Why???
 

Why is it so hard for people to move up to a spec class? I feel there must be reasons why people dont move classes. I believe P class was started to attract new racers and bring out some older race boats that didnt fit in classes.
With a starter class like SVL you can be in a canopy full blown race boat with a Merc motor thats good for at least 3 years with oil changes only. There is the $10,000 purse,intence competition knowing you are racing equal boats with equal power,strickt rules,better sponsorship opertunities and what looks like a better chance for TV coverage. You can get in one of these for as little as $50K and a new one around $140K. So what gives!
MD

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Lot Easier Said Than Done

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Whelp, let's be honest here. If you pick up the 50k boat you are likely gonna need 100k by the time it's competitive and then about another 50k to campaign the boat across the country with the OSS. Then you have to take all the time that is necessary to get to and compete at the different venues. Then you have to grow a big enough set of balls to get out there with the master of disaster Randy Schleuss and dice it up. Pretty big order there buddy....


Happy New Year my friend, hope to see ya soon :D

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For me it would be i need more MONEY.

Re: Why???
 

You all make good points. Randy and I briefly discussed this today and dont see eye to eye on a few things.

Chris is right. it is alot easier said than done.

As a small business owner, who does just about everything to keep things moving, Its very difficult to leave my business on Wed nite or Thursday morning and not return to work until the following Tuesday or Wed. Unforunately, I cant conduct business via phone or laptop. I have to be there. I cant afford a crew either. If I could, I doubt they could afford to take off from their full time jobs for 4 days twice a month.

Ted is right also ......
There is NO WAY you are gonna buy a SVL for 50k and run in OSS and be competitive. if Anyone bought a boat knowing that it had no chance of being competitive in a spec class, they are wasting their time and money. You can have just as much fun running P class. (Notice I refrain from saying less money.) Afterall isnt that why we do this? to have fun?

Bobby makes a valid point. Not too many guys in P-6, P5 or P-4class can afford to, or even wants to lay out close to 100K on a true spec class race boat. Many of them want to be able to go out on non race weekends and have fun. Its very difficult to go pleasure boating in a 2 seat canopied boat.

And last but not least "My Friend POO"

I think your #s are a bit off.
I think a team on a budget can campaign a SVL for the full season for as little as 30k per year. Thats not including tearing the drive off the back a few times.

If you start to add in airfare for the Driver and T man and their families and crewmembers, I think the number would jump to 50k . Now throw in a couple of transom assblys and drives and you jump up to about 70k. And thats assuming you do most of the repair work yourself.

Partnerships, in most cases, dont work out. be it a race boat or a pleasureboat.

I love the SVL class and would love to someday see 20 boats across the line. But unfortunately, time and lack of money (our own or sponsorship) are the more important issues for most of us.

As a former P class boat owner, I can tell you this. In the long run, buying a spec class boat ie F-1 SVL or SV with stock Merc power, it would be much cheaper than running a conventional V hull boat with BIG HP custom built motors.

Further....I can tell you this. If Schluess didnt have an Awesome crew, with the time to pull his rig to the races, he'd be looking at this topic in a completely different light. I know for a fact that he would have a tough time gettin on the road to pull the boat to all the races as well. He's been very fortunate all these years to have BIG Eddie and Trophy Biotch on his crew.

Obviously, the future of offshore racing is not looking too good at this point. And not too may people are going to go out and invest or blow a ton of money on a race boat when the current affairs of offshore are grim.

Now... if we all get together under one flag. We may have a fighting chance to make it work. Which is a very tall order.

Happy New Year to all. and to all a good nite.

Re: Why???
 

Whats harder to get Time or money? If you could get one of the 2 could you do it?
As in most teams there is a money guy and a worker guy. Most people with money dont have time or the mechanical skills and are willing to pay more to just show up. The mechanic may have more time but just cant come up with the money. Its a hard match to come up with and I have been very lucky with Murry,Trophy Bit$h,Big Ed and Natoli. Just trying to see what might help to progress the sport.
I have one suggestion that might help. Start a thread on here stateing what you are willing to pay to get in someones boat or what you are looking for if you have a boat and want a team mate. Sort of like a classified post.
MD

Re: Why???
 

