We actually talked to Chris about Cig vs Outerlimits hull, he recommended to stick w/ Cigarette. I think it was the older step OL hull he suggested to stay away from. Im not sayin Sutphen boats arent great boats because I believe they are, but if theyre better boats than a Cigarette, how come its not know by the performance boat world? Are they a great secret kept hidden from the world by the Sutphen owners? Sounds like personal preferrence to me. Your very lucky to have the opportunity to run in so many different style boat hulls!

Now your not saying a cigarette is better in rough water than a cat, are you?

I think we need to see a certain cafe finished a little earlier then next spring with a nice set up BBC's and dry pipes. Then it will be eating sutphens and sh!ting formulas not to mention pizzin out the remains of those rxp's
-Mike

I think hes saying that if he wanted all out speed, he would buy a cat. But he likes the full cabin, bathroom, and all the other ammenities for his kids. The Cafe is a great handling boat that will run through 4 to 5 footers with ease. Not a race boat, but will run with any Sutphen in the rough.

A 32 Skater w/ 700's and #6 ??? Please....we do have our limits!!!! Just comparing like boats.

It is like kreed said if I was looking for all out speed and no cabin etc I would look into a cat. To be honest I have never been on a cat in rough water but if you offering ride let me know. And for the record I did not start this comparison this comes from the Sutphen guys on multiple threads over weeks

I read that he preferred rough water capability over speed or he would have bought a cat.
This would infer that a cig v is better in rough water than a cat, just clarifying.

I'd love to take you out for a ride sometime, let me know.

Dan the funny thing was I never made the comparison between Sutphen and Cigarette, that was you and 30 Sutphen that start all the talk about Sutphen being the best. Anyways I am not saying Cigarette is better then everything else. Bit I still say they are great boats that demand respect!

Stainless I need a comparison :coolcowboy:
-Mike

Maybe it was a Kreed or Sick. Yes they are a great boat and have the respect. Now the cat subject is a whole different thread!!:D Put in simple terms...........SKATER NATION!!:D

Mike, I'll take you guys out for a ride, pm me and we'll set it up.

Stainless lunch on me for the ride much appriciated just for the offer. As for the CT. river run Il be there and hope everyone makes it. I think all this will be blown over after we eat pizza. but its funny bs'n
-Mike

You guys run with Steve and you'll become a believer. Maybe I'll jump on with you guys to add some educational information.:D

Sounds like a plan stan. May need a motion ride for comparison. I think you need a ride in old resin bomber. Just give me till spring.
-Mike

MAn A total personal attack from both of you. You guys should look in the mirror. Dogging my windshield has nothing to do with SUTPHEN that was a custom (aftermarket) windshield.

ITS FUNCTIONAL: Cig owners wouldnt know much about that because they are all so wrapped up being VANE that the only reason most buy a certain boat is because of what others will think of it.

The rest of us, Sutphen, formula, fountain, kriptonite,apache, carrera, etc etc all buy boats based on how they perform and how they suit our personal needs.

I dont hate BBC engines I just dont want to be a russian contortionist to work on my boat. I LOVE OB boats.

I love Sick stingers carrera.

As for the inference that I started dogging CIGs thats BULLSH&^. I have NEVER gone into the Cigaratte forum and talked sh*^ , but a Cig owner came into the sutphen forum to talk SH&^.


So whos jealous?

We dont even get bothered buy it at all, because we buy sutphens for ourselves. We beleive they are the best V hulls ever produced!
Fountain owners think they are, apahe owners think they are and yes CIG owners think they are.LOL

As for being number 2 Our boat designers helped to win a Freaking world war with our basic design charicteristics.

We have won numerous RAICING titles with a 10th of the boats in competition compared to Cigs.

I have never said one personal thing about ANY OF YOUR BOATS.

Honestly this debate between whos boat is number 1 or number 2 is stupid. With all the horrible things going on in the world you guys are getting pissy about something stupid like this?

I said it before and I will say it again. Sick and I were messing around. He came in to Sutphen and started throwing stones ( JOKINGLY) which really didnt bother me or anyone over there, but it started us messing around. We PM'd eachother and talked about Breaking eachothers balls in Good fun and I said you know that some CIG owner will get all BI&^chy and he laughed.


