Re: Rules 2006
 

hmmmm..

So, I make more then 100 drive units per year. Am I to believe they will allow my drive units in the racing classes?

Cannot produce a competitive advantage. This is abstract as is something reliable an competitive advantage or is it purely speed related performance advantage?

What is a competitive advantage?

Re: Rules 2006
 

anything that doesn't say mercury on it... :D

Re: Rules 2006
 

RIK, I believe the class wants everyone to run the same equipment so there is as equal racing as possible. Yes it is Merc. #6 drives that everyone uses. Possibly if your company offered a sponsorship package to OSS and a truck with a contingency package to the racers at the conception of OSS they may have all been running your drives. You make a great product. Keep up the good work.
MD

Re: Rules 2006
 

Merc just started the contingency $ and they have been the only show in town for the past 10 yrs. Others would have to ease into that role the same as they did.

OSS conception is a totally seperate issue as it was and is a Merc only show from the start. No one else was even given consideration.

Believe it or not the race trailer is there for their $$ sales opportunity more so than the service aspect. Nothing is free in that thing.

First I would just want to be allowed in the race. Then if a actual service need arises we can handle that from that point onward.

Same equipment. Well they all cannot be just Arneson so that would never work with that premise. It also would not allow Pat to have any race customers either or others.

We need all the choices made available to the racers and let natural selection take its course.

Else, make it one boat, one engine, one out drive, one color, etc..

Sounds kinda boring right.

Do that and let the boat manufacturers scream bloody hell for a while.

Re: Rules 2006
 

Guys:

Re OSS rules, there is a lot of baloney delivered here by people who are not affected by these rules at all, or who don’t even bother to read the rules which are clearly posted on the website. So, by the way are the names of the BOD of OSS. Click and ye shall see.

Technical Rule Changes: Are usually effected on a class level. Class votes unanimously on an issue, hands it to the board, board rubberstamps it, unless it is a decision that negatively affects the whole organization. It’s simply a checks & balance thing. If a class would vote to race two blade props only, next year they would race two blade props only.

Parity Issues: Not effected on a class level. Any parity decisions are made by a secret committee of racers. It’s secret to avoid any undue influence. If a boat runs away from the pack consistently, weight is added. If a boat lags behind consistently, they may even race with less than the regulation weight. The idea of this is to keep racing exciting and the fans (who are often cited as the final arbitrators of all things in racing ..) happy. Handicapping has been around race sports since they existed. Weight is added to horses and dogs. Gasoline and RPMs are restricted on racecars, and so forth. And if you don’t like that, pay the money to race the Xtreme classes where you can go as fast as you can afford.

“Mercury Show Only.” Baloney. Our boat for instance runs what we call a “gipsy drive” a mixture of IMCO and Mercury. Allowed. If a class votes to run Mercury only, or IMCO only, or Vortec only, or whatever, then that’s it. There is a tendency for more and more votes going to Mercury only, and that is because Mercury stands consistently behind their product and their truck stands at the racesite, and they have a contingency program that keeps racing affordable. Work with the racers and the racers will work with you. These are the racers voting and making their own decisions, and nobody else. If you don’t like their decicisons, rally the racers to change their vote. Nobody has ever gone to an OSS class and told them: “From now on, you can only race Brand X.” It’s always been the racers who have made that decision for themselves. The Weissmann drive on the Peppers boat was grandfathered in for their old hull (so was their slightly exotic engine ..) --- new hull , no more grandfathering, adhere to the rules voted by your peers.

If I’d be a drive manufacturer who wants to be part of the OSS show, then I would approach a class, show them the merits of my product, tell them how I would support the product at the racesite, and try to get their vote. It's a process called marketing. If you want to sell a product into OSS, your core customer is a class.

Bottom line: The rules at OSS are made and changed in a democratic process. If you like that, then work with the process. The growth of OSS is testimony to a working process. If you don’t like democracy, then you have other alternatives. I’ve heard, North Korea still needs a sanctioning body.

Re: Rules 2006
 

Again, you have to talk to the racers on that. Previously, the rules mandated "production units." The "100" rule was added, because some demanded a definition for "production unit." So they got their definition. Be careful what you ask for, you may receive it. Also, making 100 units doesn't get you in a class. It makes you eligible for consideration. You still need a class decision.

