Rotted Transom (Pics attached) whew!
 

I need to replace the wood core on my '84 10 Meter's transom. The whole damn thing.

Who has done this? Can I cut from the inside, leaving the gel intact? If so, how successful was it. I will fix the boat. Selling it (nor junking it) is not an option.

Thanks in advance.

This is where I discovered it.

That sucks it will be a big job but can be and is done. Yes you cut from the inside and then scrap a lot of **** off the outer fiberglass hull. You also probably need to look at the stringers, if the transom is bad it has probably got into the stringers too.

When you start to too the cutting make sure you have a good tyvek suit to protect you and I would buy a high end resparator, maybe even one of the units with an outside air source. The fiberglass dust is very, very bad on your lungs.

I am sure that there are more people with more knowledge about this than me that can help you. If it were me I would think about paying someone to do it.

Feel free to email me.

mike

Before replacing transom with wood, suggest checking into other materials. I will be re-building my transom next season with surplus aircraft bulkhead.

There's gotta be something better than wood!

Here's some good reading for you:

http://www.transomrepair.com/

http://www.rotdoctor.com/comments.html (click on links of customer's repair sites)

D. Ocean
Pompano Beach, FLA

This is not a easy job but definatly a doable one. You DEFINATLY cut from the inside. If you want to give me a call feel free (978) 986-0639. I have done this among other things in my boat. Yoiu can check out my stringer replacement project if you type in stringer replacement for a search. Some of the same processes that go on with the two.

Jon

Thanks guys.

Jon, I will call you this weekend.

Bryan

Give Fast Forward a call. They are in Brewerton, NY.
They do the best work in the area. I do not have their number at the moment.
You will not be disappointed.

Bryan -

Just wondering how you spotted the rot. Was it obvious? Or, how did you find out the transom was rotten.

Thanks

There are a couple of good local shops that can tackle this job: Watercraft Clinic in Red Creek( just off rt 104, 45 minutes from Rochester: Clint Samson is the owner, ph#315-754-0050) and Great Lakes Boat Repair in Sodus Point.

Both shops have experience with heavy structural repair. Not sure about Great Lakes, but Clint from Watercraft Clinic will come to your location to look at it for an estimate as well. He just had a Fountain in his shop that had taken a serious side ramming in the engine compartment that they did the structural repair.

I have seen FastForward Fix boats that look impossible
to repair, they do excellent work

Thanks for the help. I'm going to do the job myself. My father owned a body shop for awhile and the work involved is fairly straight forward. I wondered how to attach the new transom to the hullsides. If people preferred epoxy or simply used ordinary resin. What kind of mat was used as well.

bford1,

I pulled a thru-hull fitting and found the inside of the hole to be very wet. It was bad enough that I can remove wood with just my finger. I also pulled the exhaust tips, same thing. I will pull the drives/transom assembly and tabs this weekend. That will give me a better idea of how far the rot is. Hopefully, the stringers ar still good. I pulled the motor mounts. The wood is good at that point. I'll post pics of the progress.

Stipped. Yuk!

I did mine last year. After I got everything out and clean to the outer skin, i made templates out of cardboard, then cheap 1/4" ply and made sure it fot perfect before I cut the good expensive stuff. I used west system and pulled it in to the glass with through bolts until it was solid. Used some triaxial cloth I had around on the inside and tabbed to the stringers and hull sides with Kevlar. All with west system and so far so good. BTW, I know nothing about fiberglass and hated every minute of it.

I actually found my problem the hard way. Did a stern landing off a wave and one k-plane ripped right off and darn near sunk me.

What I did with my transom was to put Cabosile (micro balloons) into the resin and made up a paste. I used a notched trowel like you use to spread tile morter to spread out the paiste onto the two pieces of wood. I then through bolted it as Formula is suggesting. Use the bolt holes for your transom plate. You NEED to make sure when you pull it together that you do not distort your transome. If you put a straite edge along you transom you will probably find that it is NOT straite. Most are not even if they look it.

Jon

Man, I feel for you Bryan. It also scares the hell out of me. My Formula 357 is an '85 model and I have nightmares about finding something similar. I've been watching Jon's stringer replacement thread and there is no way I have that kind of patience. I would have taken that chainsaw and done the Texas Chainsaw Massacre dance all over the boat about 1/2 way through the project.

Formula 31 I'm glad you came out of that okay. I guess you were still able to drive back to port? That's scary.

