I am not contradicting myself it is easier to build acceration with a bigger motor it will just cost more to do it in a 500 HP. I am just saying someone will allways find a advantage and when that someone does everyone else will complain. I am not worried about an attack or anybody hurting my feelings I am just stating what I think and I am not trying to impossable or hurt anybodys feelings either I have just been around for a long time and seen alot of classes come and go and I think the way OPA is right now you can not beat it. You could take your stock 420 HP 496 and I could take the same 496 Put a crankshaft in there that is 30#s lighter and a set of titainum connecting rods and a 8 # flywheel and the motor will make the same 420 HP but I will beat you everytime. Now that's why SBI has Innovation and myself build and check all the engines in the F1 class. If you let all those guy's build their own motors and even if we dynoed them and they made the right HP how would you control the guy's putting the light weight parts in ???

I am the Nothern Rep, long story for another day. I did not get invited to one meeting all year.

You know it. Actually I was looking to sell as I had an offer for a full time ride with the BCRA racing a midget. Couple that with my road racing schedule and there would be no time left. Ended up walking away from the full time midget ride, we will do some select races during 08 though and thought it might be nice to get the boat running and do some more racing.

Good luck with the F1 deal, I would still like to put together an SVL team. Just won't happen this year.

Rick

No if everyone is close with equiptment then the race is any given day! If everybody will win is impossible. Maybe you should try the 496 and run the smiths if you are seriously trying to use your knowledge move way up in class! Compete with JC.

I already ran P3 and won a World Championship with my old boat Fortress a 30' Phantom if you sponsor me I will go after Smitty in Class 2 then move on to Haggin.:D

sos

What do you road race? I run SCCA and do some crewing in Grand Am Rolex

Rich
Undertow 611

I agree OPA has a great thing going. As far as controlling
what lite parts are in there, You can't without the tech BS.

So your opinion is that engine rules should be wide open in
class 6?

You certainly have more motor knowledge than I
do, but I do not see harm in putting a reasonable limit on
the HP... like you said, you still will build a better engine and beat us, but the rest of us "closer to stock" guys will
run together behind you and hope your lite crank breaks.

Rich

The motor I ran in Cambridge was 625 HP that's not to unresonable. When we built our A and B class engines they were 800 HP and 35-40000.00 each.

Rich that knowledge needs to step way up and that is a compliment!

I will make you a deal buy my boat and I will build a new boat and engine and run you in Class 5. :D

I remember last year at this time it was the Dukes right here in this same spot as you are trying to put me in but I built the boat for 6 and it is staying in 6. You guys need to spend more time getting your own boats to win instead of eliminating the winners and moving them out of the class.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm not trying to eliminate anyone, I am just participating in a discussion in regards to
the future of the class. Now is the time in the early off season to have constructive dialogs on potential rule tweaks
or changes. I don't claim to know all the answers or even any of them. If we leave the class alone that is fine we will adjust.
But we don't want to have this discussion two days before the first race.

Rich

Yeeeaaaahhh......

OOOHHHHYEEEAAAAHH......


That's Right !!!

You know it is curious that we are focused so much on the HP and engines.

The other factor being boat weight for some reason does not get discussed.

In a way I am embarassed that I have not brought it up, but in the end if a boat is too dominant maybe the weight needs to be adjusted. This is what they do in stock car racing.

There are multiple dirt track series where different engines get different weight breaks, who says that could not be the same in P class racing.

Thus if you want to run a certain engine you can, but the boat should have to have additional weight. This (power to weight) would even the playing field quickly.

Once again, this is not targeted at anyone, just an idea of how to ensure the playing field is level so that we can encourage more to come out and race.

How to race economicly on a level water field?
 

Just to throw my two cents in here as a realitive newbie in the P class racing. Its not just a level playing field that most P-5 ,P6 racers are looking for its also an affordable playing field! You need to have a reasonable horsepower limit in these classes, lets say 500HP max for P-6 and 600HP for P-5 with cubic inch limits of lets say 509 for P-6 and 540 for P-5, no superchargers or turbo's, a GPS verifiable speed limit of lets say 70mph for P-6 and 80mph for P-5 and reasonable standard manufactured hull weights that would not require special coring, layup and infusion processes that greatly raise hull costs. These horsepower and cubic inch limits can be accomodated with pretty much standard Bravo drives so no need for #6's and such and when coupled with reasonably moderate speeds should make acceleration a little less important and no need for teams to build these so called "liteweight big cube motors" that can out accelerate the more "standard" stock weight motors to be competitive.
I think if this type of approach is taken you will get more participating teams, more sponsors and much closer racing that the average high performance boating fan can relate to!
That's where the real future of high performance entry class boat racing is the strongest!
The 496's we build could easily be made affordable for boats running in these two classes at these horsepower levels without breaking teams "piggybanks" ! And we would not need any special expensive lightweight internals to get there.

