Question 2
 

Just curious why do some former SV boats run P-2, and some run P-3??? I would assume they all have 525's in them, some run the bravo and few run the #6's, I have always been under the impression that they use top speed via a formula to place boats in classes where they should be. I ask this because I remember "Stickerboy" having to run P-2 in a 24 ft Skater, in sometimes some big water. and never thought that was where that boat belonged. So what is the placement rule???

Good question, I thought that also when I read Gino's reply. I know Wahoo run class 2 (105mph) in OPA along with a few others.

A 24 Skater in class 2 :eek:

Some of the Older SV's won't run 105 or can't run it safely.

There really arent many older SV, so to speak as the class really started in 2002, When APBA had SV, SVL Twin then SVL
all canopy. In 2003 it turned SV with 525's and Bravo's. The thought being the #6 had too much parasitic drag to push a boat to the front, that is til Skater put them on, and made them work.

yes a 24FT skater!!! in Class 2 racing against 38 cigs with twin 1000 hp. But to give credit where it is do he always finished the race no matter how snotty the water and has moved to a Spec class as he always dream he would, Ryan has racing in his blood.

Ryan is now racing with the Pro Series guys next year? Is he getting a new boat?

I believe he is still racing with OSS, I will change the wording to Spec class. As not to confuse anybody with the Pro series.
Sorry .

We had a steep learning curve running my 24' in the P class.....I was made to run in P2 with stock 200's and never give a chance to run P3 or 4. No biggie. We learned. I am very happy to be racing the stock class now in OSS where you know what you are up against. We will be racing with the OSS again this season with a couple of other races thrown in. Thanks for the kind words Pete you know we take pride in going out there and running and finishing races....no matter the conditions.

The formula for placement in a particular Manufacturers Class per the 2007 SBI/APBA Technical Rules is:

Pitch X RPM X .01 divided by Gear Ratio divided by 12

To answer your question of older Super V boats running in P-3 or P-2, look at the following;

RPM.....Pitch...Ratio...SBI Calc Speed
5450......29......1.5.........87.8
5450......30......1.5.........90.8
5450......31......1.5.........93.9
5450......32......1.5.........96.9
5340......33......1.5.........97.9
5450......34......1.5.........102.9
5450......35......1.5.........106.0

A Mercury 525 EFI is limited to 5450 RPM. All of the older Super V boats running P-3 are running 29-31 pitch props. The older Super V boats running P-2 are running 32-34 pitch props. The ability of some boats to run the higher pitch prop probably has more to do with the model year of the 525 than anything. Older (2002-2004) 525’s have an average of 550 hp…newer models are running 565-580 hp. Better slip factors from hull design improvements on newer model boats are also a consideration.

The SBI/APBA speed calculation is based upon a 12% slip; obviously some boats have better slip numbers. The SBI/APBA Rules also allow the Inspectors to place a boat in a particular Class based upon their knowledge of the boat.

In P-Class the name of the game is acceleration. Look at the on-going discussion here on the Boards regarding P-6 and P-5 boats built specifically for the Class, the real crux is not horsepower…its acceleration…the ability to get to the maximum speed as quickly as possible without breaking out.

Most of the older Super V’s where originally Bravo equipped boats built for Super V when top speeds where 100-102. When the Super V speeds went up and they could no longer competitively compete with the #6 drive boats, they had no other place to race competitively except P-Class. Most tried racing in P-2, until it was realized that they would never be able to compete against blower motored boats with massive horsepower and acceleration. With a simple prop change, and drop in Class, these boats have the needed acceleration to compete against big horsepower blower boats and not exceed the maximum speed.

It’s just a matter finding a place where you can compete with a reasonable chance of success.

Currently, all the boats in P-3 are very evenly matched, some have better acceleration, and some can turn better, but in general on any given day, every boat in the Class no matter what engine/drive configuration is capable of winning the race.

The older Super V’s running in P-2 are aware that no one currently has built (or rigged) a boat for that Class with massive horsepower and acceleration. It is just a matter of time before somebody figures out what it will take…and build a better mouse trap. At that point I expect to see all the older (stock) Super V’s running in P-3

OK I understand that, sort of. Obviously you would break out of your speed parameters if you used a 32 to 34 in prop.

