New 26 is sitting here. Just trying to figure out what to do w/ it.

I think OPA's Current system works fairly well ( the speed limits not the actual Recording Device ). There are some boats that are definitely overpowered that need moved but only a few...... i think. If a guy has his boat propped, geared and chipped to run at or near the class speed and it seems as though he is running away with races, then the boat should be ran. Alot can be answered by just switching up to a larger propeller and give it a go. IE: 5200 RPM w/1.5 gear 26" prop 10% ( just for figure sake ) =76.8MPH This is a good candidate for 5class OPA, if it is suspected that this same engine is totaly out accelerating the class, slap on a 28" this at same RPM =82.7 assuming the engine can pull it to the same RPM as the 26". If so i say try a 30" Now your at 88.6 if it can pull the RPMS with this one, then its time to move up to class 4.
Now the problem would be the safety factor coming in, if the participants simply don't want to race this vessel at class 4 speeds. THen what do you do?? One doesn't want em to dominate class 5 when it really should be a 4 boat, as well as you don't want to push em into 4 and then right out of the sport. However if they built such a powerful boat then i would suspect they wouldn't mind the closer competition the next faster class would offer.
Point is the GPS limit works well and brings some close racing. I think a clapped out top end number of 78 in the 75 mph class is not bad, even 80 mph boat in the 75 class. it is only a problem when the total top end ability of the boat exorbinately exceeds the class speed that it needs to be looked at and by then hopefully the rest of the competitors in that class have allready spoke with each other and the boat in question to have it checked for its abilities.

What do you do, tell them to not overpower the boat for the class they want to race. It is really pretty simple. If your boat can run 90 race in a 90 mph class and get some balls.

That is the part that is killing me with this discussion, if your ego tells you to put in big power to impress your friends, impress us all and race it at the speeds it is capable.

Case in point, in 2002, Harry Clack put a whipple on his bat boat (now my bat boat) at the SBI worlds that year (New Orleans) he ran the boat on P2. A bat boat for gods sake..... that is what you do, show some balls and race in the class your boat should be in. If all the racers would do that there would not be a problem.

Sorry, but the problem is not with the rules.

Rick

I thought the sport was called Boat Racing :D

If Brian will bring out a F1, I will bring out another F1 !!! Any more manufactures willing? Dave

Noun: racing reysing
A sport of engaging in contests of speed, were competitors push themselves or equipment to the limit(s) of speed and endurance.

Derived forms: racing, races, raced

See also: racer, racial, racing, racy

Thanks.. this is exactly what I am saying, you are only a racer if you are interested in pushing your self and boat to a limit, propping down does not do that.

How much longer before somebody buys a 36' Skater and props down to run P3/P4? What a smooth ride that would be at 80 mph, and most likely untouchable. Even though they would be in a race, you could hardly call them racers. :rolleyes:

There is no doubt in my mind everything I am saying is unpopular with some, but in the end you know when you are cherry picking.

Don't get me wrong, if you have a boat that has a top speed of 78, I can see you setting up the boat for a top speed of 75. My issue is boats that can run 85+ being set up for 75. Seeing 36' boats with twin engines and big power running P4 is the issue. That has pushed the legitimate P4 boats into P5 to be competitive and the development of P6.

Let's face it the only reason there is a P6 is because of cherry picking and that is the reason that Randy asked the orginal question, it used to be P4 that we talked about, now it is P5. Issue remains the same. In the end it will never be solved.

The only way you can avoid it is to move to a spec or unlimited class. Maybe we should bring back the A and B classes?

Well the one thing you can do....is the racers who are going to actully be racing with OPA IN 2008 get all togehter on a call....and come up with some ideas...and bring them to Smitty....and while the rules are in place for 3 years....It never means the can not be tweeked to keep the class fair...
There will be 12 to 15 Class 5 guys next year....either way...if you guys come up with some limitations or something in that area....or I'm sure Smitty will make the desition on whats fair and what class a boat should race in...
but the sooner you guys can put something together the better....
You might first get a list of all the P-5 guys who race last year and get together...
Like Ken said....all you guys in Class 5 can hit the 75mph mark...its how fast you can get there is were how close the racing will be....

