have so problems but eliminator & the dealer jumped thru hoops to correct the problems & make me happy.

Keep us posted

My 28 Powerquest was delivered in November,I hope I don't have any of the problems you are having. The only thing I did was look the boat over a little and no sea trial!! It has been sitting in the rack waiting for spring.I would think that if the dealer is no help that Powerquest would do everything they could to help you.Good luck, maby a letter to Mercruiser would help!!!

WOW............. :(

It is too bad things have to get this out of hand. Loose clamps? Whats up with that? Not that PQ is so busy that they cant rig a boat correctly. I once had a brand new bayliner (yes I know) I went on a sea (Lake) trial with the dealer and all performed perfect. The net day I had all the family on the boat and crank crank crank it would not start. It ended up being an ignition wire that got cut in the flywheel (outboard) and just would not go. A simple problem that got fixed. After that I NEVER had another problem Hopefully you will get yours fixed and you will have the same outcome. - Stay on them they OWE you a boat the works!

They are NO help and "too busy" with boats shows to deal with this. I guess that shows you where their priorities are.

Moral of the story: pick your dealer carefully (and avoid the southern PA PQ dealer).

What kind of dealer would not take you out and instruct you on the boat operation? Are they that far from water? All those issues would have been discovered, that is called a "DELIVERY CHECKLIST". Even Merc has one that's supposed to be gone over with the buyer. I would think most dealers go over the boat prior to delivery for their customers. Its one of the reasons we all don't get to buy at "Dealer Cost" right?

Keep your chin up, some of us delt with pushrods/fuel rail fittings etc. But when its right, it'll take 24 hrs to wipe the grin off your face :D

Our first purchase was a five year old boat. After the test drive with the salesman we came to a price agreement. While we arranged for a loan the dealership detailed the boat. After we signed the papers the service manager took us for a ride and showed us EVERY feature on the boat. He made a list of everything that did not work correctly (stereo, depth finder, trim switch) and replaced them. Over the course of one month I took the boat in for minor problems and everything was taken care of. That's dealer service! (National Marine - Peoria, IL).

[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: Frequency ]

The dealer is about 5 hours away and the day they delivered was the "big" snow storm week here in the south. In fact, my boatel was supposed to be closed on delievery day but they made an exception for me. Unfortunately, I should have waited until the weather was more cooperative so that this problem would have been discovered and fixed before I took delivery (or they would not have received the check for payment which I am sure would have motivated them).

PQ- Take BillR's out, I'm sure he won't mind ;) That why, you won't have to wait to open her up and see what it will do! :D

BillR and I are friends and at the same boatel. I have been on his and driven it. All things being equal, I would rather drive mine for all of the reasons that you think plus mine looks better too! :D

Hey, don't want to be the cause of another Virginia Beach boaters war. :D

ps. PQ said mine was the best looking 340 to ever leave the factory :cool:

Great points Dave...
Bottom line to all is DON'T SIGN
before a test run.
I ran lake Erie in 51 degrees.

Thanks for sharing your info. I hope you get her fixed soon.
Bryan

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: 2001 26ZX ]

Forgetta'bout it! You got nothing on this paint job and windscreen. Email me a pic of yours and I'll do the same ([email protected]).

Now we only gang up on others... LOL

Unfortunately it doesn't matter how good it looks if only one engine runs properly.

In the auto industry, the Japs opened a can of 6 sigma whoop-ass, and US auto manufacturers have been trying to catch-up for decades since. I've beaten the livin' **** out of several Toyotas, starting with a '71 Corolla and now towing my boat with a '97 4-banger pick-up - they just keep on tickin'. YMMV.

Build your own motors - that way you have no one to rely on but yourself! Pull those damn computers off, and throw on a Holley!!

Sorry dude. Just be glad this chit is happening in winter. Just imagine this in the middle of summer!! I know I'm not much help, but I feel your pain. Every new boat I ever bought (3 total) were almost more work than the used ones.

