2009 Thor
10-20-2009, 11:35 AM
#31
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10-20-2009, 09:05 PM
#33
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Wasn't trying to hate on the guys Nordic. My apollogies if the post came off "that" negatively, it wasn't meant too and in retrospect perhaps could've been worded better. Just trying to clarify a couple of things, and certainly wasn't trying to piss on the parade so to speak.
140+ is impressive for any single engine small boat, and that at the end of the day is all that matters.
Congragulations on the #'s.
Steve, a Stoker is a cat, not a tunnel vee or whatever you called it. You are equating a "cat" with two pointy things in the front, and not the actual bottom of the boat. They are both air entrapment hulls, both have center pods. Hence the comparison. The other reason for the comparison was because someone said that was the record for a single engine cat. I was simply pointing out that the record being referred too was a "Bravo" record, and it had to be higher than that, as this example of a playboat (running a Bravo) has run 141.
Again it wasn't meant to take anything away from this guys Nordic. Running 140 with a single motor in a cat that small is a testiment to the boat, the driver, the setup, and a pair of balls that clank.
Is that to demean my opinion or qualify yours? I've been on here for about 3 days now. Forgive me for not running out and getting a membership just yet. Jesus..
RD
140+ is impressive for any single engine small boat, and that at the end of the day is all that matters.
Congragulations on the #'s.
Steve, a Stoker is a cat, not a tunnel vee or whatever you called it. You are equating a "cat" with two pointy things in the front, and not the actual bottom of the boat. They are both air entrapment hulls, both have center pods. Hence the comparison. The other reason for the comparison was because someone said that was the record for a single engine cat. I was simply pointing out that the record being referred too was a "Bravo" record, and it had to be higher than that, as this example of a playboat (running a Bravo) has run 141.
Again it wasn't meant to take anything away from this guys Nordic. Running 140 with a single motor in a cat that small is a testiment to the boat, the driver, the setup, and a pair of balls that clank.
Is that to demean my opinion or qualify yours? I've been on here for about 3 days now. Forgive me for not running out and getting a membership just yet. Jesus..
RD
You are incorrect. A CAT (short for catamaran) is known as a picklefork deep tunnel offshore type boat, center pod or not. The Stoker, which I am very familiar with as a former outboard drag racer, is a vee bow, shallow tunnel, low profile, inshore, modVP tunnel. The boats have very little in common, except differing forms of air entrapment. It is a fast boat and has an efficient air entrapment hull, but it is not a cat. Ask Al Stoker if he considers his boat a cat. He will say no. If you do talk to him, tell him I said hello. He's a sharp guy. I raced Mirage River Racers. Even though they are pickleforks, even calling them a cat is a misnomer, because they are inshore low profile "tunnels", which is what 99.9% of us (including Al) call them. I've also owned several Shadow tunnel vee bass boats (same bottom configuration as Stokers), and am a good friend of the former owner of the company, Jay Cox. In the 30 years I've known Jay, he has never referred to his boats as cats, because they aren't. Brad Collins (former Mirage owner) never called his boats cats either.
Regarding a membership, you are coming on here, negatively critquing a very nice engineering and performance job with 7 posts. You're not getting off to a very good start.
Here's a Stoker "SST" aka Stoker Sport Tunnel (Al's name). Here's an MTI CAT. Maybe you can see the difference. Maybe not.
Steve
Last edited by Steve Zuckerman; 10-20-2009 at 11:00 PM.
10-21-2009, 04:08 PM
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Steve, I tried.. I even wrote a nice post or two offering apollogies for the post coming off negatively to try and keep this thread on track. Impressive 140 mph boat) but your relentless. Soooo...
Stevo.. Your arguing symantics here, but I'll play along.. So in your words you believe the Thor to be a cat, but the Stoker not to be.
A Cat as defined by you being a a tunnel OFFSHORE type boat. That being said you consider the Thor to be an "offshore" boat?
Seriously? Out here here they're considered lake boats. Nobody buys a Thor (or most any other cat with a center pod) with the intent of pounding around in the ocean with it, at least not where I'm from.