What I am wondering is whats is stopping a boat from running say P-4, with a propped down boat...

Ken your boat was brand new in 2004 as I recall at the first Biloxi race, besides the new fountains, the old Spiderman Skater is going on 3 years old and yours 4. Has technology really moved that far forward, or is it the price point to buy a new hull?? that elimnates a update, besides #6's. how much would you figure to rig and re-rig a new hull.

why do you say that??

Technology in Offshore has improved way beyond the original designs of the Super V boats that competed in 2002 through 2004. The original Spiderman boat (the Bravo boat) was highly modified from its original design, if I remember correctly it was DQ'd and fined by APBA for making unapproved bottom changes. That was when the F2 bottom homogulation rules where carried over to Super V...that part of the rules effectively disappeared when the LLC folded.

The other factor is the #6 drive. When the Spiderman boat pushed the top Super V speeds to 105 mph, the Bravo drives became unreliable (and unsafe) for competition. Also, there was not a big selection of props, and prop failures with their inherent safety (and repair) issues was a common problem with the Bravo drives.

To reconfigure a Super V boat designed and built for a Bravo setup, you have to take into consideration the weight of the #6drive as compared to the Bravo. To re-balance a boat after re-fitting it with #6 drives can be a very expensive proposition. The newer boats are built specifically for the added stern weight. The bottom line is no...refitting an older Super V with #6 drives and running the same horsepower is not feasible...you're better of buying a new boat.

As for propping down and running P-4...I don't know...I guess it could be done but with a 1.50 gear ratio you would have to run a 26-27 pitch prop and drop the X down to the max not to be all over the rev limiter...or change the drive ratio...I'm not sure if it is possible..but if it is....there is nothing in the current rules (other than the Inspector provisions) to prevent somebody from doing it.

Racing has...and will continue to evolve. You have to remember that a racing Class is nothing more than a way of creating parity between the boats that race in it. Parity can be controlled either by mechanical rules (spec classes) or performance rules (P-Classes). I expect that in the future we will see an evolution of implementing technology to maintain parity in the performance classes before we see mechanical restrictions. You can monitor both speed and acceleration with the GPS systems we currently have in place...it won''t be long before we evolve to using the GPS to further assure that every boat racing in a Class has an equal and reasonable expectation of being successful.

Pete on our 05 Fountain after buying the hull it cost about 100,000 to 150,000 to rig and paint our boat. Our paint job was 35,000 so go from there. We also had some help from our parts manufactures. This boat will fly in 08

Why was the homolagation rule put into effect for SV?? With Factory racing I can see it but not SV.

AS for the six conversion, Yes I agree buying a new hull would be cheaper in the long run.

AS for the #6 spiderman, that boat ran 112 mph out of the box, I was in Sarasota, helping out with the dial in proccess.
that boat should still be in the mix with the fountains. Not sure if they are off on set up, or just not intrested in playing at that level. Just the same the lucas oil boat that trumel set up could easily compete with the SV's.

Some boats run good with the 1:50 gear and some with the 1:35....the fountains like the 1:35 gear with a 31 hearring...when balanced correctly it will run....now with the #6's when we raced against them we tried everything that a bravo boat could do....but because the different gear ratio's you can run it was tough to compete with the #6's, plus I talked to David Knight after a few rough water races and he said they could never run the boat as hard as they did with Bravo's...they would never have stayed together...

So I would say the #6's have a benifit over Bravo's plus more gear ratios to choise from.

This year it was simple for us....we ran a 1:50 with a 31 and ran that prop in 6 footers or clam water....and went threw the drives once in the middle of the year and again before the Worlds....with no problems with the Bravo's

When the first Spiderman boat was pentilized in 03 for mover there strakes, I was under the impression there was a hymoligation rule for hulls....I could be wrong....

But these boats are getting faster and faster every year...
The Ultz boat was fast in its day....but today SV's are running there Kilo record speed in a race....

