Re: Rules 2006
 

Dave,
I agree with you 100%
I say that because I think most all remember the Factory classes when they were the among the largest, hottest classes of racing on the water. Only problem was we were advertising for free and paying more than the average recreational boater for our power yet getting less. We asked for a little help for the effort. Their response was, "We're not interested". So, The fix seemed easy, go to another supplyer of power who would take better care of the racers. Problem is, that original supplyer has such a stronghold on the market and the racing world that it thinks it can muscle and bully to get its way. I personally see that as more of a monopoly, (some folks cringe when I say that).
In fact, at one time Almost all The factory class teams wanted to allow Volvo in the Factory classes. I personally talked with a few people with Volvo. They were very interested. They were never allowed in. Guess why.
I guess the best way to always win is never have anyone to compete against.

Re: Rules 2006
 

Good call Gordo.....

I was racing with Gordo during the Volvo time frame. And the funny part was that Innovation was building the HP Volvo engines as well as being the service center for Mercury and APBA. Interesting.....


Andy Bloom

Re: Rules 2006
 

because they are the most honest guys(innovation marine) out there.

Re: Rules 2006
 

Although it was nice to see manufactures compete for our money it sure made it harder on the racers to pick which manufacture to use. In the smaller boats once you picked which power plant you wanted that was it for one to two seasons. Most of us couldn't afford to experiment. In my opinion it was NEVER better racing then it was one Merc. 500EFI with 1 Bravo drive.
Yes this is bad on other manufactures but Offshore racing has such a limited number of boats it just made it so much simpler to race. In the end multiple motors KILLED Factory racing as we new it.
Simple was why we all loved it so much. If it would have stayed simple who knows how big the fleet would have been by today and maybe APBA would still be running its own sanctioning body still with 100 plus Factory boats racing in just 3 classes and all the major manufactures of quality boats would still have seen the value of sponsoring teams. And maybe with all that close great racing the sponsors and TV would have followed. WHAT IF????????
MD

Re: Rules 2006
 

OSS was formed in 03 because no-one wanted one motor VORTEC.

The factory boat racing was fine until the boat manufactures got in and started cheating. What it showed was the flaws in the equipment and set-up. The imco drive cured most of those problems. That is why there are rules stated allowing bravo upgrades. Merc copied and there are now XR's. That made the product better did it not?

Do you think if you left the drives alone Merc would have fixed them?

We upgraded the #6 but we are not allowed in the OSS rules. Why? Merc copied now there is a Merc dry-sump #6ssm.

pat W

Re: Rules 2006
 

reggie :eek:

Re: Rules 2006
 

Nonsense. OSS was formed because that other race organization was ruled by a wannabe Napoleon who's head was too big for his small frame. He wanted to dictate what racers were supposed to race (for instance in F1, an engine that existed only as a pipedream, or for instance in Cat one engine, period, but the Cat racers wanted to keep their very own private engine builders.)

OSS was formed so that the racers can decide what they buy with their own money. That may still be only one certain engine etc. But at least it's the equipment the racers want to race.

If an OSS class decides to race one engine and one drive, then they race one engine and one drive.

If an OSS class decides to race many engines and many drives, then they race many engines and many drives.

It's in the rules. Required reading if one is serious about racing OSS-

Re: Rules 2006
 

I was happy to hear that JD Byrider won yesterday Pat.

Re: Rules 2006
 

Bertel,
That is one of the biggest lines of crap I've ever read. If you have personal issues with previous officials of "that other race organization" that's your problem. However, you might consider that each and every one of these "wannabe" gentlemen you refer to are all successful business owners, and millionaires. They have all seen the Highs and lows throughout the history of our sport, and were trying to make use of that knowledge to advance the sport. You, at the time, were not even a rookie racer. Were you? Either way, your personal issues with past individuals should have nothing to do with how the sport of offshore racing is ran, yet it seems you insist on repeating the very history they tried to avoid.
And the engine you refer to in Factory 1, exactly which "pipedream" engine do you refer to? I was in the same meetings as you with Mr. Keikhafer Jr, The same one that Mr. Keikhafer said, I quote" We're not interested", and then again that same weekend in the meeting with the President, the Competition Director, and chief referee of APBA in Lauderdale where they said, What would you guys like to do? Maybe you missed that part, but the rest of us Factory racers heard it, even Randy.