The bottom line is Knowledge and Cubic Dollars. People like myself have the knowledge and the resorces to build and set up my own boat to be competitive and win ( I have no money ) Then there are people with money that pay other people to set up there boats and build engines. If class 6 were for beginners where were they?? Everyone that raced in class 6 raced before. You can't tell me there are people out there with bone stock boats that are willing to pound the $hIT out of them on a race coarse if we wait for them you just eliminated class 6. They eliminated A and B class and also F-2 and there are 1 or 2 F-1 boats still running the whole idea with P class racing was to get all the old race boats back out and maybe some new ones which it has with minimal BS and tech inspections that last 10 Hours. If you don't have enough power to run the class you are in step down a class as long as you fit in the rules for that class.

Conversely, Should a boat with too much power step up a class, and what do we consider too much power?

I definitely agree we don't want long inspections and all the tech stuff, but in class 6, if my 496 MAG HO is not getting the job done, I can't step down a class. That leaves me no
alternative but to build a bigger bullet. But the issue is
how big should I go? As the rules read I can put as big a motor in as I can fit. Should I call Dave Scott & buy one
of his 1500hp Sterlings?
My point is, do we need a HP cap or do we go with the 70MPH
as our only restriction?
Tyler had his Joker set up to rock and roll and
it was a perfectly legal boat. But, If a new guy shows up
with a mountain motor in his boat, do we all have to build new
motors to keep up?

Just thinking out loud
Rich
Undertow 611

At the risk of getting flamed, the biggest problem ive seen with class 5 and 6 is "sandbagging." Plain and simple.:party-smiley-004: OPA has done a great job with creating a viable set of rules and classes. It is up to the racers to man up and run thier boat in the appropriate class.
Another issue is the talk of p-6 or 5 being the "entry level" class. There are some experienced racers running in both of those classes. That may be the case, but 5 and 6 are also the classes for racers who dont have fat wallets either.
The last thing we need to do is make a spec class out of p-6. Most guys running those boats are on a tight budget as it is. The added expense of having to purchase a Merc or any other factory motor is not needed.

I hate to say it but it is easier to add more power then it is easier to break out and maybe break a motor and not finish it could go either way. I just built the boat for the rules in the class. The Dukes killed everybody for 2 years until George and I came along ( what if we did not come along ) and we ran with them the first year but our boat was horrable and could not take the beating so we corrected the problem with a new Joker we ran the same motor. The Dukes, myself and that Bad Boy 24 that was in Cambridge this year all have 650-700 HP The bat boats have 320 HP And the Undertow has 420 HP. So that means Undertow steps up to 650 HP and the Bat boats get to run 2 Small blocks at 320 HP each. :D

No need...just needed to get that one 320 running right! :grinser010:

Quick question: Can any boat in class 6 Run class 5 speeds with a prop change?

Problem is many teams or boat in class 6 have run competitively already in 5. When class 6 was created it was made as an entry level class; allowing teams that ran and competed in 5 to drop down to 6 opened this can of worms.

I think all forms and levels of racing need a feeder or entry level class, a place were teams can get there feet wet and maybe step up to the bigger classes once they gain experience and confidence. That’s what #6 was originally designed for originally.

Class 6 was for the smaller single engine boats to run in like mine. :hitfan:

So what happens then if I get a 900HP engine, do you all
have to step up to my level? Where is the practical limit.
I don't mind building a 650 HP motor, but what happens
when someone builds 800?

As far as class 6 being entry level, entry level to me means
least expensive. 26' or less boat, single engine, appropriate
top speed. You can't have a class only for new guys. There
are not enough of them to support the class.