Look at a SV fountain in 2003 and look at the 42 today...completely differant.....

In the case of stock boats running in P-2, Wahoo ran in P2 and so did John A in his new stock boat....its a true 105 mph boat all day long...but put it in 5 footers and sure the 38 fountains will walk away from them or any 38 foot boat

And I thought the rule read in P-Class, what speed the boat was capible to run in the ideal conditions...not ruff water....

I don't know how fast Ryans boat was in clam water but put any 24' cat in 4 to 6 foot seas and there in trouble..

I don't think your going to see SV grow unless you see a bunch of 42 Fountains in it....Yes a Outerlimites comes out now...but how many racers are going to spend $600k for a Outerlimites SV....Thats why your seeing all the older SV's running in P-class....the Fountains in P-2 with 31's and the rest of us running P-3 with 1:50 with 30 to 31's, all the older SV's with this set ups are more closer to both top end speeds and acceleration times then any Spec class SV's with 3 differant manufactures running against each other...
and if you add the 38 Badboys SV with the 1:50 and a 30 you would see that boat also would fit right in with us

I think the P3-Class has the most potental of growing becasuse of the amount of older SV's with 525's and 38 to 40 foot open cockpit boats with bigger power...but the speeds are still safe for running in a open cockpit....in the F2 days they were running around 90 mph...plus there are at least 9 older Super Vees out there with lids and no lids...plus another 6 to 8 36 to 40 open cockpits boats with 600's to 900's in it that could run with us an as we sen in OPA and in Key West...any boat could win.....

The wahoo boat had 2.5 as did the other new boat plus having a lid. Ryan's was a open 24 with 200's.

The oL is not even in the same class as the fountains and Skaters and RD's Phantom would give it a run for its money.

Are the SV that run P-3 not capable of running 105??? or a 100 for that matter??

I know there are a few svl's that can run low 90's but they cannot sustain this in a race especially in rough water.

I agree in the case of Rayan's 24 why not run it in P-3....again I don't know what the top speed of his boat was in ideal conditions...

I also agree the O/L has a lot of R&D to do to get it to compete to the Fountains....I just don't see any more Skaters being built for SV.....just my thoughts..

Most older SV are not capible of running 105....

We had to go to 1:35's and a big prop and spend some more money on differant lowers to get over 105...but still had terrible accelerations.....
The 36 Gladiator is a great ruff water boat but in the clam it still only seen 95....they could probably if they wanted to spend the money get it to 100 along with us and the Phantoms....thats why we started talking about the new SV class that capped us at 100.....it gave the older SV's a chance against the faster Fountains....

but put all the older 38 Fountains, phantoms, badboys, and us and the 36 Gladator in 6 footers and some of us slower boats could easily run up front....instead of starting a new class...we just moved to P-Class and did it there and had some bigger HP open cockpit boats run with us....

I think your starting to see some good sportmanship in P-Class...becasue when I talked to Smitty and a few other Fountains, for them to move to P-3 would not be fair...they would have to prop down so much and there accelerations times would be so much faster they felt there were capable of the 105 speeds and a little faster...

Today...I really don't see any P-4 boats with there current HP to be able to run in P-3 and the P-3 teams able to move to P-2 and be able to hit those speeds....

Also curious, why run stock power?? Supposedly their are Hot ecm's available, or having a someone like JC juice up the motor?? I think the canopy boats have such a advantage over a open boat especially in rough water!

Pete,

Why run sock power?

With stock power in a P-3 Super V, we can be every bit as competitive as any other boat in the Class, no matter what engine/drive combination. We have speed, acceleration, and the safety of running as hard as we can in a canopy boat.

Why spend a gazillion dollars on some exotic engine when you have good, reliable power right under the hatch? We can get around 150 hours out of our stock power without a rebuild. Most already have a rough water set-up that includes a 30-32 pitch prop...so there's no need to invest any more in the prop program.

All-in-all, racing an older Super V in P-3 is the most inexpensive and most competitive Class in Offshore. That's why Gino and I have can't believe more of these boats are not out there racing.

