mcollinstn

Taz,

You continue to sing the praises of BMaxes. If they're so great, then you oughta be able to help me with my friend's drives.

A pair of BMaxes.
Horrible trouble shifting them when new.
Once they started shifting good, one developed a bunch of end play in the stbd propshaft. 2 hours later, it blew the propshaft seal and ate a bunch of water (sprayed goop all over the engine compartmt thru the reservoir). Once that was fixed, the repaired drive had shifting problems. Some messing with it, and replacing a shift cable and it got better. Next thing was that both lowers almost fell completely off the boat, shearing all the studs except one on stbd drive and two on port drive. both lowers hanging with a huge separation from the uppers. New parts and ARP studs and helicoils. Both drives acted nicely. 10 hours no problems, then propseal went on stbd drive and dumped the lube. Needed some parts. After that, wouldn't come out of gear. Would shift nicely into gear, but not out, fwd or reverse. Had to kill the motor and rassle it into neutral by applying pressure and bumping the ignition switch (hotwired neutral switch). Made docking a very elegant endeavor. ANyhow, the shifting problem was still an issue on the stbd drive when right after the first card at Cumberland, the port propshaft broke off sending a 5 blade Hydro to the bottom.

Frustration set in and the next step was surface drives.
Resale issues killed that plan, and a pair of used drysump sixes was next on the list. The "promised" drysumps all of a sudden became unavailable (as they had been sold to a higher bidder after the sale was agreed upon). Now the advice is to install Imco boxes with torsion shafts to help the drives live better. XR's are being recommended, but I refuse to agree with these guys and am advising my friend to stick with the BMaxes if he insists on a Bravo based solution.

So the question is:
What is the deal with the crappy shifting and is there a trick to set them up so they WILL SHIFT? I haven't been in the drive to diagnose the shifting (they are currently in St Louis and I am NOT), but I am guessing that the fork is rocking or is otherwise work and is not providing a parallel lifting force. This, I am sure, I can fix. But I don't know if that is the real problem.. Comments?

In the meantime, anybody with a set of sixes (dry or wet), holler at me...

articfriends

iTrader: (1)

mcollinsten,i'm glad i didn'y buy b-max's,sound like they are a real pos,were these ones early ones or experimental or something?I can't imagine how they stay in business with all the problems. I push my bravo/xr based max machine worx hard,something breaks about every 100 hours but i'm abusive/hard on stuff,around here 100 hours is almost 2 years of boating,Smitty

eliminator219

I must just live right or something!! I've had my B-max drives on for two years (Blown Cat)and very little problems,had shafts also get loose, like most do (bearing wear) I tightned them and went about my business. Im sure that if I was to have the problems that your friend is having I would get in touch with B-max theirselves. I was given instructions concerning the Prop shafts,sounds like your friend bought some used drives somewhere.I dont know about your friend but I still have another year on my warrantees..Yes, they do have them!
I change oil every 10 hours just like I did on the Bravos.
I got tired of tearing the hell out of different kinds of Bravos and aftermart parts,still have a bunch of their stuff on my shelves,could not spend the kind of dollars that # 6s cost so I went with --NEW- - B-maxs and I'm glad that I did, so far..
Sorry to hear of your problems and I dont mean to get in your business but I have, and still do have a good relation with Dean and really dont like to see a good product bad mouthed..
Les
Eliminator 219

mcollinstn

Let's make something very clear here.

These drives have been worked on by Dean as many times as the warranty would allow. Then after the lowers fell off (cept for a couple of striped out studs somehow still holding them on), they were reworked by a reputable crew in St. Louis who did a good job making a "locator collar" and installing high strength hardware between the uppers and lowers to be used in lieu of the "ace hardware" grade stainless bolts that the drives were originally provided with. Dean has been/was consulted on all of the shifting issues and "has never encountered anything like this".

Perhaps you may wish to re-read my post with the understanding that I am not out to bash anything. I am looking for advice that will allow my friend to USE his boat instead of Haul it to other states so he can continue to bring it back in pieces. My post was not intended to stir any emotion. It was intended to solicit advice.

If you have some advice on how to troubleshoot the shifting problems, please speak up.

So far, our forum friend Taz had seemed to come across as pretty darn knowledgeable on the BMax drives. I believe I addressed my thread to him, but yes, I did put it in a public forum in hopes that others may have useful input.

I'm really really happy that you are captain of Dean's fanclub. I only met him way back at the Miami BMax rollout at the boat show. Nice enough guy. So far, though, he has personally worked on these drives and has given them back with a smile and assurance that they were "just right and ready to go" only to have them vomit gear lube and fall apart.