Speaking of Randy, he said, "In the end multiple motors KILLED Factory racing as we new it".
In a way, he's right. It wasn't multiple manufacturers, it was the same manufacturer wanting us all to upgrade motors 3 times in 5 years, which led to multiple motors of the same brand in one class. Talk about having to spend money we didn't have...
It wasn't that no one wanted the Vortec, it was that "Mercury Racing" didn't want the Vortec.
Now, I've read a few ideas and speculations of when/why OSS was formed. I myself find it interesting, indeed almost coincidental, that when APBA finally decided to stand their ground and allow something other than Mercury Racing power, it was (interestingly) right after that OSS was formed. A year after it is formed, the classes all vote that shortly nothing other than Mercury Racing power will be allowed.
I'm sure it's a coincidence... :rolleyes:

Re: Rules 2006
 

I will never understand...when Bob Bull purchased APBA and one of the rules that were changed..was that the racers would have a say in the equipment changes....why OSS continued to move on with there Organization....

Mike A. was all I heard of why OSS would be formed...but when Mile A. got out...APBA still had Mike Tomlinson as Chief Ref. POP and his rescure team..APBA still had GMC as its series sponsor we still had the same APBA staff...APBA had the great race venues with new ones being added...like Ft Walton, Chaganuga, TN, and others....

APBA was still tied with the Great Lakes Series and Pacific Offshore....and there were 2 National Organizations...

APBA and SBI....and both were doing there own thing....

The P-Class boats were happy and other then some people thinking Mike A was the problem..even when he stepped down others wanted to start there own thing...

Now we have OPA joining races with OSS and Pacific Offshore joining also...which is great...thats what its going to take to get the boat count up....but remeber what is becoming great news today with the joining of theses Organiztions is what we already had in 2003...we just took it apart and seen how it wasn't working and now are getting back to what worked 5 years ago...and since Mike A is gone now putting blame on another on why Offshore is all messed up....

I just hope it gets put back together to were it was when I first started racing.....that's why I get started in it in the first place....watching it on TV...and it was why it was easy to get sponsors...and have others pay for us to do this....while we had fun doing it....

I race in both Organizations and it is what it is....but last weekend in both our so called National Race Organizations...we had one in Fl with 19 boats and one in Toronto with 28 or so boats and yes both Organizations had teams that could not make it for what ever reasons....noted...

But if what transpired at the end of 2003 to make the sport better is were we are today....what kind of report card do we give ourselfs after this this weekend on were the sport has progress to since 2002 and 2003....

Just some thought....if you say Offshore Racing is better then it was 3 to 5 years ago....I think its safe to say with the racers, fans that you are not in the majority today....now we made our beds and now we have to sleep in it....

Re: Rules 2006
 

Its not fair to compare OSS boat count average of I would say 35 a race to the APBA. As we all know OSS doesnt have factory racing or P class racing. I think OSS has exceeded everyones expectations I know it has mine and like you said joining with the OPA GLSCS and POPRA it will only grow larger. I believe this season has been a big leap forward in offshore racing and I hope that it continues. :drink:

Re: Rules 2006
 

Round, The OSS is still based around the 5 classes of SVL,SV,COB,SCL and SC. These are the 5 classes that pay money from the purse. The other classes are considered exhibition classes that are more of a run what you bring. OSS offered them a place to show case there totally amazing machines and mesmerize the fans. Hopefully some day there will be 5 or more boats in these classes but until then the major growth will be in the other 5 classes.
MD

Re: Rules 2006
 

where did you come up with eight classes

Re: Rules 2006
 

32 boats in 5 classes in toronto
+ 1 peppers new boat st claire debut
+1 pier 57 twisted metal being repaired
+1 muscle being repaired
+1 warpaint being repaired
+1 speedy who knows where he is
+1 dragon races where his sponsor tells him to. we missed you gino
37 or more in st claire and that is just the prize money classes.then add the cat extreme, v extreme, and turbine cat extreme , and the opa classes and some of the blue water boats, we could have 70 to 90 boats all together.
we are not growing?
well, it looks damn good here
:drink:
great inspectors too, upholding the rules to everyone.
thank you to all the owners in O S S.
we are the show

Re: Rules 2006
 

your right about the class count
we are still leading the way with more than anyone else and growing bro. come on back in the water is great

Re: Rules 2006
 

OK,
Now that we have the OSS figured out.