1 boat - two tunnels one center pod
1 boat - two tunnels one center pod.. Differeng forms of air entrapment?
We're not talking about Stokers.. The thread was in regard to a 140mph Thor, and subsequently a portion of that boat (I brouhgt up regrettably) the hatch ram system.
Your trying very hard to "qualify" your opinions on things that are completely irrelevant. I once knew a hooker named Charlotte, but that has nothing to do with what we're talking about either? If your qualifying all that on the bottom of the boat? Rest assured they are both tunnels with center pods. As it applies to a speed record I'm not sure i they would be in the same class as there is a considerably size difference. Being that I don't know of any sanctioning body actually running a "bravo speed record" though the point is somewhat moot. The "records" are usually claimed by people that have just gone out and run insane #'s.. I don't believe they are actually "recorded" / sanctioned by anybody.
That's all tit for tat though Steverino.. .
I questioned the engineering of one tiny part of the boat and you flipped your lid. You are relentless.. So fine we'll have the discussion now.
If you think anything about that hatch ram system is "well engineered" then you need to have your head examined. There are fairly basic principals at play here, and it's mind boggling (and very telling) to me that you can't see it.
The original hatch ram system attaches directly to the engine hatch via a piece of angle bolted to the hatch. When the hatch lifts the assy is in "compression" and when it pulls down it's in "tensile" and makes for an incredibly strong setup (in relation to a hatch pulling up at speed) This also applies to the person whom brought up the large fountain engine hatches with a single ram.
Now follow me here genius.. Because this really isn't all that complicated. They took the original piece of angle, and loaded it LATERALLY, no longer in compression or tensile. Weak link # 1. This will allow movement. Then they loaded that up with an "arm" (yes that's an actual engineering term fruitloop) that's probably 12 inches or so long judging by the pics, then attached the other end to a hatch ram that has literally zero side to side stabillity..
So lets get into the actual specifics Steve.. What could possibly go wrong with that whole program? Well lets say your running at 140, and you run across some cross wind, or even a temperature differential (hot spots and cold spots on the water), let say you even run across some little side wind, doesn't much matter. Lets say that any of those circumstances create even a 1/2 PSI of vacuum on the front half of that engine hatch (very, very possible)
The hatch itself is what.. 4 1/2 long by 6 1/2 - 7 feet wide? Well lets divide that by 2 so that only HALF the engine hatch (front half where vacuum would most likely be created) is in play.
2' x 6' for round #'s.. PSI = Pounds per square inch. 1/2 pound per square inch.. So you take (this is only HALF of the engine hatch mind you) 24 inches multiplied by 72 inches which gives you a grand total of 1,728 inches.. Now we're using a differential pressure of a 1/2 pd, so we divide that by 2.. Which equals 864 pounds of lifting pressure on that engine hatch.
Now in a traditional setup that's not that big of a deal. You can hang a ton of weight on a hatch ram in tensile. They won't be able to move it one way or the other under those loads, but to maintain it in a down position is no problem. Even the angle in tensile you could probbaly hang the whole boat off that piece of angle with no problems in direct tensile..
But that is not the case here.. It's loaded laterally, and has 12 inches of leverage (arm) and is secured to a hatch ram with no lateral support.
Let me make this even clearer for you.. Take a piece of angle, put a 12 inch bar in it and bolt it to something as seen here, and just walk up and push the end of the bar up and down. (How much effort do you think this will take to move the end of the bar?) Being a machinist that's around metals all the time, (qualifying?) I could whip you up a little test assembly, but off the top of my head.. I'd wager you could move the end of that bar up and down 1/4 - 1/2 inch with minimal effort. That is the scenario here.. Probably 50 - 100 lbs and you have all kinds of play in the setup. (I'm going to come back to this)
Now put it in a real world scenario, and you have 864 lbs.. Well you can divide that by 2 because there are two of them.
That setup isn't good for 432 lbs on a good day.. And that's the REAL WORLD scenario your in, if only 1/2 pd of differential pressure is generated. So what happens if we even generate a 1/4 psi.. Well we go back to that piece of angle with a 12 inch rod sticking out of it. We apply 216 pds to that rod, and guess what it moves quite a bit. What happens when that happens on the boat Steve.. The hatch comes up Steve, the hatch comes up....