Why these owners opt to let their boat sit on the trailer is beyond me....I know how much money they have invested...and not to get something out of your investment is...well...what would you call it?

I am not sure I follow you on this, if it protects the teams investment, there are teams out there racing 30 year old boats in P-class. I am quite sure they arnet the original owners.

And as you stated in car racing, the rules are set but thier budget is out of this world , Cant take a race car and make it a street car or pleasure car.

If I recall APBA charged the manufacturer's a fee for homolagation, is that right???

And if the manufacturer didnt hit the mold right the first time then refining the bottom to perform faster and safer is a must.
When the Yachts fountain went buy you could see its had some tuning done to the bottom. This is what advances the design as I am sure you are aware of.

In SV with the factory backing the teams its hard to compete, without the kind of backing. And if the boat isnt competitive, it is much easier to abandon the program.. As many of the big manufacturers have. And its just not possible for the small guys to do without some sponsorship.

Our cat was plenty fast enough for the 105 mph Class 2 in smooth water (with big blades it would run 118 all day), but in the rough we might as well have stayed home. The 38/35 Fountains and 40 Apache would just kill us, that's why we are now in a 38 Fountain. I don't like getting embarrassed so if you can't beat em, join em. As for why run stock power? Why not? It is the smartest why to go if the others in the class are also pegging their performance to everyone else in the class. In OPA Class 2, we have a gentlemans agreement not to start a check book war and it has worked perfectly. As a matter of fact, Smitty has helped Louie dial in his boat and offerred the same to us. (I don't think that happens elsewhere.)

When I say stock power, I am refering to Spec class, But there is a constant arguement on this board about MERCURY,
yet many are obviously running it. I thought it was cheaper to run someone else's motor.

Pete....yes you are right canopy boats are safer....but all the canopy boats are running the least HP....while some open cockpit boats are running from 650's to twin 1000's in our class, they weight more and have better acceleration....but are in open cockpits....None of us want to step up the power becasue of the bravo drives....right now in the Older SV's we all can hit 92 with about the same acceleration times....thats why any of us can win...as far as the open cockpit boats go...you seen in Key West the Cig and the TKO boats both run up front in our class, both were open cockpit boats....we also got beat by a old F2 38 Fomula with 700's in it at Cambridge by 2 seconds...

It will be up to the officals to decide how much HP is to much HP and should be moved up in class...right now we have a good group of racers, that are willing to run what they got...some may tweek here and there but in the end at 92 mph or 95 in OPA....were all right there.....

Pete some of us also choise to run our stock power and leave our seals on the engines becasue if anyone want to buy them to use in spec racing...then its a easy sell....

I think the Homoligations was a great rule....its up to the manufature to put out there hull and leave it for 3 years or so....all boats are then built the same and as Steve said they are equal...changing hull designs every 6 months to a year just makes boat obsulete to quick....F1 was a great example....you could run a older 29 Warlock or Fountain an they were just as fast as the newer ones....it made it easier to sell your boat becasue it was still compeditive.....

its great that some manufactues are willing to sink in a lot of money to make faster boats...but how many pleasure 42 Fountains look like the new Yacths race boat...
How many pleasure boats have there decks cut down like the race boats do....

I wounder how fast the Fountains, Skaters and Outerlimites would be if they left the same freeboard and decks the same as there pleasure version would be....along with the same bottom....changing the bottom of a boat to make it faster should be up to the manufacture before they come out with the hull...once its out...you should race what is being produced for the pleasure versions....

But you have already said that you cannot compete in SV, who would buy a boat for spec class racing if it isnt able to compete???

Pete...not the boat....the engines....I for one was going to sell my engines after the worlds and put in 750's and #6's on the Dragon and move up in class till I seen how much compititons and how many boats were coming out in 08

I don't think any older SV can run with the newer Fountains...and if you did buy a older one buy time you spent what it would take to even be compeditive...you could have bought a new Fountain...

Pete,

I think you hit the nail on the head. Under the APBA program, homogulation was not seen as protecting the investment of anyone. I recall that when the Spiderman boat was fined, Peter would not pay the fine to APBA...he preferred to divide the fine and pay it to the other teams in the Class. The program had the perception of being a cash cow for the LLC and a way of milking the manufactures for $5k every time they made a a change. I know of two manufacturers that would not build a race boat because of this program.