So, what is it that causes the transoms to rot? Is it just age? Or, is it water migration from an improperly sealed through bolt? Or, not enough care taken at the factory to properly glass it all in or a combination?

Also, just wondering how old these boats are. I think Jon's was a '82??? Bryan - yours was an '84. Formula 31 - how about yours?

Formula31- That is a rough story. I'd like to avoid sinking...

Jon- How did you keep the transom sraight. I thought about putting a straight edge of some sort along the back and then putting mild pressure along it. The point would be to try and duplicate the molds integrity. Worth it, not worth it? Also, where do I cut the outer edge? I thought about one inch from the hullsides.

bford1- I know people that have boats older than all of ours with no rot just as we all heard of people with newer boats that have rot.

I just had an estimate (over the phone, mind you) of between 2k-3k. Having someone else do it would be easier but I simply won't pay that kind of money for this job.

If anyone wants to watch, they are more than welcome to come over as I tackle this. This weekend it will begin.

Bryan -

My hats off to you. I'd have to fork out the 3k. I have too many other projects and too little patience.

Best of luck with it. Please take pics. We'd love to see. Jon's experience has taught me (and others I'm sure) a lot. Thanks for all of the pics Jon. (By the way I don't think i need those orange buttons anymore as I found another solution.)

Brent

Hey Bryan,
My 1984 Excalibur 31 needs a transom too. It's nearly the same boat, really. (pad bottom notched transom)

Mine was soft in a few different places, around the drives, around one of the tabs. Half of my Gimbal retaining studs (thru the transom) were rotted and two to nearly less than 1/4 inch (from 7/16)!

I contemplated doing it, but I'm getting tired of learning how do stuff. (Man, I sound old!) I can paint, I can weld, I can assemble engines, I can assemble transmissions. I know if I learn to replace a transom, I'll never want to do it again. So I can't justify the learning curve.
I'm comfortible doing the glasswork, but I can only do it in 4 hour stints. How many times am I gonna have to be itchy? I watched 'em do it on Shipshape TV and it took 'em a week to remove all the old wood from the transom!

I found a guy to do it for a reasonable price and I can offset the cash outlay by doing side work at my buddies garage. I'd rather be greasy than itchy.

I admire you for tackling the job! I'm sure the guy I'm paying won't do it exactly the way I would, but he guarantees his work for 5 years.

As long as the holes in the transom need to be recut, I'm converting to Bravos, before Merc stops making all the TRS stuff.

Good Luck!
DS

Bryan ,

won't contest what's been said already but I don't think anyone's covered your question about material...
I've just done the transom in my 'baby' as part of complete hull/deck/cockpit removal resto. I've used all epoxy .. NO polyester resin anywhere. This is what the pros all recommend for 'older' boat work nowadays it seems.
Epoxy costs a fortune compared to regular fiberglass resin but it's infinitely stronger.. it's grip on the original glass is mindblowing. Plus you can do so much more with it.. turn it into micro baloon paste/lightweight fillers and a bulletproof glue.
I would'nt use anything else now .. besides if you already have the tools needed and a working familiarity with the nature of the job you can do it as well/better than someone else. I think I've saved $5000 on the transom alone,, that buys a lot of epoxy resin :D

Good advise here. I second Jons recommendation of the paste. Using it eliminates voids. Just try to bolt a transom assembly over a section with an air pocket, CRACK!
Use a couple 2 X 4s on the outside, thru bolt to the plywood inside and you'll have a strait solid transom.
Everyone says epoxy is better, but also harder to use and more expensive. I've only done polyester resin.
Gary

Gary, the only practical disadvantage to epoxy that I've found is that depending on your choice of hardener (fast/standard/slow) you might have to time your next lot of work accordingly. It is actually much easier to use than fiberglass resin ..I find..
A friend who assisted me a bit in recoring cockpit sole and transom re-instal had extensive experience in regular resin and never seen epoxy before... he says he'll never use fiberglass resin for his personal work again... of course I was footing the bill for what we were using so we'll see when it's his turn ;)

Ok interesting argument brewing hear.

Epoxy bonding strength the best by far 2000 PSI of strength

Vinnylester: Next best thing for bonding about 700PSI of strength.