Now when your hatch "peeks up" for a second you can throw your 1/4 and 1/2 psi's right out the window.. Now you got problems.
It's easily fixed (for the 2nd time now) by either attaching the rams back in tension to the engine hatch, or adding a 2nd piece of angle to that bar, to create a box, which takes it out of lateral loading again.
So forgive me Steve for not buying into your "well engineered" post.
Now who knows, maybe the guy will get lucky? Maybe he will never impart on a situation that even causes any pressure differential what so ever? I kinda doubt it, but maybe who knows?
What I do know is that for less than 10 bucks in material, and a dollar worth of screws, he'd never have to worry about it again. That was the intent of the information Steve.. It wasn't to talk trash on his boat, it was to say "Hey, you got yourself a 100+K dollar rig, for 10 bucks you can solve a potential problem."
I certainly can see the difference.. Your example has nothing to do with what we're talking about. The Thor has a center pod, the Stoker has a center pod, an American Offshore has a center pod, most every west coast cat has a center pod..
Maybe you can see the similarity? Maybe not?
Well I dunno about that Steve.. that's post # 11, and with it I pretty much just proved that your an idiot.. (with facts and simple logic)
I'm sure that picking on the newbie routine works out for ya every now and again.. But on the flipside..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvft9Dd8S0w
In short Steve maybe I'm not your avergae newbie? LOL This whole boating message board thing isn't exactly new to me.
Using your post count as some sort've online muscle though? (qualifying opinions with a post count? WTF?) Weak Steve... Just weak.
RD
RD,
You are incorrect. A CAT (short for catamaran) is known as a picklefork deep tunnel offshore type boat, center pod or not. The Stoker, which I am very familiar with as a former outboard drag racer, is a vee bow, shallow tunnel, low profile, inshore, modVP tunnel.
You are incorrect. A CAT (short for catamaran) is known as a picklefork deep tunnel offshore type boat, center pod or not. The Stoker, which I am very familiar with as a former outboard drag racer, is a vee bow, shallow tunnel, low profile, inshore, modVP tunnel.
A Cat as defined by you being a a tunnel OFFSHORE type boat. That being said you consider the Thor to be an "offshore" boat?
Seriously? Out here here they're considered lake boats. Nobody buys a Thor (or most any other cat with a center pod) with the intent of pounding around in the ocean with it, at least not where I'm from.
The boats have very little in common, except differing forms of air entrapment.
1 boat - two tunnels one center pod.. Differeng forms of air entrapment?
It is a fast boat and has an efficient air entrapment hull, but it is not a cat. Ask Al Stoker if he considers his boat a cat. He will say no. If you do talk to him, tell him I said hello. He's a sharp guy. I raced Mirage River Racers. Even though they are pickleforks, even calling them a cat is a misnomer, because they are inshore low profile "tunnels", which is what 99.9% of us (including Al) call them. I've also owned several Shadow tunnel vee bass boats (same bottom configuration as Stokers), and am a good friend of the former owner of the company, Jay Cox. In the 30 years I've known Jay, he has never referred to his boats as cats, because they aren't. Brad Collins (former Mirage owner) never called his boats cats either.
Your trying very hard to "qualify" your opinions on things that are completely irrelevant. I once knew a hooker named Charlotte, but that has nothing to do with what we're talking about either? If your qualifying all that on the bottom of the boat? Rest assured they are both tunnels with center pods. As it applies to a speed record I'm not sure i they would be in the same class as there is a considerably size difference. Being that I don't know of any sanctioning body actually running a "bravo speed record" though the point is somewhat moot. The "records" are usually claimed by people that have just gone out and run insane #'s.. I don't believe they are actually "recorded" / sanctioned by anybody.
That's all tit for tat though Steverino..
.
Regarding a membership, you are coming on here, negatively critquing a very nice engineering and performance job
If you think anything about that hatch ram system is "well engineered" then you need to have your head examined. There are fairly basic principals at play here, and it's mind boggling (and very telling) to me that you can't see it.