There might have been good intentions...but the execution of the program was just another nail in the coffin. You also have to remember that was during the time when GREED was king.

To be fair, I should point out that SBI/APBA currently does have a homologation rule for National and Factory series boats. To my knowledge, there is no fee required, and if you want to make a change, you need only to submit a written request/notification of the change. I have never heard of a change being denied under the SBI/APBA rule. When I added strakes to the bottom of the Phantom to help bring the nose down so we could see over the bow, I simply sent in a request and received a notification that my request was approved...that simple.

Then it would be safe to say, that although a rule is in place it really serves no propose, if you can make a change and just submit a request for approval. As we all know Fountain is a big supporter of SBI, and If his boats arent in the lead, he will see to it that things are corrected with the boat to put them out front.

I guess the bottom line here is if you want to run a spec class SV and if you dont buy a Fountain, you are losing a return on your investment.

And what class would that have put you in????

The idea was to put 750'S in it but tunn them down to 6300 rpms so I could race them all year...if it put me at 105 to 108 I would run P2 if it would run 109 or higher I would run P1 and pop up the rpms a little more...

and I don't see this being a SBI/APBA thing....OSS had only 2 SV's this year and they were Fountains....so if we take the same rules as OSS has...Reggie could change anything on his hull to make it faster any time he wanted...

and I don't see this being a SBI/APBA thing....OSS had only 2 SV's this year and they were Fountains....so if we take the same rules as OSS has...Reggie could change anyting on his hull to make it faster any time he wanted...[/QUOTE]

That sure seems like a lot of money would have been spent to move up one class, doesnt the Traffic light boat have 750's?? they run Class one!


Agree, This was not directed at any organization directly,
and Fountain working to make his boats faster, I truely understand that, Its just unfortunate that other manufacturer's dont place a big emphasis on a race program, but banner thier company around accolades of many years gone past.

I think it shows that Fountain has put in the most money then any other Manufacture has in Vee bottom boats and it reflects on how many SV race boats he is selling they have sold what about 7 or 8 in the last 3 years campaired to Skater and Outerlimits....

I only know of the 4 under the current design:
Miccosukee
Yachts
Predator
and King of shaves,

OL has two boats

And Skater has built 4, and Skater is known for Cats but his Vee bottom design has been on the mark as well!
Original Spiderman
Spiderman 2
Lucas oil
Honey party


No other Maufacturer has had a proven design that wins, year in year out!

Acually it was not going to cost that much at all....even if I only got 12k for each of my 525's with only 53 hours on them and say 12K for both ITS, I already had a sponsor set up for the #6 with me paying a little...

Yes Traffic light runs 750's in P1...thats why we would look at what speed the Dragon would run at 6300 rpms...I wanted to run all year with the motors and not have to mess with them...but also wanted the option to do some things with the C.G. with some speed runs with the motors wide open....

Thats just with the new design....
You had the 2 Shogren boats( or spelled somthink like that) and the Miccosukee boat that cought fire...

Plus with Skater your going back to the 1 st Spiderman boat that was what in 03 in Key West....till current not saying there is not other builders...look how many of them boats are compeditive today....

From My understanding, the 750 are pretty cheap to rebuild, as many have stated unless you use Mercury.

the OTC guys seem to do well, running against them, I dont recall them ever breaking out of their speed bracket.

The early Shogren boat were not from the same design as the current Yachts, Micco, etc Fountains has refined the aerodynamics with the cut down sides, as for the CAT killer, that is more of a engine test vehicle than a hull design, although I would guess they have to right on the bottom as well at the speeds it hits.

Again the Skater has always performed well, when Scot Conrad and Ken Bowen ran it the only way it was beat was when they had a mechnical failure.

Even Rick Trumel had the boat winning in Reggie's backyard.

Thats just 2 mph from the Kilo.

It wasn't stock

It wasn't stock, reliable, or at legal weight.....