We both new it would happen, cig owners cant believe anyone could not worship a CIG after all thats the only reason most bought one was to show off.LOL



On top of it your arguing with a CIG fan. How stupid is that, I actually like CIGS. I DONT LIKE THE WAY CIG OWNERS ACT Like thier Crap doesnt stink!

One of my favorite boats in the world was the manhattan express. It was a cig. ( Which I have stated before)

If you guys think it bothers me one bit that you dont like sutphens, outboards, or even my goofy big windshield your out of your minds. I could care less.:kiss:

I bought the boat because I like it. Because it does what I need it to do, like carry two couples, and 4 kids to LI and back in rough water at a good speed. Does it have to be the fastest? NO and it isnt. If I wanted that I would have bought a cat and put 1050's in it.

So lets not take this crap so serious. Lets all be freinds and lets not talk shi^ about eachothers boats.

I LIKE MY WINDSHIELD:eek:


I am glad you guys like your boats but you gotta relax a little.:drink:

Alright no more stones being thrown, but I have to answer this question for Richies sake.

Why are there so many more CIGs than sutphens: Its very simple. (Marketing) Richie only needed to make so many boats to make a good living, and he could only make so many boats and keep the quality high. So when he would get the orders filled he wouldnt push boats.


Hed be in the shop building them instead. His orders came in easily and he never really had to market his product very much.

His interest was in making a great boat and keeping the family legacy alive. Not making a huge profit.

He sounds like a democrat

I have to say I am always in for ball breaking or a good debate, but you need to go back and reread your posts not only on this thread but every one that you posted in that has the word Cigarette in it. These posts are full of attacks, stero types and insults. Find any area where I say Suthpen is not as good or is bad or anything negative except the windshield comment. As a president of a boating club I can't think any of this generalization about Cigarette boats and there owners is good PR for your club. Just to clear some things up on who I am as "cocky Cigarette owner" I love my boat, but it is 17 years old and definately not the fastest boat out there(no matter how much power I throw at it) it is not the nicest or the baddest. I am not even saying they are the best boat out there (although many believe they are) but they are my favorite. Like it or not they are the bench mark in the industry. I like all boats and love talking about them and going out but there seems to be this chip on your guys shoulders when it comes to Cigarettes or at least their owners as you have stated. I do however stand behind the statements I have said about my boat and how it rides and runs and I am more then happy to run along side you boys just send me PM when heading out and I will do the same. :ernaehrung004:

If volume made a difference we would have all bought BAJAS>. Think about that.

hey Richie are you reading this? a democrat? this guy better keep looking back, because i have a feeling you just might put a bounty on his head !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:bsflag:

Mike, if you ever get one of your boats running , I have a proposition for you. We will start at Pt. Judith and run to Block Island and whoever losses
has to kiss the winners transom. Let me know when you are ready. ERNIE

Wow..... A lot of **** slinging .........

Simple fact of marketing, if Sutphen had spent dollar for dollar on marketing for the past 30 years this would be a different story.

Give me a choice between a 1988 gun or a sut & a ball peen hammer.

No wrong,....Enjoy your boats fellas....... I enjoy mine.

i say my 21ft small block chevy sunrunner is faster than a cig or sut in any water condition lol :evilb::lolhit:

Show me ONE example of a personal attack!

NOT ONE!

Let me explain to you what a personal attack is: It is when some one attacks you persoanlly or your possesions personally. For me to say something about cigarette boats or owners is a generalization.

Now saying Richie sounds like Democrat is a PERSONAL ATTACK.

You wont find me saying anything about Don arnow, you or your boat, its paint scheme, its engines etc in any thread anywhere anytime.

As for Cig owners being COCKY Most of your Cig brothers wear that as a badge of honor. They are happy if you tell them they have a big head or are cocky and openly admit it. At least the ones I know. So that wasnt so much a dig as a truth.

Lets look at the score though: You and KREED both talked crap about my windshield, my engines, The builder of my boat personally. So who is throwing stones and needs to look at thier posts again??

If you look at any of my previous posts on this topic anywhere they are all in good taste and are all in good fun. All are attached to other posts that explain I am joking around with someone. Or ribbing someone but that I like cigarettes in general.


What my order of boats is should mean nothing to you.

When I was looking into new boats after my last sutphen I honestly looked at allot of boats, cigarette models were at the top of the list to look at and both you and KREED know that.

