Gordo, no i am not talking about the SC's...SCL's using the Merc 525's were going to have to pay to use them in 2004.

"Never underestimate our fans"...NEVER did that!...my point is there's not too many of 'em that give a rat's ass about all this...they are the ones with the $$$, now how can we shift that??

Joey,

I am trying to make salient points here to keep the discussion going but you make it difficult because you recklessly make charges not based in fact. You are responding without knowing what the facts are and you seem to be getting off on the number of thread views more than you are trying to help solve any problems.

For example, and as has been said over and over, we never penalized, or passed a rule which would have penalized Mercury Racing custmers. The "concept" of manufacturer surcharges was brought up in a meeting with Super V teams in St. Pete as a means to make up for the lost revenue from Mercury pulling out.

We explained the economics of the business to the Super V teams. We explained how difficult it would be to allow Mercury's equipment in without any sort of sponsorship and still provide the same level of product and service we had been providing for years. We also pointed out that allowing this would also cause other marine industry people to pull their support as well, thus causing an even greater loss of income.

This was an open discussion forum with our SV members and the vast majority of them AGREED that the surcharge was the way to go. Welling started out attacking in the meeting but by the end he expressed that our position was fair and reasonable. Then of course he felt he got screwed when we awarded Donzi the National title and returned to the rampage, lying about the outcome of the meeting and spreading his trash everywhere.

We had a similar meeting with the Super Cat and SCL reps in WHM's trailer after the St. Pete race. Again, no decisions were made. Everyone in that meeting said the same thing the Super V guys did about the concept. We actually then signed a socument stating we would not do that and the OSS BOycotter Rep signed the letter to saying the teams would show up and we all know how that turned out.

So your claim that this is what sparked the revolt just does not have a basis in fact. The revolt started when we brought GM into Mercury Racing's sandbox.

Much of what you say is difficult to decipher. You can talk about people standing on the sidelines and leaving the sport and going poker running. Joey, there were 88 boats in St. Pete. We had more boats this year than in 2002. We held our own during the worst recession in 20 years while cutting the number of classes in half.

Whether you want to admit it or not, the numbers declined only at the Worlds and look like they will in 2004 if something drastic does not happen, because of the boycott and the uncertainty it has produced.

The numbers have declined in Factory class for several reasons: the economy being first and foremost. Many Factory racers are opting to run in canopied boats rather than the open cockpit boats because all things like power and drives being the same, they are safer boats to race at the speeds we are going now. Mercury Racing's decision to abandon the 500 and our decision to go with them is another factor.

And Joey, if you could for one second, park your ego, you would see that you are in the minority. You mentioned grudge. I didn't but interesting that you that you did.

I still believe that the sport itself presents a tremendous business opportunity. It just needs to gather the real people. The good people. The smart people. The business people and the people with realistic expectations and views and then just go for it.

Perhaps "team franchises" and/or invitation only racing is the way to go to ensure everyone is on the same page and works together to achieve common goals. These members would simply agree to concentrate on APBA Offshore. We all would take a no internet pledge, approve a professional code of conduct and then do our own thing without worrying about what others do.

The men and women we would want are those who want to really race. Those who understand that racing in of itself is where the fun and glory are even if you are racing for second and third. Those who understand that real racing involves losing far more than winning.

There are enough people like that out there to make this work. Trying to work with people who stock up on cases of cheese to go with their whine need not apply.

And for the record, I have apologized, accepted blame, resigned, offered to leave, you name it on numerous occasions, even here as a matter of fact. You are either not reading and comprehending on purpose or on accident. Who knows.

Mike

Wrong. Ask SPEED Channel if we have fans. Why do you think they moved our shows to a far better time slot midseason?

Mike

once again...your right mike...i forgot, we're "NASCAR on the water"...you have to turn sponsors, manufactures, and racers away...just too many these days.

I have read this entire thread once and several posts a few times and here is what I have to say. I am only one small guy.....but there are probably others just like me.

After the Milwaukee races I was approached by a couple of customers that wanted to put a team together and asked if I would help sponsor and/or be willing to drive, throttle or crew for them and have been giving it serious consideration.

Yesterday they came by the shop to discuss it further. I told them I was not interested for the upcoming season, but would reconsider next season if the opportunity still existed and offshore racing was still around. They asked me what the hell I was talking about. We spent the afternoon reading everything we could find about offshore racing and discussing its future.

Joey, at this point you are doing more harm than good. We don't know each other, but out of respect for you, your accomplishments, the sport and others, I am not posting their comments. A little respect for the opinon of others will go a long way.

Mike A., if the LLC is setup to be a profitable business for you and your partners, tell everyone that upfront so they know and understand your motives. Stop tryng to make it look like the only reason you do it is for the racers if its not true. IMO, the CRE deal is a scam. There are plenty of ways to determine if engines are modified or not, take that expense away from the racers. Put an engine claim rule in place with a reasonable fee attached.