I stepped up and bought the OSS boat and spent the time for travel to every OPA race and championship. Still I couldn't justifiy or perhaps even afford to run OSS Stock Class where it takes a real crew, 4 sets of props, 2 spare power heads, a couple of lowers and that doesn't even cover entrance fees. Even at that I find it hard to believe the racing would be any better or more fun. So I don't know that "stepping up to a spec class" is really stepping up. I guess it is how you define "stepping up"

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:drink: :cool:

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Thats a bad phrase on my part. I should use the term getting in a canopy boat with spec rules. I totally understand the fun factor of P class racing its great but there is something to be said about testing yourself against others with equal boats and running WOT with your best set up. The talant in P class is outstanding and I wish we could all race each other in a spec class. I have been fortunate to have been able to race in F1 with 20 boats around us at the start and let me tell you about the fun factor. Its threw the roof!!!!
Less classes more boats per class is the only way. There just arent enough racers to support all those classes.
MD

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Call it stepping down. Im OK with that too.
MD:eek:

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first let me say we spent many years in the local than p-classes , before we stepped up to a spec class . I know that one has to tread lightly on this subject as not to buise egos . everyone gets hung up on comparing hardware hey I used to do that also , there is no doubt that there is some impressive stuff racing p-class , but it is an entry level class moving to a spec class takes it to another level of competition ( P- class was designed to be a place that people that had an interest in racing could run whatever boat they had to have fun and try it out before making the comitment of a full fledge race boat) by that I mean closed canopy that you can't really go out pleasure boating in with friends , I also realize that there are alot of closed canopy boats racing P ( which while legal and I can understand that some fof these teams just want to run relatively close to home and not comite to a full nation season ) but that in it self is a deterant to people entering p class ( people see full out super cats or super V boats and don't want to take there open cockpit pleasure boat out against them) to take a step back we showed up in 2003 in marathon with a phantom and the other the other ( P-3 teams ) flipped out but in fairness we were a minority then ( many more canopy boats now) I don't have the answers but we need more entry into offshore and that starts with the run what ya brung classes( P- class) as intended,
the P- classes will always have bickering as to classing boats but the goal should be when one gets more serious instead of bickering about inherent inequities in P class they should "move up" into a spec class.
In reality many new P teams every year and a handfull of them would move into spec classes . So the real question is 2 part
1 how to attract more entry level teams ( to at least try it like the old local class) OPA with no entry fees is on the right tract
2 make it more feasible or attractive to have a small percentage of them move into spec classes
sorry for the rambleing Larry
( note we spent much more on engines running p-class than now however because you can't simply put more power in you have to comit much more time to set up and tuning the boat )

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Everyone here has a good point, my question is why fix something that isn't broken? Our boat is supervee legal to a point. We would have to pull the 525's get them tagged or sealed , which is an expense. And then go through the inspections, and travel to places that would really be tough on our respective businesses. OPA has made racing affordable for a lot of teams and welcomed us with open arms, when we ran our open 32' activator OSS didn't want us and SBI was too far for us. OPA races are within a fairly close distance to us and have all been great places to race. With
the spec classes all I hear about is how everything is fair and level. If you believe that i've got a bridge for sale. But thats another thread in its own right. If we have issues and or questions, Smitty took the time to explain them and was always more then fair. OPA is growing and we like the whole program. As far as canopied boats like ours scaring off the open boats? It ain't happening. A 28' open skater(Catcando) took us to school, maybe we scared them so bad we couldn't catch them lol. If you guys like the spec racing, more power to you, I support you 100%, It's just not for everyone.

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Louie brings up a great point about areas also. With most racers being self funded or lightly sponsored and virtually everyone having a "real" job, it is very difficult to travel the long distances involved in national racing. If the bodies are to come together under one banner then a regional structure MUST be put in place. This is in part the reason for SBI/APBA's success-most of their races are within a day's drive and many are within a few hours at best. OPA has done a great job of maintaining boat count and spreading things out some but you can still drive the distance between the furthest races (aside from the Worlds) in a day, trailering.

And I have to disagree with you Bruce, offshore is looking pretty good in some places, just the national picture is a little foggy right now. But unless and until more money comes into the sport so there can be more than a select few fully funded teams with full time employees, a national series is gonna have issues.

Re: Why???
 

All of you guy's have brought good points. I am a good example for this. I have been wanting to get into racing for a couple of years now and didn't know where to start. I own my own buissness and for me its easier to come up money than time for a hobby. After looking at all the different orginizations I feel that OPA class racing would best fit my profile. They 're schedual has a good amount of races within a short driving distance of Jersey and the people involved seem to be easy going and nonpolitical. I think that puts less pressure on a newcomer to the sport. Now the hard part is finding somebody with the time and energy to do the work end as I don't have the time to drive to and from race sites or do the maintenance required to be competative. This year I plan on attending as many of the local races as I can it doesn't look like I'll have a boat ready for '07 but I still want to get out and meet the people involved.