After looking at many many MFG's I chose to go back to SUTPHEN. After having 3 of them I knew them well and I like the fit and finish better than anything looked at. I really liked apache's too but the cost to quality ratio was not so good. THey comand to high of a premium for me.

I could have bought a beautiful top gun out of florida for $33,000 that was owned by a building contractor I knew that was going belly up but there wasnt enough room in the cockpit and It had BBC merlin motors in it that were jam packed into the hull. Many guys would have loved that boat but for me it was just not practical.


I wanted my,rough water hull, lots of seating, bimini top, OB and plenty of room. I got it in a SUTPHEN.

It doesnt bother me that you attacked those thing s to be honest I am pretty thick skinned. This all turned out exactly as I told Sick stinger it would though.LOL

Theres really no hrad feelings at all on my part. I'll drink a beer with both of you guys anytime. I'll even do it out on your CIG!

A 33PP in the rough over any 35ft Cig. Its a fact.

OH SH&^ !

Now its ON!

Any other makes wanna get in on the action, Apache, fountain excalabur, welcraft scarab etc this could get UGLY.:party-smiley-004:

Inner rage your always talking sh&^ JUst cause you have the fastest boat on the forums. WTF

you always gotta rub that in our faces?:kiss:

Ernie Your on! Hey Boxer lunch is on me either way when we hit block next year. Only reason I have the Cig is due to you Thanks again.
-Mike

I have heard for years that the PP is a great rough water boat but never seen one run nor been in one. Adam your boat is definately faster then mine (90's right?) But with that being said I will gladly go out and run with you. I am sure you will be at the run this Saturday so hopefully it is rough and we can have agreat time. By the way I thought Apache made the best rough water boat.:drink:

No offense to Ritchie it was meant as a joke but I think it funny that you guys think being called a democrat is an insult.

Okay this can go for ever so first I don't dislike your boat I actually think it is pretty cool but I know the windshield thing came up on another thread so I thought I would throw it at you. And no I am not into outboards but who cares what I like. But when you come out with jet ski comments and 65mph this and that and all Cig owners are like this and that you gotta take some s#%t...right, you know having thick skin and all. I will say it again I don't think my boat is the best or even close but I was just defending my boat over it is not as good as Sutphen in rough water, it does not have as good of construction and rigging as a sutphen talk. Oh yeah and know I guess it is not as good as a PP either. Actually you guys have convinced me to get rid of my boat and buy a Sutphen or a Power Play only question is which one is better???:evilb:

I think we do this 30 Sutphen, 302Sport and Tsunami bring your boats to the Pavilion run on Saturday, Kreed and I will be there with our ****ty flat bottom poorly rigged boats and let's see how we all do by day end. Then we can all come here and talk it up, What do you say. 30 Sutphen one more thing I am sorry for the personal attack if you where offended!

30ctsutphen......This all started for me a few months back with your following comments: " Cigs are like A$$holz, everyone's got one" comment. Reading back the post, that came out of no where. No one had said anything negative at this point. Maybe it was a joke, but you didnt even know us yet. Then, " you Cig guys get a swelled head." Again, didnt even know us or get to know us before judging us or or boats. You automatically put us in your "arrogant Cig owner group." "We used to laugh at older Cigs cause they were so slow(something close to that) while beating them on our jetskis ." Again, knowing we had "older Cigs", did you think this stuff was not some sort of attack?? You had just met us. Ball breakin like that only comes from friends who really know each other. So right away I knew you had an opinion about Cigs and their owners... But you picked the wrong two guys to have this opinion about. We are really just 2 guys who grew up together and always liked fast cars/bikes/boats ! Two guys who like to drink in the sun, beat the $hit out of our boats and laugh at all the stupid $hit we did the day before on the water.(and try to remember it all) Thats it. Its too bad you thought we were arrogant Cig owners before knowing us. So I felt personally attacked months ago, but I let it all go....To me, you seem to be a passive/agressive guy. You can throw all those stones, but we have gone over board because we tell you we dont like your windshield???? Please. And we bought these old Cigs for other peoples opinions? Come on. Oh, and Jealous? Of what? Listen, we get along with everyone, we love all boats. We do this sport because of beer and bikinis !!! But you need to get over your notion that all Cig owners are arrogant a$$holes, because its not true.. Maybe if you hang with us or take a ride in the Cafe, you change your mind about us and our boats.