Rich
Undertow 611

Tyler,

Please do not take anything written here as personal. We have never met and I have heard nothing but good things about you.

So if class 6 is for boats under 26' foot with 600+ hp, where I am suppose to run?

It was not that long ago that the bat boat would run against F1 boats (500-525hp) competitively. Now I am being told that Class 6 is a 600hp class with almost the same boat as the F1 although no weight rule. Thus an F1 boat is at a disadvantage in class 6? This is getting too complex.

Thus let me ask a different question (a personal one). It was my intention to replace the shot engine in my boat with the 383 Stoker that Mercruiser is putting out (350 at the flywheel, just like the 377 offered). Is that a bad choice if I am going to run class 5?

Should I get a pumped up SBC? I know of a host of dry sumped late model race engines that would (detuned) give me 500+. Or shoudl I just go to a SB2.2 at 9 to 1 pulling 750+ (you know one built by Childress and/or Hendricks)?

I am still confused how a single engine boat with 600+ hp should not be running P4 though. If an F1 can run 80+ with a 525, how does one with 600+ justify running anything lower than P4.

Please help me understand.

Rick,

I was following you all they way up to the last post. Now you've confused me. :confused:

J

Look, the rules are very close now just maybe some small modifacation, it's not NASCAR, and the F2 boats and the twin big blocks are running Class 4 along with the SVL

Class 6 evolved because the 26 corsas the sunsations and smaller boats were not able to compete with the 650 hp+ Panteras and F1 boats in 5 class. All the classes are entry level depending on your wallet. If you think that class6 should be all beginners thats not gonna happen. As for the higher horsepower in Class6 and 5 it should be adressed and capped.
I have a 500 efi F1 boat that frustrates me cause I can't accelerate like some others what to do? Whipple it?
I ran the undertow corsa my first 2 years and was pretty happy in the back most of the time until all that Big power started to break thus bringing in some 1st, 2nd and 3rds:D
But I do agree it should be closer.

Limiting the Horsepower would help lower the cost and help make this class as into what it was intended to be when it was first introduced (before they removed it from the rule book) entry level. Question is what is the best way to check HP with out going all spec, and or pissing off people in the pits?

Timed acceleration, from 50-65 like someone suggested?
Having the engines “Looked at” has been suggested?


I don’t know the answer..

:D

Jim,

I really just want to know what engine to put in the boat if I am going to race it.

The continues to be a theme of high HP engines running in the lower classes. We can afford a big torquey engine, but holding true to my beliefs I did not want to go that route. But after reading Tyler's posts, maybe I should just get over my isses. You know "when in Rome".

Thus I know that I want to run class 5 (I think the speed limit is now 75?). From an honest assesment, I know that I can run this with the 383, but I will be at a disadvantage from an acceleration standpoint that others with much more powerful engines will have. So should I stick to the 383 (and stay true to my beliefs), or should I buy a fresh SB2.2 motor from a Cup team drop it in, test it and prop for 75 mph (and have a boat engine package that could not be out accelerated under any terms by any boat in P5, or P4 for that matter).

Sorry if the last post was confusing.

Yep 24' Dukes big power short boat big Balz they deserved that p5 win. What do we consider affordable because the two racing and affordable don't mix.And I don't see where smitty can make the fees any cheaper. A prop cost more than the yearly fee.If I knew they were gonna introduce 6 class I would not have bought the fountain and kept the corsa but I alredy made the purchase.

Rick,

I'm with you 100%. Smitty is booting the sandbaggers into a higher class. You just have to have faith in that. Like Eddie said, the rules need small tweeking in OPA. No big deal.

Now POPRA is a whole different story. Not that they're not trying, but this average lap speed stuff is pure crap. Our first outing was against a known 93 MPH 800+ boat running P5. What a joke yet the powers to be thought this was OK. I have no idea what the Raylar motor is running (when it runs) but it has put up some kilo numbers that would make me think its well over 600HP. Since your going to run POPRA, I suggest you get on the phone and hammer all this out before the first race. Aren't you the Northern Rep for POPRA? Its been so long since we had the members vote, I'm not sure who is who.