Nick S.

Re: Why???
 

Looks like youve found a good spot for some Fountain hunting.
Gonna get that lttle P P chopped off lol. Welcome aboard, now lets get racing.

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Maybe I am missing something (would not be the first time) but isnt is also true that for the most part moving from P-Class toa Spec Class with the expectation of being competative would require the Racer to sell their existing equipment.. a used "Non-Race" Race Boat, which can take a very long time.

A meaningful barrier to entry?.

Gregg Reichman

Re: Why???
 

AH...And who was the winner in that Canopy vrs open boat? Hmmmmmmmm. I Know.

Re: Why???
 

These are just questions on how to help people. There is no right or wrong answer. Its all good feed back and wish more people would post that have boats. It sounds like the traveling time is a big problem for most. I will tell the board at OSS that they may want to try and keep more races in the N.East or at least in the Atlantic Ocean. If more people respond that this is what it would take maybe its something they should look at. Lou if you feel that OPA is good for you then by all means keep at it. I am just wondering if there are people that want to get in a canopy but just cant and why.
MD

Re: Why???
 

Who dosen't want to be in a canopy? Money just for the boat and maintenance is one issue. Then the time off from mostly small self owned companies juggle the family with personally for myself no sponsership money it is not a cheap hobby. I think that pushing everyone to a canopy boat will dicourage the new who would like to give it a try. Nothing bad about stepping up but you still need a place to step in.
JIm

Re: Why???
 

that was really the point I was trying to make Donzilla. I would in a perfect world see 100-150 + boat in the divisional ranks OPA, great lakes etc. and to set the record straight I like the P-class rules always did ( certainly not perfect but what is ) , out of those a handfull to really get the bug and go to national classes what we need and ( I feel this is what randy was trying to say) is we need more of a incentive for teams to "move up" for lack of a better word.I certainly understand the problems with doing so ( mainly time off work with us anyway) , however ; for the sport to grow that is what has to happen divisional organizations [ local racing lots of boats ) feeding the national classes {fewer classes ( with good number perclass) but with less overall boat count} , just my 2 cents and as I said perfect world .
note! nothing I say in here is in anyway meant to insult or discredit any race team , I personally respect anyone who has the balls to strap a helmet on and go out on the course and lay it on the line. We all know most tough guys just stand on the dock or bar and tell you how hard they run. I salute those that do it
Larry Kostelac

Re: Why???
 

Randy, Communication is always good and will make what we do better in the long run. When I started fooling with race boats years back my father told me it's a sport of kings, well the only throne I have is made outta porclein. So we tow our own boat and race it and tow it home and fix it and repeat. I don't regret a minute of it. We are all lucky to have families that know we are nuts and put up with us, lol, sometimes I even think they enjoy it too. Time will tell on who can race what and where, but one things for sure you and your team have always given a 1000% to the sport and will always be an asset. 2007 here we come!
Louie

Re: Why???
 

The question really is what will it take for someone to invest more time and money into racing with OSS? (Since OPA doesn't yet have a spec class) For me it would take the chance for TV exposure, huge purses and serious manufacturer support. In my opinion, if someone dedicates so much to racing they should be able to make money at it if they are reasonably successfull. Not paying to put the race on. I live in St Clair and I can tell you the impact of that race is enormous to the city.(Thank you Ed Smith) What we should be discussing is how to get Detroit, Cleveland, New York and other mega market cities to raise some serious $$$ and tv coverage. If you have $100k purses racers will race where the $$$ is.

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I believe Hagen is attempting to do just that. It takes a great show on TV to get people excited and to put on a great show you need a action packed fleet of boats. And in my opinion that would take 10-20 boats for that class to create that kind of excitment. If everyone sits and has the lets see what happens attitude no one will show. I think if Hagen is willing to take a shot at this sport and put up big money to move it forward we should all take this oppertunity. This may never happen again in our sport. People dont have to run the whole OSS year if they cant get the time but do as many as possable would be a start. You are all family to me and if there is a desire for any of you please call me and maybe we can help in some way by brain storming together.
MD

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We are a new race team that had to make the OPA or OSS choice. We bought a bare 30'phantom. We have chosen to run OPA for the following reasons
1. no entry fee's
2. we live in the north east
3.We have no racing experience and feel OSS SVL would be out of our league at the present time.
4.It will take alot of set up time and experience to get our older phantom competative in OSS SVL we would wrather get this experience closer to home and without paying entry fee's.
5. the cost of a new 525efi vs P class motor
If all goes well and we get some experience and are ready to step up we will spend the money and race some OSS races in 2008. We are setting the boat up to OSS SVL specs except the motor so it will be easy to make the move.
Hope this might give you guys a Greenhorns view at making the choice we are very new to this but want to make a go of it.
Scott and Eddie

Re: Why???
 