NAh I wasnt offended at all. actually, I just wanted to point out the fact that you guys had FANGS showing.LOL

We were just throwing jabs.

Hoenestly when it got oover here from the sutphen thread it was more something between me and sick playing around. I had however PM'd Sick and told him that some Cig owner would get al upset about it. It was kinda more of a an I TOLD YOU SO thing really than anything else.

I am planning on being at the Pavillion run, if I can get a little wiring things sorted out before the weekend.

So you Mighty Cigs, can take a stab at my Stuphen,W Fishing Motas, and the big windshield and low HP for bragging rights.:eek:

I hear theres gonna be some RXP's there too.

Just Kidding :kiss:

should be a good fun event I have NEVER been in a poker run before. I usually hang out and watch the boats go by. I am more of a hang out and socialize guy than a speed demon, I leave that for the drag strip.

None of that was directed at you guys. It was just banter. I cant remember how it got started back then but it was based on a comment from someone else. It had nothing to do with you guys really. Honestly I didnt think your Cigs were that old.

I never said Cig owners were arrogant a$$holes Just arrogant.LOL and MOST I know wear that as a badge of HONOR. They like to walk around and act like they are a cut above.
Maybe you guys are different but Come on you dont see it?
Cig guys in general dont tend to be just a little more flashy, A little more aggresive at trying to be in the limelight etc?

Expensive wraps and paint schemes Now compare that to sutphen guys , most have thier stock paint schemes still, And are a little happier to be back in the shadows until race day.

We like to be the underdogs!


I actually said Bellybuttons and A$$holes and it is taken out of context here I believe I may have been backing up Team Tsunami on that one.

Either way it was a JOKING Generalization. No need to get all bent and start personal attacks. Which to be honest I am just pointing them out, they didnt really bother me. It also came 2 days after I PM'd you guys and told you I was looking at Cigs as a possible backup if I couldnt find a sutphen I liked. So that should have told you right there I was Joking around with you guys.

Do you remember that PM about the CIGS?

I havent ever seen a CIG with outboards that I can think of and you guys know I am a Diehard OB guy.


Nextly dont EVER take one of my posts seriously especially when I am throwing stones back in a discussion. I like all boats and Get along with everyone!

I have lots of freinds who have owned or do Own Cigarettes. They constatnt are talking smack about SUTPHENS and other makes like they are inferior.

So I have allot of practice at breaking down the Cig line just trying to compete with thier crap. They are such die hard brainwashed "Its cig or nothing" that It drives me NUTS.

Anyway no hard feeling here at all boys, never was I was just havin fun.

Rut Row!!! Another "fact" being thrown out there! I dont think we have to worry about this Power Play on Saturday. Its broken.....again. :drink::drink:

Well I only know a few Cig owners, and their all good guys. I have never run into the type of Cig owner your describing. Dont forget, Ive only been in this "family" for a year now. So I havent "learned" to be arrogant yet! Hahahah! I actually had a 27 ft Carrera for the last 2 yrs and love every minute of it. Im not the guy that went out and spent 300K on a new boat and looks down on everyone else, Im the guy who has to do all his own work so I CAN afford to own a Cig. Please accept my apology about your Mr Magoo windshield. That was said out of defense, and was alittle too personal. Its not my preference, but its not my boat. As you said, when I was lookin for a Cig, if I couldnt find one I liked, I would have bought a Sutphen ! I really love the Boxer boat, but thats WAY out of my price range. See you Saturday for a drink at the bar on Frank !!!:lolhit:

Wait whoa franks buying??????
-Mike

How about no more arguing:argue:
:flag: Instead we all just enjoy what we have let's face all are stuff is old
:ernaehrung004: I will buy the first round on Saturday
:nhl_fight: so no more fighting
:circle: Instead we all get along and go raise some hell
:traurig001: Just think about the poor guys who had to sell there boats
:cool-smiley-027:Hopefully I will some of you guys on Saturday and 302Sport if your rig is down I am sure one of us will have room for you

Yeah, why are you guys arguing? We all know that Fountain builds the fastest, smoothest, safest, best-handling and most dependable boats on the water. It says so on their website! :drink:

This should be good for another 5-6 pages.

Hahaha.....Thats ALL true, but it's that beak I can't get past ! Here we go again IV !!! You goin on Saturday? Apparently, Sickstinger says Franks buyin drinks AND lunch! Gee, thanks Frank!