WHY ARE MY DRY-SUMP #6SSM DRIVES ILLEGAL IN SCL?

pat W

Re: Rules 2006
 

oldracefan.....

The observation I'm making is what you will see in St. Clair.
St. Clair will be the biggest boat count for 2006 until the Worlds...and it will be because of the combination of both open and closed cockpit boats....take a look at all the Organizations that had boats attend at least 1 race this year...
SBI/APBA has had around 45 or so, OSS has had around 43 or so OPA has had around 35 or so and I don't know the count for Pacific Offshore....that's around 125 boats that are out there racing.....now you have to minus out 8 to 10 for racing in more then one Organization...so it leaves you with around 115 teams out there...and you will see the number of teams out there are about the same as what was out there in 2003.....

The point I was making is we all remember in 2002 and 2003 in the 2 main Organizations you would have 70 to 80 boats showing up in one Organizations and 25 to 35 in the other...and in one race both Organizations race together and it wasn't even the Worlds....and now look at last weeks turn outs....

In closing...the point is....its great news that OPA and Pacific Offshore with there open cockpit boats will be joining in events with OSS....and you will see the big boat counts....but thats what we had in 2003 before everything went south....

Remember....the closest distance between 2 points are a straight line....but you will see when all this crap plays out in a couple of more years....you will see instead of taking the straight line....we took the seenic route to get to the same point....and get to back to where we were in 2003...

WATCH.....

Re: Rules 2006
 

Uhhh...Gino. I dont mean to rehash this topic, but according to SBI's site, it was 34.

Re: Rules 2006
 

BRUCES QUOTE {Uhhh...Gino. I dont mean to rehash this topic, but according to SBI's site, it was 34.
__________________
Hey Bruce....no affence taken....but read my post...I said all the boats that race at least 1 race in 2006....now go to the SBI/APBA web site and look at all the teams that particapated in at least 1 race in 2006...and your right its not 45 its 48 that attended...thanks for correcting me....but wether it was 34 or 48...I guess you still don't see what I'M saying here...

You will be in St. Clair and then you will se what I mean...you will see that will be the best race all year...and I mean it from a point from a fans, sponsors, tv and the racers view...

Re: Rules 2006
 

Hey Manitie I guess anything is possible, you definately have more knowledge about the sport than I do, we will have to just wait and see. Also how come you wont be in Saint Clair? I would think that this would be a Huge race for the Coast Guard. I thought there was a big station in Port Huron only ten miles away.

Re: Rules 2006
 

oldracefan....in the begining of the year it was on our schedule....but as you may know...a few..well 3 to be exact tought there were being funny by putting out some e-mails and a phone call to try to discredit me....well....lets just say we know who and were it came from....and out of what camp....
Not to smart on there part.....knowing they would still have to get things done ...and how it would look in other very inportant peoples eye's

The outcome is any OSS race I attend will be on my own...vice the race name #41 Dragon...along with no display or promoting the Coast Guard's campaign at there races....along with no uniforms worn with there logo's at there races...vice the white shirts we wear when we attend...

I'm attending there races becasue I want to race against all SV's and yes while there are a few cowards there....the mojority of the people in OSS are great people and would do anything for you and welcomed me with open arms and were very nice to me...which any race team would want....plus all my equipment fees and 2 races fees have been paid for me to attend 2 races to give the 3 cowards a oppertunity to approch me in person....and which by the way they did not in Ft. Myers....
But like I said a few months ago...there day will come...and one in perticular even got a e-mail from me..."WE" even paid a visit to there neighborhood twice...which they were not around...but it will be handle...

We will be attending the Orange Beach race as our 2nd one...I had a great time in 2003 there for the Worlds...

Re: Rules 2006
 

Earlier in this thread there was mention of the merc truck being there for you. I was told that a team in Toronto had a problem with a #6 drive. They took it to the truck and they could not help them because they did not have the tools. What is the truck there for?

pat W

Re: Rules 2006
 

Over 3600 views 100 plus responses and no answer.