PS. for Flashwave, the Raylar 496 in our sponsored Laveycraft P racer is a +.010" over standard Raylar HO525 - 496 engine with headers that produces 565HP on the dyno and is rev-limited at 5350 rpms. No special lightweight parts. Yes it has run over 90mph in Kilos with special props but it won't race worth a damn in that trim!
We could make it 600HP+ with just a cam change but that might make it a little to hard on some of those HP525 blue motors.

Just some more wood for the fire here. This is great constructive discussion with ideas and many heads are always better at problem solving than two or three!

Regards,

Ray @ Raylar

That was going to be my next point Heavy verses light weight, step bottom verses V bottom, The X dimension factor, I remember in the Factory classes they started with a 500 carburator engine then that engine was oppsolete and all you could get was the 525, then GM had the 525 HP 496 with a whole different Torque curve in the engine with the 4.370 stroke verses the 502 4.000 stroke. Then they had X dimension limits and weight limits and different RPM limits had to have cranes to weigh every boat before and after the race (Who had hidden ballast tanks)??? Who modified their ECU ??? If you limit HP who is going to check all the engines ??? It is a lot easier to have a set speed with a GPS and use the Prop calculation so you don't have a 80 MPH in a 70 MPH class. More than likely the 80 MPH boat won't be able to run with a boat set up for 70 because his HP and Torque curves are not in the right limits. If we had a way to check RPM's at the end of the race like the GPS speed it would eliminate a lot of cheating.

Hey Jimmy Is JC busy building your 1700's I have not heard from him. When Smitty gets moved to Class 1 You and Pop Pop have to run Haggin :D

Tyler,
That is why I have been participating in this discussion. To get all the information out for everybody. Your points have been valid, as I said earlier, I don't profess
to have the answers. If leaving class 6 as is is the way to go,
then I am all for it. I agree we don't want to go through all
that tech stuff. But there is no harm in sharing ideas.

Rich

That is all I am doing Rich is telling my points that I have seen but the way it is now seems to be the best without all the teching. Your boat is not that far off you probally have just as much Torque as us with your 4.370 stroke you just need a little head work and a camshaft.

I appreciate your comments. Pete just told me I have come across like a whiner with my comments. That is not my
intention. I apologize if I do.
I did not intend to minimize the Dukes or your hard work
or success in the class or to target either one of you. I
was just participating in a discussion of ideas.

Rich

Any input Smitty!!!!!! Ideas ,suggestions?
I dont think its to hard to weigh the boats at the begging of the year and maybe a suprise lift in the season. I have a scale if opa wants to borrow it.
MD

Tylor, we all know you have done nothing wrong and are running with in the current rules BUT how can you possably think any fan or other race thinks that this can remotely be what class 6 should be about. Most class 6 guys want to have a place to run there $10k-$25K old A class boats with low mantanace motors. Couldnt you help the class and put in a 454 CI motor and use your talent on the course instead of in the dyno room building power the rest of these guys could only dream of.:party-smiley-004:
MD

Rich Tell Pete to get back to work :D You are not whining you are just saying what you think and there is no harm in that. It is good to hear what everybody thinks and we all work together. I do not Know everything or Claim too ( Donzilla) But even if I put a so called stock motor in the boat who is judging and checking stock ???

Randy most of the old A class boats had 700 and 800 HP Do you mean the Old F1 boats that ran in the 78- 80 MPH plus range ??? We could buy a prop shaft dyno and test every boat in the parking lot and that would eliminate all tech, inspections, pysicals, and breathalizers and evrybody would save money and broken parts.:D

Randy, I am not asleep at the wheel. Just reading. I have been trying to find a better mouse trap. The current formula has worked well. But, with the increase in boat count, comes the challenge of keeping everyone happy, and in the game. We have outgrown our current program. I do have some ideas, however listening to all of the teams commenting in here, is more of an asset than anything else. I encourage you guys to keep thinking out loud. Just remember, we are all in this together. No need to hurt any feelings. Most of us take our racing seriously to heart. Lets work together and find a good solution we can all be proud of. 2008 is going to be an incredible year for OPA. There will be some press releases soon that will open some eyes. So lets get it right now, and race our a@@'@ off all season. Smitty

If Cooper would agree, I would provide a prop dyno for POPRA (been thinking about getting one anyways), once you have that info you could assign a weight to the boat and provide a level playing field.