Sorry to say, but at the end of the day yesterday this is one group that has decided to stay on the sidelines and watch the fallout. It was a tough decision for me as I have participated in the local classes and have always wanted to take the next step given the opportunity.

Good Luck Gentlemen, you have a long way to go and not much time to get there.

Rod

"And Joey, if you could for one second, park your ego, you would see that you are in the minority. "

let's remove your opinion from that statement....and where are all the F2 boats that raced in 2000 and 2001??...humm,,,yeah a few went to SV...where did the rest of the racers go??where are their boats??not racing with you...

not many other motorsports where you can be a pro your very first race with zero experience...but it's also one that finds their veterans racing back at the regional level after they have had a taste...riddle me that one batman!

Mike:

I'm thinking there are certain people that would rather have a pint of your blood than accept you openly admit you made some mistakes. You've certainly done more good in our sport than bad and you have apologized more than once for the things that could of been done more diplomatically. There are racers and potential racers that like to rant and rave on how things should of / could of been done. I think it's a perfect exit strategy from the sport because they're either scared or broke. It's like a little kid that pitches a fit and runs to his room because he knows it's his only chance not to get his a s s beat. Admission of guilt is what I see from a select few. If the shoe fits wear it my brothers! BH

"I think it's a perfect exit strategy from the sport because they're either scared or broke. "...you would like to think that.

"It's like a little kid that pitches a fit and runs to his room because he knows it's his only chance not to get his a s s beat"...no,, i was the kind of little kid that would ask for another with a smile and walk it off later.

I hate to jump back in before reading every word, and as much as I hate to say it Joey has some valid points, with his help we should all realize that nothing really has changed, sure some teams have left, sure we are conversing about direction, but Nothing has really changed. All the problems are still here and all the same people are with or against, which really means we have had NO progress at all. For example: Joker still supports Mike, Joey still Does not. You see there will always be this stand off, sure Mike A did good things for the sport, some will argue that both ways, personally I think Gene Whip did some great things for the sport, as well as some others and the LLC rode out the wave, rides over guys, time to swim out and catch a new wave and see what your really made of, and maybe that is what you are trying to do, well at least I hope so.

I'll give you an example, a new US person becomes president and the economy goes great the next day, do any of you real genius's think a President could fix everything that is screwed up in a nations economy in 1 day, if you do, you move over to the LLC side of the equation, they need you.

Big Joe is just trying to ensure the people in control take the responsibility for there actions, and the LLC has been pretty good at also blaming others. Face it you guys did some pretty stupid stuff, St. Pete Donzi Decision was one of them, and there were similar decisions made in F2 in Marathon, but we do not have to get into that, you just need to understand that high profile decisions sometimes will come back hard on you if made without any detailed documentation to back them, especially if sometimes the rules state otherwise.

You can never make everyone happy Mike A, but the sponsorship is often not the majority, so what to do, I'll tell you since you asked Joey, always do what the rules say, period, and have the chief referee without the business influence decide the rule outcomes, heck you should never even be in an on-site decision making meeting, you should be out partying it up with the sponsors, well I am sure we all know where this paragraph is going.....so no need to proceed, thing is, don't get down on Joey for wanting the truth, we all know he definitely is not trying to hurt the sport, we would all love to race against 20 boats per class, and I know he wants to.

NASCAR, NASCAR, NASCAR......you'll never do it on this path, never. So maybe just try to make things fun and work on your organization skills, to this day, most venues are a cluster FU[K, half the time the wrong teams get the trophies, maybe if you started to get the simple things right, it would help the LLC regain some credibility, it can't be that hard, the regional races seem to be able to get at least that part right at the race site.

Sponsorship, I do not even want to touch this when it comes to the LLC, just tell me that you have none, because besides Speed channel vs. Outdoor learning channel, there really isn't that much of a difference between racing in the great lakes and racing in the LLC, so please tell me you really do not have any because the Great Lakes is non profit with about zero sponsors and they put on races very comparable to the LLC's.


I could go on and on, and please understand that I hate this he said she said sh!t, I am tired of typing, so it ends here, I could go on and on, good and bad towards the LLC on each of these comments, just understand there is a huge problem and not enough Good to overcome it, time for a road-map to recovery, businesses do them all the time, you mentioned surveys and the such, If you do not have enough info now, you never will, suck it up, take the results, put an action plan together and move forward already, dam...enough!!!! what does it take, a poke in the eye?

I could go on and on, just try listening to the complaints and then maybe the complainers will listen to you..



JK

JKK,

I have heard plenty. I have said more than enough. You are right. It is time to let the chips fall where they may. I hope you and Joey are happy with the results.

Mike