Steve,

Good to hear from you. Sorry we couldn't make the trip up for the OSO gathering.

You're right about building my own. I wish I had the time...

And that's why I'm going carburated...

Here is my opinion on this based on my personal experience with boats and also being a New car dealer service mgr. The dealer that sold you the boat is responsible for any problems. Every new car,truck,boat ,motorcycle etc. has a percentage of the cost earmarked to cover the cost of warranty repairs.You paid this when you bought a NEW boat.If the dealer cannot repair the boat then it is the manufacturers responsibility. You have made an error here by not immediately returning the boat to dealer no matter how far away and by having a non-selling dealer tech touch the engines. As soon as you noticed problems it should have gone back. If you get no satisfaction from dealer then go to Powerquest customer service. If no luck there which I doubt would happen but if so take immediate legal action.You cannot blame Mercruiser for loose clamps etc. because Powerquest bought motors from Mercruiser then installed them in boat. That is a Powerquest problem which should have been double checked by selling dealer. They are paid to check out boat before delivery to customer.I am sorry it seems so many mixups have occurred in this situation but a cool head will go a long way toward getting what you deserve. If you haven't already, start communicating with the owner of the boat dealer. If you get the brush off call Powerquest cust service and talk to dealers rep. This should get the ball rolling.

Good luck and keep us posted.

I agree with Bigwavz, you should've taken the boat back to where you bought it.
You made a mistake in having someone else's mechanic work on it and the biggest mistake was swapping the computers and attempting to diagnose/fix it yourself. If Mercury finds anything wrong that could even be remotely connected to what you were trying to fix they could say you caused the problem and deny the warrenty claim.
Good luck.

My 340 Vyper was the first of 3 down here.

On my motor, all the hose clamps were loose too. In fact, many were so loose, I could move the clamp on the hose with my hand. I even had engine coolant leaking out of one. All of these hoses are on the motor. The hoses that PQ attached or relocated are tight! Also my fuel filters are SO tight, I bent a pretty beefy wrench trying to remove them. They are still on, I'll let the tech remove them.
Merc needs to have better quality control!!

I too wish the dealer had given us some instruction on some items of the boat. But, the things I had a questions on, I asked them of PQ and have recieved very detailed and comprehensive answers.

That Sucks....Sorry to hear that :( :( :( Stories like that just piss me off!!!

I think i would trailer up to Ducky's and drop it off on thier front lawn, maybe even keep going and back it through thier showroom wall :mad:

Good luck.

Terrible story...Sorry to hear that. Nothing worse than beating that intense level of excitement from you with a string of problems.

I can relate to the fuel filters and the oil filters being WAY, WAY over-tight. I literally destroyed not one, but two beefy filter wrenches before drilling through the oil filter and using a prybar to get it loose.

As for the hoses and wiring, there's no excuse for that. Shameful actually. Someone mentioned a delivery checklist. If the dealer did not go over these with you present they are not doing their job at all. As a matter of fact, I couldn't leave my dealership until this was completed and I signed stating that I was completely satisfied. This was after a lengthy sea-trial. That dealership needs a kick in the ass wake-up call.

This is an unbelievable story...

Maybe you should tell the dealer that thousands of your OSO friends may be reading this and watching how they respond to your problems .

I for one would shy away from this dealer already !

When I picked up my new boat last May , we had already taken five shake down cruises and made a checklist each time of things that needed to be looked at. The support both before and after has been terrific !

It's dissapointing to see customers treated this way especially considering that sales and profits are way off in the boating industry . Now's the time for them to go way out of their way to satisfy..

I wish you luck !

i totaly agree with bigwavz about the dealers being more responceabal. i also have been in the car bussiness for 20+ years and the quaility was inproved thanks in part to the japanees companys with their quaility control procedures.maybe we need the japs to start making our boats over here!! it all goes back to the manufactures by them not policeing their dealers properly!!it is sad that we can,t have the same quaility with out boats as we do on our automobiles!! my 2 cents worth: BILL :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Copy this thread to PQ, Dealer and Merc.