If there are 10+ boats in the field, ending the day by weighing the boats and doing a dyno on the top 3 would not be out of line. Just my .02.

Rick

It is going to a point where you having knowledge of setting up a boat and you can't use it because you are winning you a penalized. If all the boats were the same and somebody won all the time are you going to penalize them after awhile ?? When they made the Factory classes and Super V and Super V lite it took all the engine builders out of the sport accept Mercury. Why would somebody build a 500 or 600 HP motor and then have a bunch of weight thrown on them ?? There has to be some room for human error also.

I agree, but the discussion is how do we ensure the playing field is level. That was all I was proposing, power to weight is a way to level the playing field.

There will always be advantages to running one hull type v another. In addition some guys will always win no matter what they race and some guys will always lose (we should call that the "ball" factor).

By no means would I ever try to take away an advantage that someone has that is earned and I do not think that is what is being discussed here. It is about leveling the playing field.

For years I have been accused of cheating in every motorsport I have run (even with POPRA and the bat boat). I have had motors torn down more than you will ever believe. I have been found legal and illeagal. But in all cases I still support rules that level the playing field as best as possible. In the end, the guys who accused me of cheating could not accept that they were consistently getting beat.

As a Lotus driver I fully understand the concept of power to weight. And it seems to me that is not an unreasonable way to look at the boats. Now the downside is many of the poker run guys we are looking to get in the sport do not have slings, thus how do we weigh their boats. Maybe in those cases we use the manufaturers numbers.

Rick

Opa Rule Book For 2008 Will Stay The Same As It Was For The 2007 And 2006 Season,

Rules Were Set In Place For Three Years

U Guys B$tched For The P6 Class To Be Formed And Move The Small Boats Down A Class, So The F1 Had A Place To Go And Made The Limit 30, Now U Guys Want The 30 Foot Twins Out Of P5 And Then The 38s Moved Up To P3.

Most Of This Conversation Was Based Around Me And Tyler, I Ran My 24 Against 30 and 28 Footers For 2 Years And Busted Her Up Numerous Times And Cost Me Tons Of Money, Last Year P6 Was Formed By The Racers And It Was The Most Boring Class Until Tyler And Goerge Came Out To Give Us Some Competition And We Had A Blast, Tyler Built A P6 Boat To Beat Me And Did A Hell Of A Job Doing It !!!!!

Alot Of These Boats Out There Have The CapaBility To Run In The Front Of The Class, With Stock Power, Testing Different Set Ups And They Could Be There, Me And Jay Tried Tons Of Different Setups This Year And Those 500 and 525 Have A Shot In P5, And Smith Brothers I Told U Two Things To Try And U Could Be In The Front Of Bolth Me And Tyler...

Time To Start Spending Some Time TEsting And Getting The Setup Perfect, This Doesnt Mean Clean The Boat After The Race And Show Up To The Next One.. Some Of You Guys Dont Even Wash The Boat And Just Show Up To The Next One

Opa Is In The Process Of A New Gps System Or Speed Device, But The Class Rules Will Stay In Place For One More Season And Then Up For Disscusion And The End Of The 2008 Season.
Opa Has Grown Big Time These Past Two Years And Will Do The Same This Year..

Chris,

After decideing to race again after a couple year hiatus, the first thing I noticed is the same questions are being asked just the class has changed. Two-three years ago this was the P4 division where these same comments occured. Nobody was worried about P5 at the time.

It was the same story, P3 boats were moving to P4 with big power where the former P4 boats could not compete. So what has happened. Boats have continued to move down classes and a new class P6 has emerged. But the problem has not really been solved. While I agree with you that you can overcome much of this with testing, and the guys who test will always run up front. The question that Randy asked was (paraphrasing) how do we level the playing filed so that you do not have to build a new engine just because the other guy did.

At this rate there will be a P10 class real soon that I will be able to run our 46' sedan bridge in (now that would be fun, sitting on the bridge sipping cocktails while racing).

In the end the issue continues to be solved using the same old techniques (add a new class) which in the end really does not solve the issue. The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over expecting different results.

While there has been some whining on here, there have also been some good suggestions. Suggestions that could be tried in different formats to see how they work prior to widespread implementation.