If the Popeyes boat changes their hull are they allowed to run the imco 4x4 drive again or do they have to switch to merc?

pat W

Re: Total "Black & Blue" domination of a sport
 

As an engine manufacturer and builder of the now excluded 496 Vortec motor I can kind of see where Shifter - Pat is coming from here. There seems to have developed a very small club of "Black & Blue" team/factory racers who really think they can have parity , cost control, and new technology just by taking hand out, excuse me "contigency money" from one industry controlling manufacturer. You are being a little short sided. Unless you have exact parity, including all the hulls manufactured and used, there really is no such thing as offshore boat racing parity. Make the rules inclusive of more small industry manufacturers and builders and you can also lower some racing costs and maybe, just maybe the prize moneys will overcome the need for contigency money and the sport will be a lot more exciting for the fans, boat owners, sponsors and such! Gentlemen, stop patting yourselves on the back so hard take off the blinders and let the sport step up a notch. Noth'in like a little competetion to level the playing field!

Ray @ Raylar

Re: Total "Black & Blue" domination of a sport
 

I've heard good things about your work Ray.

Re: Rules 2006
 

Shifter: OSO is great for banter & rumors & trash talking, but not a reliable source for rules. This thread is called "2006 Rules."

If you would please consult http://www.offshoresuperseries.com/rules.php , then you would find the answers to your questions right there.

Re: Total "Black & Blue" domination of a sport
 

Raylar, we've been saying this again and again, and we won't stop saying it: At OSS, these decisions are made in a democratic fashion, racers say yay or nay. If you want to influence their decisions, then you must do what is done in a democracy: Engage your constituency, lobby them, try to make them see the positive in your product.

Accusing your customers of "taking a hand out" or being "a little short sided" ( I assume you mean "short sighted" ) just alienates them more. You rarely get a vote by telling your voters that they are stupid and crooks.

And let's not forget how the Vortec got its 15 minutes of fame. It was based on a somewhat questionable deal between APBA and god-knows-whom, a lease program at obscene prices, and a hand out, excuse me "contigency money" that supposedly went back to the racers. But in SVL, it so happened that the then Technical Director of APBA received the lions share of that hand out, and he wasn't even embarrassed of trumpeting out loud that he got most of the money.

Those days are over, once and for all.

Re: Total "Black & Blue" domination of a sport
 

As usual, an incorrect statement by you regarding things that happened way before you ever started kissing Randy's azz.

When the Vortec deal came around, Steve Miklos offered me the engine and sponsorship deal, and I'm pretty sure another team was offered when I declined. I will try to find the letter just to prove that you have no clue what you are talking about. The engine was an unknown in offshore, so the racers passed on Steve's offer. Steve really had no choice but to put it in his boat. Through testing and more testing, he got more out of that engine than any of us could have.

I appreciated the offer, and never had a second thought about him, as Competition Director, running the package. That is because I knew the truth....................

Re: Rules 2006
 

The reason I started this thread was to find out why the rules are against my company. The rules are liquid. At the drop of a hat they change in favor of keeping my products out of competition.

The media has not written one article in ten years about this subject, so I brought it here to the racers section to get answers and hopefully to stop the constant rules manipulation.

I have been over the rules and it is not clear. Send me a pm or call me with the specific rule that is keeping my #6ssm dry-sump drive from competeting. Then we will clarify the other 10 rules that are against my company.

Thanks,
pat W

Re: Rules 2006
 

Bertel,

I don't know if you qualify for Phantom1's assessment or not but the suggestion that the Vortec deal lined anyone's pocket is absolutely wrong. You are dead wrong in this instance. If you don't believe me fine...then you won't believe anyone.

The Vortec leases were cheap when GM needed the testing and in my opinion allowed some folks to race who might otherwise not.

The finances were above board and CRE and Innovation i'm sure benefitted but we are talking hundreds of dollars in CRE's case...not enough to cover the administration of the program which was done for nothing.

