P5 rules
 

Now the season is over and teams have time to evaluate there program, they most likely are thinking about more power for there boats if they were running middle of the pack. Is there anything we should talk about in class 5 or is it OK for all. I remember not to long ago I was not aloud to run in class 5 with my 500 EFI and now its OK to build 700 hp for this class. Should we evaluate some motor restrictions or just pocket book race. With more purse money next year lets not lose focus on equality of teams. Class 5 is killer racing but why wouldnt someone build a 30' boat with a # 6 drive and 800 HP and prop to 75 MPH. Its not outside the rules as it stands. Class 6 has unlimited power rules as well. Just trying to tighten up the rules just a little so it doesn't turn into has the most money to build the biggest power.
A suggestion might be class 6 has a max HP of 450 and class 5 has a max of 600 HP.
MD

Randy Deff A Good Point, They Should Get Alittle Tighter With The Rules Since The Money Is Going To Draw A Bigger Crowd Of Boats,
But Everyone Is Going To Have To Get Together And Figure Out How To Tighten It Up, Maybe The Weight Vs Hp Or Something, Its Just Hard To Put A Max Hp On A Class If There Are Lighter Step Bottom Verse A Standard Heavy V,

But We Should Start Looking At It Now So Everyone Can Start Getting Ready. Opa Was The $hit Last Year And Its Just Going To Get Better This Year With Wat There Bringin To The Plate..

It's only a 28ft with a #4.

In all seriousness I do agree. Keep class 6 as it was intended, entry level than “govern” class 5, Problem is how do we assure that the engines are only 450 or 600hp with out going into sealed motors?

I agree. Pete & I had a hard time keeping up in class 6 with a
bone stock 496 MAG HO(425HP) with a stock Bravo I. I would like to see a HP limit of around 500.. The issue again is how to enforce it.
No one wants all that teardown/tech crap.


Rich
UNDERTOW 611

Hmmmm:cool-smiley-011:

My suggestion regard hp limits? Start with class 6. I know there was some strong arguments against it last year and RIGHTFULLY so but there needs to be a time to make the switch.

The rules are what governs how someone builds the boat for the class they want to run. Until rules strictly state you can or cannot do something then its obviously gonna be deemed acceptable. The best racers are those that take their racing AND building to the edge.

Why start with class 6? Because I feel 6 is the perfect class to get newbies involved in the sport with minimal cash outlay. This year no one could honestly say it was a beginner class...not by a long shot! I'd like to see more of a focus on making 6 more entry level friendly. Maybe even make a one or two season max in 6 or after X wins you move up. Just a thought.

For the other classes to be governed 5 would be the only one that would be a maybe. Why? Because so much plays into the overall rig...hp, weight, length, i/o or o/b, etc. If it is to governed I say tread lightly because it is such a great class already!!! For the other classes, very tough to govern such a variety, just let speed dictate these upper classes. I think the fans like to see a variety. Not hard for them to understand all the 4s are racing 4s, 3s vs 3s, etc. Cool to see the vee vs. cat, stern vs. o/b, etc. I do agree 100% that if any revisions are being considered they be brought up early so boats can be built to that spec before next season. If it is decided this is in the best interest of the class / organization of course.

Now you guy's are talking!

I agree 6 needs to be entry level, but I disagree with the ideas
of moving up after 2 seasons or X wins. Class 5 would be
a bigger investment for us as our motor would be too small
and the boat would be too short. (Something my wife once told me). If we can keep a lid on the HP, I think it
would be attractive for rookies as well as established teams on limited budgets.\

Rich
undertow

True, Entry level could not only mean "experience" it could also carry over to "equipment" - as in Class 6 is for "entry level teams" and/or " entry level equipment"

Get people hooked.. than they may go out and refi-the house and get a 35 canopied race boat in the later years and this in turn helps the sport grow.

I see what you're saying I just want to make sure that people stay hooked after that first season. Having a true shot at the podium really keeps the season exciting and motivates teams to leave their home area in search of the checkered! HP limit may just be enough to do that.