In an unrelated matter, I did this to a supplier, and within a day the issue was taken care of. They know that 3800+ members are reading this.

Good Luck!

WOW!

Lot's of great posts! Thanks for all the advice and help.

I hope that my experience has been a learning experience for the rest of my fellow OSO members. It's this kind of feedback and camaraderie that make an organization like OSO so great! :D

I can relate to your feelings at this time. I went through a similar problem with the delivery of my new boat with my dealer. To make things worse, the dealer went out of business just after the delivery and I got porked as a result. Had to eat $600 in repairs that the dealer should have taken care of during the initial sea-trial. Your dealer is still there, I would definately make your feelings known and forward this thread to them. This is the same dealer that sells Pantera's also?? I've had my eyes on one of those boats and would have considered contacting them until now. Steve

Sorry to hear about these type of problems, I hope you can get them all resolved in a timely fashion.

Here is another question as long as this was brought up...

Lets just say that PQVyper340's new boat arrived at the dealer and the dealer decided to take the boat out and do the water test prior to delivery. First off, can the dealer do that without you present?, if so, how would everyone feel if the dealer noted that he took the boat out for a sea trial and ran the boat HARD to make sure the rpm's were right as well as checking for leaks, etc, etc.....In otherwords, he says "hey, took your boat out yesterday and ran it at 5100 rpm's to make sure the props were set up right, GPS'd your speed and it hit 80 mph @ 5150 for 5 minutes, and I cut real sharp turns, and I flew it off 4 footers to make sure everything was tight, and I did numerous holeshots to make sure your drives were ok", would you settle for that?

Personally I would be pissed if the dealer told me he took my brand spanking new boat out and ran the **** out of it to "make sure everything was working properly".

Granted how else is there to make sure everything is just right. I just don't like the idea of the dealer performing the checklist prior to delivery.

Loose hoses from Merc?, no doubt about it, poor quality control.

PQV, you mentioned that a Mercruiser Master Mechanic did was the person looking at your engine. Was this person an actual Mercruiser Trained Certified Mechanic? Or was he a Master Mechanic that works on Mercruisers.

Does anyone know the requirements to be a "Certified Mercruiser Tech". Is it just training and a test or is there an apprenticship involved such as with electricians to get the certification.

PQ, I too have had my share of problems with new boats purchased from dealers (2). You MUST be vigilant. And as others have said, keep going up the food chain if you get no satisfaction. Also, does the dealer belong to the local BBB (Better Business Bureau)? Whether they do or not, contact them! Nothing worse for dealers than a bad rep. I had a bad experience with a dealer for a new Checkmate several years back. Plunked down about $3,000 deposit at NYC boatshow with the understanding that the money was refundable for a certain period if I changed my mind. Well, I did, but they would not refund the money. Luckily, they belonged to the BBB. Went through arbitration, and I won.
And, for those really tight filters, try getting your hands on the biggest channel locks you can find. I've used that to loosen oil filters on my truck (and boat) and it works.

One question - why did you buy a boat in PA when you live in VA?

HP500EFI - absolutely the dealer has the right to do it. Its not your boat until you sign-off and hand over the money. I think your example is a little extreme however, it wouldn't be in the dealers best interest to do anything more than bring engines to temp, check for leaks, forward/reverse, getting on plane, etc..

My boat was ran @ the factory prior to shipment, why?, I don't know. The merc. installation manuals tell the installer how to get max. rpm's out of the motors (200 rpm increments at a time). My certificate tells all test conditions, temp, humidity, gas-on-board, prop(s) rotation, rpm and speed. My dealer then, took it out after prep to verify for himself that all systems were OK.

On my delivery day the boat had 3 hrs, we both went out for about an hour, I know he didn't "jump" on it during his time, because you should have seen his face when I pulled it over 4000. :D

New 340 guys, not to add any more issues, but when I changed my oil @ 20 hrs, the port filter came off so hard I stripped the threads. I'm talking about bending an oil filter strap wrench and needing both hands to twist it off :mad: . I got lucky, and ran a die back down with the new filter.