Polyester: Least strength bonds at about 200 PSI

Epoxy is MUCH more expensive then Vinnylester or Polyester. It is thicker then the esters thus making it very slow to soak into the glass. I ussually soak it down and then go back later after it has had some time to sit. IMO there is NO reason to use epoxy in a transom replacement job IF you can get Vinnylester. The Vinnylester will give you the advantages of BOTH epoxy and polyester. The holding power is better then what they used at the factory so this is really a non issue. The other advantage of Vinnylester is you have a two day window of opportunity that you can get a chemical bond to later layers of glass. So if you run out of time after you get one layer on then as long as the next layer goes on withing 48 hours you DO NOT have to sand. The top layer of the Vinnylester will stay tacky so I ussually top coat but since you are probably going to gell coat after this is a non issue. Vinnylester is aprox. 145 bucks for a 5 gallon pail. Plan on using damn near 5 gallons. This will cost you aprox 350 or so in Epoxy at leaste. With Vinnylester you can adjust the pot life a little (not much but some). With Epoxy you have VERY limited window to get the material on as the stuff kicks by volume. In otherwords it will harden in the cup WAY before it will cure on the boat. When working with Epoxy you need to get the material out of the cup and onto the boat as fast as you can. Use a roller to roll out any air bubbles. If you want to go with Vinnylester and you can not find any then call me tomarrow and I can get some shipped out to you via UPS. You will have to get the MEKP hardeners local as that can not go UPS. Epoxy also has the advantage of being a LOT less smelly. So if you are doing this in a adjoining garage and you do not want a divorce that is your only hope. The hull and parts NEED to be at least 60 degrees for a good cure and bond. I NEVER mix up more then a quart of material at a time. It is hard to get any more then that out at one time.

To cut out the transome I ussually use a sawzall. Get a couple blades as you will find that different blades will work in different areas. Take the thing apart layer by layer. So only cut through the glass and take that off. Then the next layer of wood and so on. By taking off the wood the transom will not likely distort. It is when you go to bend the wood back in that you may have that problem IF the transom is curved like mine was. I just did a dry run with all my stuff like that first to make sure I knew what my and everyone elses jobs were, but also so that I could see if I was going to have a problem. If you have a lot of curve then you may have to curfe (cut slots) in the wood to help it bend eisier. Don't worry if you do, the paste will fill that up and it wil be PLENTY strong.
Back to cutting out the transome material. You will likely be able to get most of it out fairly quickly. I use a air gasket scraper that my brother had that worked the NUTS for getting the rest of it off. I then used a grinder with 36 grit to roughen up all the surfaces and get rid of the old tabbing.
I then glassed in the transom layers as per factory. When you take out the old glass save some and go to your supplyer and they will be able to match it up for you. If it is the thickly woven stuff then make sure the new glass has mat on the back of it. This will help a TON in bonding. If you can not get that then get some thin mat to glass in first, then the woven stuff, then matt, then the woven stuff again. Cut all your glass first and test fit it. Buy a pair of scissors that WILL get ruined and make sure they are decent ones. Home Depot has a deal for 2 scissors for like 14 bucks. These work well. Once you have everything test fit and ready to go then mix up some resin and paint all the mateing surfaces with resin. I just use the ell cheapo paint brushes that you get at home depot. I find the 3" brushes to be the most versatile but you may want to go with 4's or ever 6's for this job. Then have your micro ballon/cabocill paste and spread that on. You can mix up the micro balloon paste prior to adding the hardener so you have time to get everything set up. Then bolt everything in place. If you get that far this weekend you are doing well. I will fill you in with more info as you get there.

Oh ya make sure you try and work as CLEAN as you can. It is MUCH easier to keep it clean then clean it up after you make a mess. If you spill some on the floor then use you paint brush to get it up.

Jon

You may be lucky and the rot is only a few inches into the wood, that would save a ton of work, make sure you know the entire transom is weak before you jump in, you can patch from the inside also.

Audio,
One question, does polyester gelcoat stick to vinylester? My jobs have been filling in cutouts to change drives, gelcoating is sometimes required.
Gary

All very valid advice by Audio ... can't you just tell when someone is speaking from experience ;)

I've never used vinylester resin before so I can't speak to it's attributes but it sounds like a good go between from polyester to epoxy.

Gary .. I do know that you can use all the epoxy over polyester you want but not the other way around .. interesting question about polyester over vinylester.
I look forward to learning more !

S

Audio,

Thanks a TON! Lets say that the rot is all the way to the hull sides, will the paste and tabbing to the hullsides be strong enough? Also, how do you get the new wood to adhere to the outer skin of glass/gel? Do you simply paint the old glass and wood with resin or do you lay down mat on the wood first? I tried calling, but had a problem getting through.