The original hatch ram system attaches directly to the engine hatch via a piece of angle bolted to the hatch. When the hatch lifts the assy is in "compression" and when it pulls down it's in "tensile" and makes for an incredibly strong setup (in relation to a hatch pulling up at speed) This also applies to the person whom brought up the large fountain engine hatches with a single ram.
Now follow me here genius.. Because this really isn't all that complicated. They took the original piece of angle, and loaded it LATERALLY, no longer in compression or tensile. Weak link # 1. This will allow movement. Then they loaded that up with an "arm" (yes that's an actual engineering term fruitloop) that's probably 12 inches or so long judging by the pics, then attached the other end to a hatch ram that has literally zero side to side stabillity..
So lets get into the actual specifics Steve.. What could possibly go wrong with that whole program? Well lets say your running at 140, and you run across some cross wind, or even a temperature differential (hot spots and cold spots on the water), let say you even run across some little side wind, doesn't much matter. Lets say that any of those circumstances create even a 1/2 PSI of vacuum on the front half of that engine hatch (very, very possible)
The hatch itself is what.. 4 1/2 long by 6 1/2 - 7 feet wide? Well lets divide that by 2 so that only HALF the engine hatch (front half where vacuum would most likely be created) is in play.
2' x 6' for round #'s.. PSI = Pounds per square inch. 1/2 pound per square inch.. So you take (this is only HALF of the engine hatch mind you) 24 inches multiplied by 72 inches which gives you a grand total of 1,728 inches.. Now we're using a differential pressure of a 1/2 pd, so we divide that by 2.. Which equals 864 pounds of lifting pressure on that engine hatch.
Now in a traditional setup that's not that big of a deal. You can hang a ton of weight on a hatch ram in tensile. They won't be able to move it one way or the other under those loads, but to maintain it in a down position is no problem. Even the angle in tensile you could probbaly hang the whole boat off that piece of angle with no problems in direct tensile..
But that is not the case here.. It's loaded laterally, and has 12 inches of leverage (arm) and is secured to a hatch ram with no lateral support.
Let me make this even clearer for you.. Take a piece of angle, put a 12 inch bar in it and bolt it to something as seen here, and just walk up and push the end of the bar up and down. (How much effort do you think this will take to move the end of the bar?) Being a machinist that's around metals all the time, (qualifying?) I could whip you up a little test assembly, but off the top of my head.. I'd wager you could move the end of that bar up and down 1/4 - 1/2 inch with minimal effort. That is the scenario here.. Probably 50 - 100 lbs and you have all kinds of play in the setup. (I'm going to come back to this)
Now put it in a real world scenario, and you have 864 lbs.. Well you can divide that by 2 because there are two of them.
That setup isn't good for 432 lbs on a good day.. And that's the REAL WORLD scenario your in, if only 1/2 pd of differential pressure is generated. So what happens if we even generate a 1/4 psi.. Well we go back to that piece of angle with a 12 inch rod sticking out of it. We apply 216 pds to that rod, and guess what it moves quite a bit. What happens when that happens on the boat Steve.. The hatch comes up Steve, the hatch comes up....
Now when your hatch "peeks up" for a second you can throw your 1/4 and 1/2 psi's right out the window.. Now you got problems.
It's easily fixed (for the 2nd time now) by either attaching the rams back in tension to the engine hatch, or adding a 2nd piece of angle to that bar, to create a box, which takes it out of lateral loading again.
So forgive me Steve for not buying into your "well engineered" post.
Now who knows, maybe the guy will get lucky? Maybe he will never impart on a situation that even causes any pressure differential what so ever? I kinda doubt it, but maybe who knows?
What I do know is that for less than 10 bucks in material, and a dollar worth of screws, he'd never have to worry about it again. That was the intent of the information Steve.. It wasn't to talk trash on his boat, it was to say "Hey, you got yourself a 100+K dollar rig, for 10 bucks you can solve a potential problem."
Here's a Stoker "SST" aka Stoker Sport Tunnel (Al's name). Here's an MTI CAT. Maybe you can see the difference. Maybe not.