Randy,

That is a great question. It is my understanding that class 5 is a single engine under 30' class. Maybe the next step is to say stock power.

Most of these boats have one of the following engines, 525EFI, 500HP, 496HO, etc.

Maybe it makes sense for he class to list "authorized" engines that are stock with stock intake and exhaust.

Thus the bottom line is, if you have a custom built engine you are going to run P4 at a minimum, which based on what I have seen, most custom engines are greater than 525hp.

Just a thought.

Rick

Maybe P-5 modified and P-5 stock?

just a quick after bar response but I like OPA because we are not a "spec" engine organization nor do we create more classes than needed. I'm sure the powers to be will make the right call. '08 has the makings for an amazing season.

P-5 Limit Horsepower to weight,Make the horsepower rule to fit the Majority of the class already mostly stock power, No twin engine boats period!
Tech the boats and seal the hatch do the prop inspections before and after the race.Positivlely indentify limiters. And lets not make veiwing GPS results a secret all classes should have a random group (Draw numbers) of atleast 3 teams present for reading.Most important enforce the rules and don't bend them for any reason such as a show for the fans! If a boatrides around the course and is last place but eveyone broke-- broke out-- or GPS failed last place wins! I bring that up because it is not always like that. Entry level means start the class where your wallet allows you to. Everyone has some expierence at performance boating I don't think anyone just woke up clueless and said today I am gonna be a boat racer.AS for stock or Modified that would be a sin to divide the class in two.No fun racing a few boats 10 plus is good.

I agree, no more Classes.

Should I stop building my new twin aluminum small blocks now?... I do see the need for some minor adjustments in these 2 classes but they are very good now. Maybe limet class 6 to HP500 and let the 29 and 30 with stock 496 in.
Smitty mention one time about limiting the revlimeters, that the big HP engines need lots of RPM to develop the hp. The success of our classes has been not having to rebuild do to constant rule changes. I would say keep the twin outboards in and grandfather the twin inboards.

What size prop do they allow in p5?I have seen a lot of former p4 boats move down to p5 using some built up motors,I guess its ok if it can keep people interested,just can't let it get too expensive(thats what happend in the old apba a class) or the sport will suffer,seems like the sport just goes in a big circle.The p classes have brought out a lot of racers and they need to continue to make it grow.Now i need to figure out what class to race my 30 superboat in,i thought p4 but now if everone is racing there 26-30ft singles with big power in p5,i guess i need to put a small prop on it and make sure i don't break out.

Not that much power, 800 would put you in class 4, JC is running a single in class 3. Most boats that moved from class 4 to 5 was do to the development of class 6.

What do you guys think about starting up the conference calls like we did last year in the off season.

When Paul Abreau / APBA tech'd a boat he'd always figure best possible scenario as far as engine , drive , boat , speed. It worked everytime. Example:

A P4 boat rolls in and it's 30 ft long and has single 700 hp / dry sump motor w/ a Bravo 1 drive. We all know WOT w/ the biggest prop it would spin = P3 , end of story! It wouldn't take long to get the parity straightened out and deck to deck racing would be more frequent! This would allow HP 500's and 496's back into racing and it would be affordable also. Just my
.02 worth.

Another class 6 thought - But what about lowering the boat reg. fee from lets say $500 to $150 and lowering the driver/thottleman fee from 100 to $50 pr. person and than making class 6 a trophy only class? Or maybe a small purse, to help pay gas - 500 / 350 / 150; Try and get the first time racer involved and keep people from sandbagging.

As I'm typing this I do realize it would punish ligament class 6 teams (Under Tow comes to mind) Teams with small boats and small power, but like I said this is just a thought.