Rick

that would be fun, sitting on the bridge sipping cocktails while racing).




I will throttle for you because that only requirers 1 hand :drink:

[QUOTE=TylerCrockett;2342381
I will throttle for you because that only requirers 1 hand :drink:[/QUOTE]

Come on out, we are considering entering her in P5 for the Pittsburg race (she has twin engines). The good news is that there is an upper and lower helm, thus we do not even have to sit in the wind. Although putter her on the dyno will prove a bit challenging, but at 30,000 pounds no one will to worried that we will out accelerate them. :D

Don't forget the fact that we can bring 10+ navigators on board, 20+ if they are really hot :evilb:

In fact that weekend is opening weekend for the NFL, we can race, drink and watch the game all at the same time. How much better could it get, and if we can get a P10 class in place by then we might even win.

I am for P-10 class. Cruisers rule 80% of the time.

Better make that 75%

:drink:

Option: More "Offshore" Race Venues Meaning OCEAN Races. Even Guys with a ton of power fear the open Ocean with rollers. No need to limit anything, racing in the ocean. There are many more variables thrown in the eqation. A class 6 boat can be the winner overall if they are there at the finish line. Even if you are in class 4 with a cap of 84.9 mph and there are 6-8' waves out there, You may only run max 70mph your boat is capable of 84.9..yes, but your body and mind may not be. This means that a class 5 Boat may pass you because he/she feels more comfortable. When we run in areas like Cambridge, It is basically a drag race to the first turn, and if your boat is down 1mph then you are a loser your only sight of hope is misfortune for the competition to either Break out, spin out, or blow up. Smitty... I know you are reading this and I stand behind you 110% with whatever you do, You are an honest man that works his ass off for all of us to go out there and have fun! Thank you for everything you and the entire OPA organization do! Keep up the Great job.

Jr.
Bounty Hunter Offshore Racing

Amen Brother!

Rich
Undertow 611

Billy Martin,

I completely agree with you. While I am not an equipment owner I was involved with a team this past season and got to watch each and every class race. While I know that the calm water venues have come into play for sponsorship dollars and for better spectators viewing the rough water venues would be the great equalizer for sure. Still if the teams want to just race and not spend the time working on there boats in between races like Carbone stated then others will still remain to be dominant in there specific class.

I agree with others who have stated that P6 has gotten out of hand as well. Some of the top boats racing and winning this year could easily be moved into the class above by simply changing a prop. So many factore to come into play but like many other motorsports, the more time and testing you put in the better the overall team performance will be.

For the most part I think everyone knows what the issues are. Even the ones who have caused the issues know how it can be changed. Do I have all the answers, hell no, but I would like to hope that it can be looked at or addressed in a proper fair manner.

I know everyone has been talking about "entry" level classes. What about adding a P7 class and making it 18-20' small block iron head, stock exhaust 50mph class. then we could all agree it is "entry" and could get alot more people involved. make it a trophy only class and you would pull alot more "little" testing the water guys. Get a few baja outlaws and check mates out there running. talk about a fun big water class to watch. .... OK maybe just on the river circuit but it would be cool to have as many have said a "feeder" type class. then if you like it, buy a real boat. if you dont think its for you, head to the sand bar.


Just a thought, only thinking of the good of the sport.

:hitfan:

I think we are trying to fix what we already have not add more boat classes. How about Modified 5 and 6 People with modified engines run for the money and Stock 5 and 6 engines run for a trophy.

Tyler, I think one of the biggest problems, weve had in racing is the creation of more and more classes. Classes have been created to just accommodate individual boats. It is ridiculous. You have to build your boat to fit in a particular class, not the other way around. Thats the way it is in other forms of racing.
When I ran in SCCA, if your car didnt fit the specs, you couldnt run in that class. No way around it.
Billy Martin hit it right on the head. While racing is racing, the flatwater courses have created issues we never had with the big water races. The racing is closer and faster, the courses much shorter. The human endurance factor has pretty much been taken out of the picture. The big water ocean races are the Great Equalizer. Take last yrs OC race. Prime example.
While its nice to have some flat out racing. "Offshore" has always been about crew ablility and endurance and equipment holding together in big water. If we have more ocean venues I think we might see the playing field leveled a bit more.

Come on Tyler, I'll lend you a cut down 24bravo,or put a little cup in your props and you will be just right for class5.Besides I want too see if my 500 packages can beat the monster CROCKET ROCKET I hear so much about ??? PS. I do my homework too!!!!!!!!!!!!!