Re: Rules 2006
 

Rik.....I hear we will see your drive racing in OSS on the Travis boat in supercat as it has now been grandfathered in.....so thats a start.

Pat.... come on now..... Pappers was trying to use your drives that tehy weren't even using?????? They got them granfathered on there old 36' even though they hadn't raced with those drives on there boat in something like 8 YEARS!!!! They have had IMCO / BRAVOS on there boat since after it was crashed in Biloxi forever ago!!! SWince then they've been sitting in a shop somewhere, NOT ON THE BOAT. They should have no problem selling these drive to someone for a pleasure application if they need the cash......same as all the guys with the illegal skegs on the 6's.

If either of you guys wanna get your foot in the door at OSS you could become a series sponsor at a VERY resonable price. Please email me if you are intrested and we can discuss some options. [email protected]

PS most LABOR on the Mercury truck is FREE on site.

Re: Rules 2006
 

Without the Mercury truck and their great gang, Typhoon wouldn't even get off the trailer, let alone off the dock.

We love you, Mercury! Selfish love ....

Re: Rules 2006
 

Ryan, even though that boat's some 14 yrs old, it's good to hear for Travis.

From a business point of view it will be wiser to know you are allowed in before you sponsor a series that blocks your access.

Re: Rules 2006
 

[QUOTE=Ryan Beckley]Rik.....I hear we will see your drive racing in OSS on the Travis boat in supercat as it has now been grandfathered in.....so thats a start.

Pat.... come on now..... Pappers was trying to use your drives that tehy weren't even using?????? They got them granfathered on there old 36' even though they hadn't raced with those drives on there boat in something like 8 YEARS!!!! They have had IMCO / BRAVOS on there boat since after it was crashed in Biloxi forever ago!!! SWince then they've been sitting in a shop somewhere, NOT ON THE BOAT. They should have no problem selling these drive to someone for a pleasure application if they need the cash......same as all the guys with the illegal skegs on the 6's.

If either of you guys wanna get your foot in the door at OSS you could become a series sponsor at a VERY resonable price. Please email me if you are intrested and we can discuss some options. [email protected]

QUOTE]

I didn't know that, do they give you racers any kind of discount on the hardware or is it at market price?
Mike

Re: Rules 2006
 

Mike
I believe it is less tham full retail but not positive.

Rik
Well it's a start that Travis will be racing, Didn't Bacardi run your drivs last year in the OSS on the 46'? Right now Teague is THE tech guy he would be the place to start as fas as making your products OSS legal. The markiting oppurtunity with OSS is a good deal , to market Arneson to pleasure boaters and racers. Send me an email with your email addresee and I'll send you more info.

Re: Rules 2006
 

Is Teague a retailer for Arnesons? Is he a retailer for Mercury?

Re: Rules 2006
 

Teague is definitely a retailer for Mercury.

Re: Rules 2006
 

David Scott ran SBI in 2005' (and previous years) with the 46' Skater and Arneson Surface Drives as there was no unlimited class in OSS previously.

My point is "Throwing $$$ at OSS" is not the solution. First there has to be a door open then the marketing can start. If you are implying that I should throw $$$ to open the door then please state the obvious.

IMCO paid to have their drive units allowed in OSS. How much??? That is their business, but it takes the free enterprise out of it.

Re: Rules 2006
 

Re: Rules 2006
 

Steermanure. Big pile of steermanure. Nobody has ever paid anything for having their drives or any other equipment approved by OSS. Either come up with the proof or withdraw the statement. I've already explained the process of how to get equipment approved. If someone is serious about having their stuff approved, then they should follow that process.

Re: Rules 2006
 

I was looking for the reason for why my Weismann #6 dry-sump drives are not allowed on the new boat. They were ok on the old boat.

pat W

Re: Rules 2006
 

I had given you the reason. And the reasons are clearly spelled out in the rules for anyone who's able to read. I will not repeat them again. The Stancombes know the reason also.