See the nastiness...

Here are some pictures from when I did mine. I used Epoxy, and yes, it was expensive.

This was the old transom with a huge hole for the Volvo drive before I removed the wood from the transom.

I did as Audiofn did and cust the fiberglass all the way around then slowly chipped all of the wood with a hammer and wood chisels...

With the wood transom removed, I sanded the inside of the transom glass for a flat and rough surface. Then feathered the transom assy hole about 3-4" back. I took a flat piece of Birch 3/4" ply, covered it with glossy formica, waxed it then scewed it to the outside of the transom. After that I proceeded to start laying glass to cover the holes in the transom..

Once that was completed, I cut two pieces of 3/4" marine plywood to fit. Originally, the Donzi transom just fit inside of the stringers. I cut the new ply slightly larger and interlocked the new transom with the old stringers. I cut the old fiberglass off of the old stringers in the engine compartment and cut out some minor rot where the engines mounted. I cut two new 3/4" ply stringers and doubled up on the old stringers with the new wood. Filled in small gaps with epoxy paste made from west system HD filler (forgot the name). Sanded all rough edges and glassed in.

Minor cleanup and some Interlux 2-part white paint and ready for the Bravo and real power....

Kent, It looks like you made the transom thicker where the repair is. What is the purpose?

Transom is same thickness as original with maybe an extra layer of glass. Picture of the original is misleading.

Thanks Ken.

This is where OSO really shines. I'll get some pics and go from there.

Yes it will stick to vinylester VERY well.

Note about Paint. IF you plan on gell coating then you DO NOT want to use epoxy!!! The Gell is a polyester based paint and will react with the epoxy. If you DO you epoxy then you need to paint over it with Duratech BEFORE you gell coat.

Jon

Sorry you had a problem getting through.... Not sure what is up with that... Try me tomarrow.

If the rot goes all the way to the sides then you just keep digging. Personally if the rot is local or entire then I would replace it all. Even if it looks good it will still be wet and you will have a problem eventually. What you need to do is get all the wood out. You then sand any lips of glass that are left. When you are done with that you will fit the wood and all that I said in my prior post. Once you are done and ready to glass you mix up your paste. The Paste will be a pail of resin and cabocile or West Systems 401. Mix the powder in tell you get a nice thick paste that will stand up when it is troweled out. Paint straite resin with hardener in it onto the transom and then the wood. THEN take the mixed stuf and add the hardener and spread that onto the wood then clamp it how ever you think is best. This will be plenty good of a bond.

Jon

Thanks, I'm on my way.

I started taking my transom apart today. I got a late start because i got out of work 9 hrs. late...

One of the things I noticed is just how heavy duty these boats really are. No wonder they last as long as they do. I have the transom stripped except for the transom plates.

Audio, I agree with replacing the whole thing. It's not any easier to "patch" an area of the transom as opposed to replacing the whole thing. I think that this thread will help other people, so I will post several pics tommorow eve.

See ya. Bryan

I did this project 1 summer ago including the stringers to the firewall bulkhead. I did all the demo work and had someone do the new glass. It cost a grand and was worth getting away from all the glass work

I found when using West systems the way to keep it from "kicking" in the container is to cool the mix down with ice and water before and after you mix it. Just leave room in the cooler for "refreshments" :D :D Paul

Jaf however if you do that you loose the bonding characteristics. Also the colder it is the harder it is to get it to absorb into the glass as it will be thicker. To properly cure the boat, glass, resin, and any other material you are bonding HAS to be at 60 degrees. Just something to think about. The key is get it out of the cup as fast as possible. Then you will have LOTS of time to work with it as it does cure by volume.

Jon

See that... I just saved you room in your cooler :D:D

i recored my trans myself. i cut it out from the inside,ground out ALL of the old wood & delaminated glass, filled the old drive holes, built a layer 3/4" thick out of woven roving,mat&epoxy. then made 1" thick plates to go where the drives,trim rams & steering rams go & epoxyed those in. next i cut out nida core to fit the whole transom & bonded it in. last i layed up 1/4" fiberglass for inside layer. total of 2" thick and totally waterproof/rotproof....brick S house!!

You used NIDA Core for your transome? I do not know what to tell ya there bro but that is NOT a recommended use for NIDA Core..... :( :( NIDA Core has very little if any compresion strength.

Jon