I'm not sure I like the elimination of the purse in class 6, but
how about a single event registration fee of $150 that covers
boat & 2 crew members. Then a local guy can race without
paying for the season. If he runs another race he has to
pay the $500 boat plus crew registration minus the $150 he
already paid for a single event
The key issue for class 6 is how to keep the hp within reason
for 26' foot boats. (The 26' limit should stay). I definitely
don't want spec motors. But I don't want 700HP either.
Rich
Undertow 611

First off P class racing is not spec racing. OPA was built on teams with older boats looking for a place to run because they were no longer competitive in spec classes. With that being said we have a lot of odd ball hulls with different set ups that we must fit into 6 class's. To attract and keep people coming back YOU HAVE TO FEEL YOU HAVE A SHOT. Its worked great up to this point but now is the critical time to to make sure the racers feel good about there class. Its easy to get 3-6 teams to agree when we started but now we have class's with almost 15 boats. I can promise you it will get ugly behind the scenes and finger pointing and bad mouthing other teams with this many or more boats if we dont have conferees calls and keep that warm feeling. Everything needs to evolve in time when we started we just wanted as many boats as possible to show and we had to be more flexible. Lets try and keep the cost down for this type of racing with the best return on investmet as possible.Building bigger HP is NOT the answer. Class 5 boat are approaching a SVL cost in a spec class.
MD

As I was typing I thought about you guys, maybe just enforce the “entry-level” equipment rule were teams with 600, 650 or 700 plus HP should be moved up to 5. But I do like the Single event fee idea.

How can we effectively (and easily) determine the HP of a boat?
I'm not trying to a wiseguy, I really don't know. Do we form
a class 6 committee that makes a determination at each event? I don't want to add to the work of the OPA staff or
Smitty. Is self policing the answer? or does that just lead
to trouble.

Rich
Undertow 611

A smart tech guy can get real close on the hp of any engine by just looking at it.

I think you can whistle test a motor and also find out compression fairly easy. If you know cubic inch and compression you should get in the ball park. Inspect the motor at begining of year and document it. If ANY team in class feels they want it checked again pay OPA $100 and have it checked. It better be the same as it was in the first race unless it was changed and the whole class is notified. Have a max on cubic inch and compression.
I for one am keeping my stock Merc. 525 and plan on kicking all your butttzzzz.
MD

This is great in theory, but very hard to make fair for everyone. Take Class 2 we had great racing this year and had boats with 525s, 750s and 850s. Extreme had the biggest motors but were only competitive in the really rough stuff(they are now in Class 3) The year before, OTC had similar HP and played with the class. It needs to be an Accelleration time that is measured. That is all that matters in OPA. Any protested or obvious big HP gets run and timed to a set max accelleration time for each class. Then you can build anything your check book allows. I personally feel that top end breakout is useless, if you boat can break out before you are 3/4 of the way down the long straight, you should be moved up in class.

I am very confused that people complain about the cost of hp then turn around and say it should be a spec class with a Mercury motor?! I personally think the competition starts with the turn of the first wrench! Maybe I'm a rarity but the thought of a spec engine bores the hell outta me. I loved it in supercat years ago when there were multiple engine builders supplying engines. Mercury build a GREAT product but limiting racers options isn't the answer.

With all this talk of sealing hatches, compression tests, etc. one thought comes to mind..."kiss: keep it simple stupid". Nothing to offend anyone only that OPA has thrived because of the rules and I think alot of the boats are out racing because the class division by speed gives everyone the feeling they have a shot even with dated or odd equipment. Everyone has a home here.

Another thing that just does not sit well is how you can say put a boat strictly in a class based on theoretical WOT speed? I think with the right prop every single boat could break out of their class...having a 30' boat that runs class 3 speeds does NOT mean they should be placed in that class. Running the top speed does not mean you're going to have the acceleration needed, and the short boat length is not only a potential disadvantage but a safety issue. You have to take into consideration the entire rig in my opinion.