Re: Rules 2006
 

We made every single dry-sump drive the same for all of my customers. The parts are interchangible. You can verify that from Coabella or Matt from TNT. We made a casting for the #6 type and the #6a were billet because of the rule changes back in 96 we did not make a casting forit. The pump parts were the same. We produced over 50 units before we were banned in 97. This is a production drive.

In the rules, I see 10 rules made directly at my company.

Where did you give me the reason?
pat W

Re: Rules 2006
 

Ryan - you are correct about us using Arnesons on the 46. However, in the OSS Extreme and Superbiat Unlimited classes, we can run any drive that we desire. I also have a new pair of Shifter's drives & gimballs that we could have used but never did. They are for sale cheap now.

Re: Rules 2006
 

I personally would really like to see Arneson Surface drives used in all boat racing including OSS. I think the Taboo SV would race OSS if he could and I think many other teams would choose the Arneson drive if they could.

Ben

Re: Rules 2006
 

I agree Ben. Not only have they been "bullet-proof" on my 46, they have been backed-up with outstanding factory support since day one.

Re: Rules 2006
 

It seems there's been a lot of drastic changes since Ft. Lauderdale a few years ago, eh Bertel?

Re: Rules 2006
 

No one is saying its not a good product! Bertal is saying that the racers have shown no interest in running the product. Its all about the racers voting on what they want. And the racers seem to be happy with the # 6 drives now. Multiple drive options just cost more money for the racers. Options mean testing and testing means more money. I think the racers spend enough as it is.
MD

Re: Rules 2006
 

So you're saying that Pat or Rik's product are more expensive than Mercury and Mercury gives you better support. I beg to differ. There wouldn't be a #6 w/o Pat and his crew. And Arneson has been making bulletproof product for almost thirty years.

I understand parity in our type of racing is important. We all went thru the Factory class years. Races in our sport are in it to win but many have the knowledge and know-how to try new things to get an advantage. Changing the rules every time someone other than the almighty Mercury comes up with something is the reason you see fewer and fewer boats at races.

If I had the choice today and was building a ne boat. It wouldn't have a black part on it. MY $.02

Andy Bloom

Re: Rules 2006
 

Shifter is his own worst enemy. He makes a part, the boat wins with it time after time, then everyone else needs to step or step aside. Then when someone else builds a better mousetrap, everyone needs to switch again.

It's cheaper to stay with one mousetrap, even if it's not the best, everyone is using it. Hence parity.

Otherwise, run what you like in the OPA races.

Re: Rules 2006
 

I'm sorry but if you think that a different outdrive would require more than what is required for a top team currently in testing then you don't have a grasp of what separates a top team from another team. TEST is a four letter word.

Take SCL for example. Is one to believe that all you need is a 368 Skater with SSM#6's and you are the winner? Or is it the team that has done their homework the best and at the same time has the talent inside the boat to put it to its potential that wins the race?

Please remember everyone was running a Bravo or a Bravo copy in SCL and SV until they finally realized that the maintenance was costing more than the initial cost of a SSM#6 drive unit.

This was a sticker shock to say the least in the up front cost to the racers in propellers and drive units. For comparison I can sell them a pair of drives for the cost what a single SSM#6 drive cost. (Same propellers as the SSM#6 drive unit so no bas tard prop argument please)

In doing so, I obviously will not have the retained capital to throw at sponsorship as others have and will not have a big semi rig, but at the same time a racer will have more of their $$ in their own pocket to spend where ever they desire.

For a support truck all I need is a white rental van with a banner at the races. Purchase some Ice from Mr. Haggin, some BEER from Mr. Scott and sit back and watch a race and supply the coldness.

Oh, looks like at least one racer has voiced an interest in running Arneson Surface Drives in this forum alone.

Rik

Re: Rules 2006
 

Here is a picture of our Weismann #6 dry-sump drives. There seems to be some confusion.

The ones that peppers owns are identical.

We are the original designers and manufactures of the dry-sump #6ssm and #6a ssm dry-sump drives. We also made the #4 ssm dry-sump as well. We still produce them today.

The Peppers team is spending $XX,XXX to change the drives and gimbals out for Merc #6a ssm dry-sump.