I'm not here to hurl a turd on the floor at Dean's pep rally.
I'm looking for specific tips and technical info. I've already told you that "Dean says he hasn't heard of this shifting problem and offers no guidance".

The drives are out of warranty. But the boat has missed more boating time than it has had running time due to drive issues.

Once again, I am hopeful that somebody will read thie thread and offer helpful advice.

I have no plans to attempt to sway anybody's decision on BMax, the Bravo Shop, or Dean himself. I have heard good stories about his Bravo upgrades, and good stories about Dean himself. This is not a slander thread.

Good day.

eliminator219

My mistake, I was unaware that Dean has thrown up his hands on the problem,even thou I find that hard to beleive.I just took it for granted that they most likely were some of the used drives that a guy from the west coast used for drag racing.Im sorry for mentioning my good luck with the B-maxs.
As far as being Capt. of Deans fan club, I dont know about that, even thou he and his wife have always treated me great.. True, Ron and Jeramy also have great knowledge of The B-maxs after all one races them and the other has a Machine shop.Im sure that they also have had some problems with their drives, I know they check with Dean on problems to the drives. Dean himself has a fifty footer with four of them on it,and a AO with 2 aircraft engines with B-maxs before that.
Once again, Im sorry that you are having so much trouble with them and I hope that you are able to get the answers that you are looking for..I myself can not give you any advise as what is wrong,I am not smart enough to fix major breakdowns so that is why I hire people that are when I have problems..If you need to talk to Ron Bender, (tAZ) I would be more than happy to give you his phone number, then maybe fools like myself that dont have the answers you are looking for will not get on your post.
Les

mcollinstn

Yeah, I guess this post has managed to offend the both of us, eh?
Keyboard based forums don't do a good job of conveying tone.

I wouldn't have bothered posting anything if the answer were as easy as calling the mfr. I hope that everybody on this board has enough sense to pick up the phone and give the mfr a call when they have trouble with their gear. Then again, maybe I shouldn't be trying to "third party" advise my friend since he has chosen to use others (out of state, no less) to take care of his boat's troubles (they are the same ones who last worked on his drives, so his choice is sound from that angle).

It did sound as if you were acting like we were a bunch of Ya-hoos who bought some trashed junk and then wondered why they weren't bulletproof. They were bought from Pier 57 new. They had been ordered for another boat, which they were never installed on, and they came with full warranty (which they have definitely needed).

As far as Dean throwing up his hands, I'm pretty sure I didn't say that. What I said was that he "had never heard of this problem" and was offering no phone guidance (per my friend's comment). I'm sure he would be willing to work on the drives on an hourly basis. My friend has no particular faith in Dean's attention to detail after the repeated troubles he has had, and the TYPE of troubles he has had (this is not necessarily MY opinion, but is the opinion of the man who wrote the checks for the drives, and for the insane bunch of freight fees all over the country, etc.).

And I never recognized you for a fool, Les. Personally, I don't think you are one.
But if you are hell bent to call yourself one, who am I to argue?

You may be right on one thing though... If I had called Bender to start with, perhaps you'd not be feeling so unfairly attacked.

I never knew this was such an emotional issue.

mcollinstn

And for the record, I am NOT attempting to steer people away from BMaxes. The boat in question is a 11,000 pound plus 42 Fountain/Scism (MTI) cat with tweaked 575's at around 675hp each. They run a high X and a 1/2" spacer (without which the water pressure drops).

I know of a 24' Cougar in TN with somewhere around 1300hp running one for several seasons with no problems. I know many others who have had no problems.

I am confident that the boat/motor combination is hard on the drives for some reason or another.

And I am happy for anybody who has good service out of their BMaxes...


sheesh, have I left anything out??? I feel like I am writing a disclaimer or something.

mcollinstn

Once again, since I have not been involved in the phone conversations with the "St. Louis guys" and Dean, I can only relay what I have been told by my friend, who owns the boat.

And what I have been told is that Dean "has never heard of the shifting issues" and has not offered to "make them right".

There is, however, the issue of having the St. Louis guys work on the drives and then gripe to Dean about it. Perhaps he feels that the "unauthorized improvements" that they did (to keep the lowers from breaking off again) may have waived his responsibility to make them work properly. BUT please understand that I haven't spoken with Dean nor have I listened to any transcript of a conversation.

But why would him offering to replace the drives be a "good thing"? They were new and they gave trouble. He went through them and stamped them "ready for action", and they gave trouble. They are closer NOW to being usable than they have ever been (with pretty significant modifications to the fastening and locating provisions between the up and low). To start over with NEW ones would require the same modifications all over again. Not exactly a big help. (massaging them to take care of the shifting woes would be nice though)

I am not making any judgements against, nor for, Dean or his products.
I simply have a friend whose boat breaks all the time, due to drive issues. He is hopeful that the latest recommendation will make his drives last (the standoff boxes with torsion driveshafts).