Everyone thought Alweiss was walking away with millions. Ask OSS (a well organized sanctioning body...i was one of their turn boats in Toronto) if they have been able to "salt away" millions, thousands or even hundreds. It is not an easy business and anyone in it deserves a great deal of respect.

These old chestnuts of which you speak have reached the level of urban mythology. Just remember, they are myths and you are posting them as if you knew what you are talking about. You don't.

Ted Z

Re: Rules 2006
 

Thanks for your input Ted.

Re: Rules 2006
 

Bertel,
you can try to spin all you want, but Ted Zoli is one of the most highly respected businessmen and offshore racer in the history of our sport. If Ted says it, take it to the bank. You however, should take it as gospel as well.

Re: Rules 2006
 

Thanks Gordo but please don't post any more messages my mother sends you!!

Ted

Re: Rules 2006
 

Ted: I never insinuated that anybody got rich on the Vortec deal. The numbers just weren't there. I was the first one to comment that Alweiss was nuts for wanting APBA/CRE enter the race engine business by mandating a purpose-built Vortec for F1 & F2 (it never happened.) 30 to 40 engines just ain't worth it.

You are absolutely right with your comment about nobody getting rich by organizing boat races. That's why OSS lets its owner/members democratically decide how they spend their money.

Re: Rules 2006
 

Not sure I want to know all the back room "smoke and politics" that created the Vortec engine program, I do know that one senior GMC manager in charge got his walking papers from GM when the engine could not be delivered as advertised for a GM high performance crate engine program GM created and other off color things I guess.
I do now know as well as many in the high performance community, that stock 496HO's when equipped with our kits and headers produce almost identical horsepower and torque figures as the Merc HP525 blue motors. This option of another motor package to compete one on one with the Mercury "blue motor" would probably result in a lot more teams competing in those appropriate classes with their 496 motors. These don't have to be called Vortec to benefit GM, just create an equal engine called the 496HO-525 and open the choice and lower the cost to teams wanting to use this package. I know we would participate as sponsors and both Innovation and Tyler Crockett could certify and seal these engine packages since they are both infinitly familar with this motor. Just some food for thought. Add more stock, thicken the broth and build the racing programs? Just a thought.

By the way, the teams and officials in OSS are great people doing a wonderful service for the marine high performance industry and providing great sport and competition! Keep on Rac'in!

Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

Re: Rules 2006
 

Why don't you just call it a Raylar 525.

Since there was a vote can I get a yes and no count and who voted what on the decision to keep my #6ssm dry-sump drives out? Was it a 100% no vote to rule it out?

I do not understand why this thread was put here it was relating to all the groups. OSS, SBI and OPA ect....

pat W

Re: Rules 2006
 

Shifter: If you want your drives to be accepted, you really, really need to read and understand the rules. That would be the start.

Re: Rules 2006
 

I really, really read the rules that is how I know there is 10 rules against my company.

I do not know what rule is keeping my dry-sump #6ssm drives from competing in the SCL class.

Thy are still #6's they are dry-sump, they are legal in my book. There are other converted dry-sump #6 drives (TNT, Coabella) are they allowed?

Look at rule #14. Exclusivity.
Does that apply to the racers and not the organization? If you give an exclusive why are you paying for the product? If you are paying for the product who is getting payed for the exclusive?

pat W

Re: Rules 2006
 

Please proceed to "Approved Outdrives." It will tell you what is legal and what is not. The Mercury Raccin #6 SSM is.

Then please proceed to "Drive Modifications." It will tell you that changes to the #6 are not allowed.


If you need rule clarifications, then the request should be directed to the OSS Technical Chairman, Bob Teague. This is obvioulsy not an effective forum for these questions.

Re: Rules 2006
 

I have talked to Bob.

If the no mods are true it should be the same for Teague bravos, Imco bravos, ect..... When I make a bravo drive can we race it?

It is like saying that you cannot blueprint (lab finish) a prop, Just because a big company sold it to you does not mean it is a good product.

Peppers had my #6 drives.
They had to buy new merc #6 drives. Why?
That is 60 grand thrown out the window.

I was not allowed to state my case to the OSS owners so I am doing it here.

I see the rules but there is not a good explination for why they are there.

Cost? no
Safety? no
Availability? no
Service? no

If there is not a good reason the rules should change.

pat W