I am sure they could have put that money to good use intead of wasting it.

Peppers wanted to race my drives on the boat and they still do.

pat W

Re: Rules 2006
 

So what did Mercury change on the Dry-sump #6 that makes it differant than the Weismann drive, other than the decals. Sound like a money $$$ thing to me.

RIK, i agree with your last comment, all you would need to bring to the races would be a cooler and ice. First, I've never seen a properly set-up Arneson break and second all the bearings, seals, etc. are available at any local bearing house. So maybe a small box of parts and some sun sceen would get you thru a good weekend of racing.

Ron P, What you are talking about is advances in technology. That is what racing is about. I understand that when new technology becomes available that it takes money to upgrade. When Mercury came out with the "X" and "XR" drives I never received a letter from Mercury saying "Since you have been running our HP500 Factory package please let us take your old Bravo 1 some $$$ and we'll supply you with the new more reliable version for the upcoming season". Nope never heard that.>>>>

Even more interesting is that the Arneson drive has been around for twenty-some years with no major changes in design from original.

As a racer I understand that you have to keep the parity to make a good show and keep interest. But technology is what makes racing exciting. The racers who don't have the long buck are the one who try new things to keep up with the more established teams. Hence why we are not running stright inboards anymore.

Andy Bloom

Re: Rules 2006
 

Actuall the drives are different in more ways than just decals. I don't know all the details just the the Merc is a little simpler.

Re: Rules 2006
 

Maybe Shifter can chime in with the non proprietary info.

Re: Rules 2006
 

I'm quite certain that you never have to worry about purchasing either of the aforementioned items from Mr. Haggin or myself ... :drink:

Re: Rules 2006
 

Ryan - I agree with you but Pat was the real innovator here. Without his efforts with dry-sumping the #6s, everyone might still be running wet units. It gets back to competition. Without competition, the end result is almost always less development and higher prices. That is why I am so opposed to one vendor for anything.

Re: Rules 2006
 

Oh yea, I understand the Weismann orginated the dry sump equipment along time ago, I was just stating the the Mercury and weismann drive weren't exactly the same.

Re: Rules 2006
 

As I've stated here and even more people have in other places. Motorsport’s always will need competition and competition helps businesses and the business model.

com•pe•ti•tion

• The act of competing, as for profit or a prize; rivalry.
• A test of skill or ability; a contest: a skating competition.
• Rivalry between two or more businesses striving for the same customer or market.
• A competitor: The competition has cornered the market.
• Ecology. The simultaneous demand by two or more organisms for limited environmental resources, such as nutrients, living space, or light.

Mercury is a GREAT company and they make great products but I personally feel that Motorsport’s in general can always grow with competing products. I think companies like Arneson, Weismann and others are good for the sport as a whole.

Re: Rules 2006
 

This discussion is for the birds. What's so hard to understand?

1.) The rules of OSS originate with the OSS racers in a democratic process.

2.) The technical rules of a class orgininate with the class in a democratic process.

Granted, this is a concept that might be alien to some, and some may have (as parts of this discussion attest) a hard time grasping the overall concept. But it is what it is. The rules are there and they will be upheld.

If you don't like the rules, change them. You can. Get the unanimous vote of a class, and by next year they'll be able to race your drive. At OSS, the racers decide. I know it may sound strange and unusual. But that's the way it is.

Re: Rules 2006
 

Thank God!

Re: Rules 2006
 

1) The rules do not originate with the OSS. 10 years ago it started with the APBA tech comitee. It continued with APBA Offshore tech comitee in 2000 and now with OSS. The same faces different shirts.

2) What rule is keeping my dry-sump#6 ssm drives from competing?

pat W

Re: Rules 2006
 

Sorry this is boring you, but it seems that all Pat has to do is get 5 of the SCL teams to agree on his drive and his is in and Peppers will then be able to use them.

Thanks for your input.

Re: Rules 2006
 

Excellent statement from one of the most respected racers and race team owners in offshore, an extremely successful business man, and one of the most level headed OSO members.

Nobody can question Mr. Scott's understanding of business competition or his commitment to the sport. His statement could apply to any sanctioning body of any motorsport.