But to use the BMaxes with this "improvement", we still need to get them to where they will come out of gear (the one with no propshaft actually was shifting quite nicely, but it does no good when there's nothing to bolt a prop to). It truly does suck around the docks...

I had no intention of spreading bad BMax news.

Hey, Trout, maybe we need to sh!tcan this thread.
Last thing I need is to be the guy who started the trend that put Dean out of business. Heavens knows, my business (mfg of industrial tooling in general) is struggling right now and I would go nuts if somebody started some negative press about my company across the WORLD wide web...

mcollinstn

Oh, sorry.

This thread had gotten the "feel" of the OFFTOPIC forum (where Trout is the Grand Poobah.)

Since I am still hoping for some comments and direction on giving my friend assistance on his drives, I'll not delete the thread just yet...

** I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out why I have been "outed" as a badmouther. I thought I made it clear in the first post that I was still RECOMMENDING that my friend KEEP the BMaxes, as opposed to going with the recommendations of others (such as the man who builds the hull he is running, initials of RS, and the group in St. Louis - all of which are telling him to dump the BMaxes and go with Imco fortified XR's...).

WILDTHING TAZ

HERE I AM. READING ALL THE POSTS I STILL NEED SOME QUESTIONS ANSWERED. A POSSIBLE PROBLEM IS DRIVE MAY BE GETTING HOT. DO TO TO HIGH x DIM. WATER PICKUP HOLE FOR COOLING MAY NOT BE IN WATER DEEP ENOUGH. THIS WOULD CAUSE CLUTCH TO STICK FROM HEAT. YOU SAY SHIFTING PROBLEMS LIKE WHAT? NO SHIFT,SLOW SHIFT, ONLY SHIFTS WHEN IDLE IS INCREASED OVER 1000 RPMS? YOU SAY THE DRIVES ARE BEING WORKED ON BY A B-MAX MECHANIC. NOT SO! I AM THE ONLY AUTHORIZED REPAIR IN THE GREAT LAKES AREA. A LOT OF PEOPLE MAY SAY THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING BUT THEY DON'T!!!! THERE ARE ONLY 3 SETS OF ASSEMBLY TOOLS THAT MUST BE USED TO SET SHIFTING!!! I KNOW BECAUSE I INVENTED THEM AND MADE THEM. 1 SET IN FLORIDA 1 SET IN ARIZONA, AND 1 SET IN MY SHOP. EACH SET HAS A VARIATION FOR NEW OR OLD CLUTCH LENGTH, AND A VARIATION FOR GUARDER SPRING DIAMETER. SO YOU CAN TELL WHO EVER IS WORKING ON THEM THEY ARE FULL OF HOT AIR. AS FAR AS THE LOWERS SHEARING OFF I HAVE SEEN THIS BEFORE. CATS ARE GOOD FOR THIS. B-MAX OR BRAVO'S. CATS HAVE WIDE CENTERLINES ON DRIVES. WHEN MAKING TURNS AT TO HIGH OF SPEEDS THEY WILL SHEAR OFF THE STUDS. WE PUT 1/2 DIA. STUDS IN CAT'S FOR THIS REASON, AND USE RED LOCK TIGHT ON THE NUTS. IT'S ONLY COMMON SENSE THAT TELLS YOU WHAT WOULD CAUSE THESE STUDS TO SHEAR OFF. ( SIDE PREASURE )END PLAY IN PROP SHAFT IS DO TO BEARINGS WEARING AND LOOSING BEARING PRE LOAD. SIMPLE ONCE YOUR BEARINGS ARE BROKEN IN AND YOU HAVE PROP SHAFT UP & DOWN PLAY OR IN & OUT PLAY ITS SIMPLE TO FIX BY TIGHTEN UP THE SPANNER NUT 3-4 TAB LOCATIONS. NOT LETTING IT GO TILL IT BREAKS THE PROP SHAFT. RUNNING HP BOATS DOES REQUIRER SOME MAINTENANCE BY THE OWNER. IT'S NOT LIKE BUYING A 30FT SEARAY AND NEVER TOUCHING IT. THIS STUFF MUST BE MAINTAINED. WHEN SOMETHING NEEDS FIXED IT HAS TO FIXED! OR YOU ARE IN THE BOAT YOU ARE IN RIGHT NOW. I AM NOT BEING A SMART ASS ONLY TELLING YOU FACTS. SOMEONE NEEDS TO CALL & TALK TO ME. I WILL HELP THEM ALL THAT I CAN. RON BENDER 216-390-1330.