In 08 we're going to run SBI in F1. I think we can get 5 boats back and a couple more once they see F1 is off life support.

If you can't sell it, race it.

Jim

..

I've thought about this post alot,being from the f-1 school. Some of us should look at putting some form of that back together,like the pro tour cat guys did,but on the other hand there is great class that OPA has put together and just needs a little fine tuning.Don't know what the answer is but I know I have not heard it yet??? Everyone needs to man up!!!

Yes you can run 900 HP but you will break your drive every time. There is a fine line for power and finishing the race too. I agree 26' and least exspensive I don't have much more money in my motor than you do I just did all the machine work and built it myself. Would you like to buy either one I will sell them both. I know what you are saying you need to spend money to keep up but what about us guy's with the smaller boats we do not want to run against 30' boats either and I do not want to build a lower HP motor to run in the same class I will stay home and watch my grass grow. :D

So I don't get the point 425 vs 750 496 turn key with checkup 750 high maintenance. Let us be candid this will cost money and the higher the class the more it will cost as will any pleasure performance boating.Things always break!

Hey Tyler, did you try to get post # 69?:D

Tyler why not put a 496 in and run the class? Power for power!You have the newer technology (hull) but that would be fun! Dukes could also stay and put that power and I bet you would all be close.

Because it is all about accelleration now in P class racing. When F1 ran it was about top speed in the class if a guy out accellerated you in a corner you just drove by him on the straight away. You can not drive by people on the straight aways on a certain speed and GPS (right Chris)!!!!!! So if your boat only will run 80 with your biggest prop your accelleration is dog$hit. Now drop down 2 or 3 pitch sizes and turn the engine a little higher RPM and you have acceration but now your engine does not make power with the added RPM so now you drop back a class and prop the boat and RPM to fit the class. You could put the Hendrick motor in it probaly makes peak power at 9000 RPM I am sure you can find a 7 pitch prop off a sail boat to match the RPM and power range and top speed of the class. I built my engine for the 70 MPH class I took in account my rpm I would need, engine size, Piston speed, rotatating weight, compression, rod lenth, bore size, port size in the cylinder head for velocity, camshaft to match everything I just listed including header diameter and length. My motor was built so my RPM's and prop and rev limit ran right at 70 MPH it is not as simple to raise the RPM and prop size on mine and be competive in Class 5 I would lose my accelleration because the engine was built and dynoed for 70MPH.

Rick,

Having run my Bat Boat with a 377 in OPA Class 5 I would say if you want a chance to win at every OPA race, you will need more power. Put a blower on it.

Brian Hollis offered all you guy's with the stock power a class last year with a 10000.00 prize purse and nobody stepped up. Everybody complains about the big power in the smaller classes that's what it takes for acceration to win. OK limit the power to 500 HP and I will build a motor that out accerates your 500 HP and that will be the next complaint. If you want all the boats to run the same everybody will win nobody will lose.

I don't blame any P-Class guy that runs a big motor and little prop , they're only going by the rules. I just wanted to clarify that.

That's my # isnt that something :D

Knowing Tyler that was planned!:D

I already down sized :D

Tyler,
Now you are contradicting yourself. You first say that we need
big power to get the acceleration to win. Then you say if we
limit power to 500, you will build a 500 that will out accelerate
everyone else. Why not then limit the power to around 500HP
and the guys that can do their homework will still have an
advantage, but not as big a one?

By the way, this is in no way a attack on you and your
championship. You have done your homework and followed
the rules. I just see this thing escalating. No one wants to
repower their boat everytime someone shows up with a bigger
bullet.

Rich
Undertow 611

Planning is everything and so is winning !!!!!!!!! :D PS we are almost ready to dyno your motor.