HP5
Had friend order new boat with special motors. Factory took out boat prior to shipping to verify everything was OK. Factory though everthing was OK & shipped to dealer. Dealer when he got boat put on water hose to make sure everything was OK. Dealer felt one motor did not sound right & went to have checked out. Turns out when factory had boat out they fried a piston. Dealers called my friend & told him story & that he was getting it fixed. Dealer said would have to wait another week to take delievery. Friend at time was upset but I told him I thought he was lucky since he had not paid for boat yet & dealer found problem before we took out. Make long story short. Boat has been run hard for 2 years now with no other problems.

Thanks to everyone for their replies! It seems that a failed sensor (the same one that was already replaced) appears to be the cuplrit again!!! The Merc tech that I spoke of found bent pins and a couple of other minor things during the trouble shooting efforts, which by the way took the better part of a day. End result, he took the sensor off the stbd engine and ran it on the port (problem) engine and guess what... NO PROBLEMS. The new sensor was ordered for overnight delivery (which I will pay so that I do not have to wait any longer) today so we'll see what happens.

I'll keep you posted :rolleyes:

The failure part was the crank position indicator sensor. It was supposedly replaced but from what I saw it was NOT. After an exhaustive week+ of troubleshooting it was finally narrowed down and replaced.

Result: ran great! took her out and walked to 77 (GPS) with 9.5 hours port engine and 5.5 starboard engine. Didn't run it hard for more than a few seconds for obvious reasons but all is now well.

Bottom line: the engine had a failure out of the box and should never have been installed (words came right from the factory). It should have been returned as "defective" so that additional trouble shooting data could have been gathered.

Pass this on to anyone having any 496 HO problems or have them contact me if they need any help.

Thanks again for everyone's feedback and help.

Peace :)

Man, I've been reading this post from the beginning. I'm glad you got everything worked out! I would hope that you will get some rembersment(need spell check) from the dealer or Powerquest for your time and money spent! I personally feel that the factory should pick up the tab, because that should have been caught at the factory. Good luck with the new boat! Hope you get many trouble free hours out of it! :D Also, I am a Happy Powerquest Owner!

[ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: Gary C ]

Sorry to hear about your problems...

My 2001 Sunsation288 and 496/HO have performed flawlessly.


- jeff

[ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: JeffreyBoy ]

PQVyper340,

I hate to hear these kinds of stories. Nothing like this kind of mess to take the fun out of boating!!

I have had a similar nighmare that has lasted three years due to shops that don't care about what they give a customer.
You would think that a reputable shop or dealer would be concerned about customer satifaction and not let a product go out that is put together wrong or in my case machine work that was done wrong. Most in this case find a way to justify there actions and blame the mistake on the customer. They just move on to the next customers money..

I am glad your situation was resolved in short order!! I hope that all your troubles are in the past. I do agree that the industry is in need of realignment as to thinking! I have and still have reservations about continuing my life long hobby of performance boating due to the reputable shops in my area..

Good luck with your new toy!!

Dick

Sorry to hear about all the trouble with the dealer. If I'm not mistaken, I believe that you were talking about Ducky's, well make them take care of everything, make it right, then never go near those people again. I wouldn't buy a toaster from Ducky's.

Re: Merc 496 HO -- trouble with new technology
 

I am sorry anyone has to go through this and I agree the dealer is at fault but so is the tech that worked on it. the log showed the sensor was replaced so I would have started there . Bent pins you say?? sounds like someone reseated the original sensor and butchered the connection and or sensor. Had you just had the loose clamps and no gas the story would have been a lot less painful but I do have sorrow that anyone has to go through this. I troubleshoot for a living and every form of repair from toasters to 4 million dollar medical scanners have folks that have no place repairing anything !!!!!