You have many good reasons. If I could change your mind on anything, it would be to buy the 525efi now. There are some low hour 525s for sale from OSS racers moving up to a new class. You dont need a brand new one. It'll be more reliable and trouble free. And will hold its value over a custom motor.

The extra money (maybe 10k) you lay out now, will save you a hell of a lot more on custom build motors and headaches down the road. Just my 2 cents speaking from experience.

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LOL hey Bruce I just emailed you about your motor for sale. We hear ya on the 525efi thing its what we really want to do but we have so much damn cash to spend on this pig to get it race ready. we are keeping our motor options open though a 525 would be great and make more sense in the long run
Scott

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SD,

Welcome to the OPA, you will never have more fun! :drink:

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More racers = More fun. Welcome Guys. Call me tomorrow, 732 920 3945 Smitty

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Very interesting reading and a great thread! Many well thought out points of views and ideas. I raced some in 2000 in P-5 Class, was just about when P class started as an organized enter level class. Had a daughter, then a son and had to get out of racing for a bit. Plan to get back into it in 2008. Looking forward to race in OPA and P-Class. I like the OPA no red tape, no hypocrisy, no hidden political agenda way of doing things. Doesn’t seem to be any feuds in that sanction. What was intriguing for me in P-Class, where many factors:

• Run what ya brung
• Fairly inexpensive & cost is really up to you! (like drag racing/bracket racing: More Speed=more $$$) but your really racing brackets and the bracket=speed-money
• Had a vast array of boats, great mix!
• No egos really, just FUN times and some bragging rights!
• Plus as a fan of the sport first and racer second, I could relate to P-Class open cockpit boats to my own boats and friend's and family’s boats. Kind of like how some like NHRA Drag Racing Pro Stock Class, you can relate the car’s body type to your own street machine (not like a funny car class so much and definitely not like a dragster)
• I kind of like to see the guys who tow their own boats to the race with their family and their SUV’s and all and make it a family weekend sport and a family trip/vacation at the same time.
• It seems to be more related to the “Average Joe” every day man’s sport.
• Kind of a grass roots racing run what ya brung.
• Race your boat on Saturday and take your boat on a cruise with family on Sunday.

Just my .02 cents as an offshore race fan foremost and a racer second. Like I said, very interesting thread here and great input & points of view!

Johnny

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Johnny, I dont know if we have ever met. I love the way you think. I wonder sometimes why we do the things we do. It is all because we are bigger fans than we are racers. Well spoken. I hope you find the time to join us. As a racer or a fan, makes no difference. Smitty

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Hey Smitty,

I think we may have met at Ft Myers in 2000, early in the year at the Hooter's sponsored race. I raced a 24' Baja Outlaw for Team Baja/Full Throttle P5-69.

Hope to be back 2008, just getting my stuff back together now.
Take Care and God Speed,
Johnny

Going Racing OPA 2008! (Looking for a FUN Sponsor!!!)

I look forward to seeing that boat perform! :drink:

A very good point, a single engine boat capable of alittle over 90 put in the same class as a twin engine wazzup power boat capable of well over 100, Mr. President you should be ashamed of youself! Hell now you have the slow vee guys wanting there own class. Just kidding,not, but that is pclass racing and if we stayed in it we would be blowing well over 50k a year chasing you. I think pclass racing is great as long as you truly run what you brung, once you start building bigger motors then the other guy and so on, you should consider spec racing it saves thousand and you spend alot more time racing and testing and a hell of alot less time fixing things, plus that pleasure boat after several races will no longer be a pleasure boat. Everybody chooses to ignore it but the biggest reason is safety! We went to Daytona and a pclass racer get killed and went to Marathon next and saw how sweet it is roll right in front of us and we were in a open cat and figured that would not worked out for us to well, 4 years later several spin outs and a couple of deep stuffs and I am still here to type about it is a good thing. Back to the numbers game last year we made over $20,000 in prize money plus mercury contigency, ran our 525 for two years sold it got in a new one for 6k, 3k a year in motor expense, not bad at all! So for us the money spent is way below the fun factor, especially when you figure the value of kicking Randy's ass as price less!