Steve
Steve
Maybe you can see the similarity? Maybe not?
with 7 posts. You're not getting off to a very good start.
I'm sure that picking on the newbie routine works out for ya every now and again.. But on the flipside..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvft9Dd8S0w
In short Steve maybe I'm not your avergae newbie? LOL This whole boating message board thing isn't exactly new to me.
Using your post count as some sort've online muscle though? (qualifying opinions with a post count? WTF?) Weak Steve... Just weak. RD
Last edited by RiverDave; 10-21-2009 at 07:00 PM.
10-21-2009, 07:00 PM
#35
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I'd like avoid this ongoing arguement 
& get back to the thread & ask Nordic1 a question. I understand this is the motor out of the Rage. I saw the vid of the 114mph pass. If I remember, it was running a B1 labbed 30. What gear ratio? Was the drive -2? What rpm was that turning @ 114? How did you get it to keep still at that speed?
& get back to the thread & ask Nordic1 a question. I understand this is the motor out of the Rage. I saw the vid of the 114mph pass. If I remember, it was running a B1 labbed 30. What gear ratio? Was the drive -2? What rpm was that turning @ 114? How did you get it to keep still at that speed?
Last edited by 90mphRAGE; 10-21-2009 at 07:26 PM.
10-21-2009, 07:10 PM
#36
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Nordic1, if you don't mind me askin a question as well. What turbo setup did you use?
Anymore pics of the engine bay? Water to Air innercooler etc?? (I'm presuming it's down on the left?) I promise, I will not say anything else about any setup etc.. even if I see something. Just curious to see the boat is all. I actually regret even bringing up the hatch things in retrospect.
RD
Last edited by RiverDave; 10-21-2009 at 07:12 PM.
10-21-2009, 08:49 PM
#38
Chris
Gold Member
I agree..
Nordic1, if you don't mind me askin a question as well. What turbo setup did you use?
Anymore pics of the engine bay? Water to Air innercooler etc?? (I'm presuming it's down on the left?) I promise, I will not say anything else about any setup etc.. even if I see something. Just curious to see the boat is all. I actually regret even bringing up the hatch things in retrospect.
RD
Nordic1, if you don't mind me askin a question as well. What turbo setup did you use?
Anymore pics of the engine bay? Water to Air innercooler etc?? (I'm presuming it's down on the left?) I promise, I will not say anything else about any setup etc.. even if I see something. Just curious to see the boat is all. I actually regret even bringing up the hatch things in retrospect.
RD
In post #16 of this thread, Nordic1 gave the link to the company that did his turbo setup. If you go to that link, and scroll down to the picture of his engine, you can open that link and see more pictures.
In reference to the hatch on Paul's nordic, I completely agree with the physics of what you are saying.
I think the problem came in the delivery of your message.
It would probably be more politically correct to say that you felt that the lateral supports holding the hatch could be a serious engineering concern, instead of calling them "Hokie"
A person of your obvious intelligence, should know better than to use derogatory slang in pointing out perceived weaknesses in someone or something. Ref: "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie.
While most probably unintended, your original message came out quite harsh. Your later message, directed to Steve, is technically correct in reference the hatch supports, but delivered in a manner that is so nasty, that it makes makes the general viewer cringe.
Probably not a good way to start a relationship with the others in this sandbox.
Hope things get better,
Chris
Last edited by CB-BLR; 10-21-2009 at 09:06 PM.
10-21-2009, 09:01 PM
#39
Chris
Gold Member
The cost thing is a great question.. I would give the company in post #16 a call, and ask... or since they are local to me, I can ask, and then give you a call.
I would think that the turbo setup would be easier on an outdrive due to the fact that it probably doesn't produce as much low end torque as a supercharger, but builds boost more gradually.
In cars that I have built with both turbos and superchargers, the supercharger motored cars seem to be quicker, but the turbo cars seem faster.
I guess that all depends on setup these days though.. what with variable computer controlled waste gates and such.
Chris
Last edited by CB-BLR; 10-21-2009 at 09:04 PM.
on here he will help us out...