Speaking for myself, I would not race in an open cockpit boat again after being thrown out at speed and run over in 1996. It makes no difference to me if it is P-Class racing or a Spec class I would still need a Canopy to Race.

By the way, having now raced in both Spec and P-Class the level of competition is probably better in a GPS regulated class like P-Class since the ever present cheater deal does not help you and the P-Class Guys racae just as hard.

Super V tells the entier story - you can't go out as a "normal" participant who want to be competative and expect to be competatative with the Factory Teams who can afford to build a new boat, and cut it to pieces every 90 days to build a faster one. Even very well funded teams get sick of fighting this fight.

I agree that in the beginning P-Class was designed for a way to get into the sport with what you already Own without having to make a commitment to a purpose built race boat, but I don't think that is the current profile at all and I don't think that is a bad thing either.

Gregg Reichman

In any motorsport the goal is to be the fastest and win, while P-class has its merits, is it good for the sport?? is it good for the industry??

Simply put technology has exceeded the need, or desire.

so all the manufacturer's can go back to heavy layups, forget about hydrodynamics, and why even bother to set a boat up to run its maximum speed when a X speed will work.

While it is important for those that cant afford a state of the art boat to race, the sport needs a place to show its latest hardware, and on a national type level!

I think you are missing the point - those who can afford state of the art boats are generally not going to voluntarily bang their heads against the wall or stick bamboo shoots udner their fingernails "for the love of the sport". They have the funds they have becuase they are generally smart. As I look at my Competitors in Super V, most of them can afford to do whatever they weant to do if it makes sense - the point is - it simply does not make sense because thgey won't build a boat every few months to stay with the leaders.

Does winning races really, truly sell Boats?.

The latest Hardware is always available for Viewing at the Miami Boat Show, and you don't even have to get a sun burn to see it.

What makes a good "boat race" is deck to deck competition.

What eliminates competiton is ... well... people who are smart enough to know that despite best efforts, they won't be competative.

Gregg Reichman

And one more thing - The new Canopied V Bottom Class that Doyle and SBI put together is definetly good for the sport, if it is P-Class, fine, whatever it is called you will have a bunch of Guys racing in similar equipment that would otherwise not be.

Gregg Reichman

When you bought youre boat did you think it was obsolete, when it came out of the mold??? or did you think you would dominate the Competition??

When the Skater Came out with 6's they new it would be fast!
that was the intent!

Also rember when the Skater first came out....it fell on its face in its first race in Key West...it took a lot of money and time and changes to get it faster...which it was disqualified in the APBA race for moving strakes...
With enough money...any manufacture can make a better and faster boat every year....

Why did everyone stop racing F1....I will bet you even with the 525...if all the F1 boats could only hit a top speed of say...79 or 80 mph...a lot of boats would have continued to race...but why bring out a 77 mph F1 boat when you have to compete with 83 to 84 mph boats....

When F1 was big in 2001 and 2002 with its 20+ boat fleet...
you could win with a 2 or 3 year old boat becasue of the hymoligation rule...it kept new boats being built theh same as the 2 or 3 year old boat....

Pete B....you should know the answer...
Were are all the OSS Super Vee's and Svl's

Its been stated you have the best rules,
Stricted inforcements
Great race sites
Biggest prize money
A non profit group
Race all around the country.....and yet have the smallest boat count since OSS formed in 2004...

One of the reason OSS SCL is so great is becasue most all of the teams have the newest and best equipment...its either a MTI or SKATER....

It show's you even if you have money...you will not buy racers to come out and spend there's.

Again its funny...someone posted the other day....in the US a lot of racers don't want to race in P-Class becasue its for the beginner racers....but in P1 in Europe its the hottest thing in the World right now and teams are now traveling over there...

So like louie said in the earler posts...he his happy and having a great time in P-Class...and so are a lot of other racers...
P-Class racing makes up more then 65 to 70% of all Offshore racers today....and some spec teams are making the move over to P-Class....

To each is own....but the majority has spoken in OSS, SBI/APBA and OPA Organizations...and ask yourself...
If spec Class was really all of it...we all would be racing in there....