I like the amount of input this thread is getting. Sitting back and wondering is not going to benefit anyone. That said I do respect OPA's rule about the rules locked-in for X amount of time. I just think that we need to open to "evolution" not changes of the rule book. After all that's what got all of us walking on two feet! :D

It seems the P-Class teams are beginning to realize that it’s not about top speed anymore. When the P-Class racing structure was developed you would watch boats running in a Class that it took everything they had on their best day in perfect conditions to get up to the top of their speed bracket. Then came along the tinkerers and their big horsepower, high RPM motors and they can easily hit their top bracket speed in matter of 6-9 seconds and hold that speed all day long. P-Class has evolved to what it is, a high horsepower, fast acceleration game for racing strategists. This is not all bad, along with the evolution came some really exciting and close racing in every Class.

I don’t think that any new rules based on mechanical controls are the answer to the perceived issues the racers are facing today. We have the technology in place to control speed and acceleration without spec engines, dyno testing, rev limiters, or any other mechanical restriction.

The current use of GPS to control top speeds provides the information to also monitor and control acceleration. Average acceleration…which is determined by the change in speed divided by time can easily be determined with the data we are already recording and using to determine breakouts. Simply drop the data into a spreadsheet template and read the average acceleration over a given time at any point of the race…If you don’t know how to do this...ask your 10 year old son, daughter, nephew, or niece to show you how.

To give you an example…lets say the Class decided that no boat should be allowed to have an average acceleration factor greater than going from 60 mph to 80 mph in less than 15 seconds. If you subtract 60 from 80 you get 20 (the change in speed). Divided 20 by 15 (time) and you get an average acceleration factor of 1.33. You can then apply the allowable acceleration factor to every GPS reading recorded during the race and any boat that exceeds the acceleration factor at any time during the race is penalized accordingly.

Application of acceleration controls would let each team run whatever equipment they want in any size or type of boat they want. If a particular boat has a high prop slip factor, they can prop their boat accordingly, if they have big horsepower, they can set their max RPM and size their prop accordingly. No matter what the boat/engine/drive/propeller combination you use…if your performance is with the allowed criteria…your legal.

Controlled acceleration, combined with top GPS speeds eliminates the need for any other type of rule for any Class. It’s clean, simple, doesn’t cost anything to implement, and you can not cheat the data.

The only advantage possible is to do your homework, and learn how to set up your boat so you don’t go too fast….or get there to quickly.

Something to think about…..

Great ,you guys are right on time with this class 5 or p5 debate!,many of the SBI teams have been making noise about some changes to their class or revamping the F-1 class? Only speaking for the CRAZY CHICKEN team which will be an active part of OPA this year I would like to see the class keep the strong boat count that it has been able to and that will only be done if you keep the 700+hp engines singles in their right classes.Everyone knows that bracket racing is all about acceleration, team setup and cockpit performance,clearly there are boats that run well above the 75 mph cap but are somewhat handicapped running against longer twin engine class 4 boats !!! Without turning this into spec class racing maybe the speed cap can be raised a few #s maybe 80mph ? this would at least make the cockpit crew work a little harder and would take away from the big HP packages from having such dominating acceleration at the starts,just my 2cents. PS, I respect the 3 year rule plan that OPA has in place, not trying to buck the system just my thoughts as a fellow racer. Randy can't wait to see you next year "BEHIND US"

How about average lap speed then? I think that is what POPRA does. Now the advantage is on the boat that can power thru the corner and a steady throttleman for the straights. Just a thought!

Dave

The POPRA system of average lap speed plain a$$ sucks. Smitty is on the right track with the GPS for tracking breakouts and testing boats for proper classification. Average Lap Speed quickly turns into checkbook racing. Mega horsepower and high torque to go 75 MPH. Why?

Man just tech em and run WOT! I'll never quit beating this drum!

Excuse me...contrary to popular belief, Smitty did not invent GPS P-Class racing...the credit goes to Bob Bull when he iintroduced GPS data recording into the SBI/APBA Rules. With his experience with the Garmin GPS units...he was way ahead of the curve on that one.

Smitty/OPA was a copy cat....but it WAS a smart move. :D

their are 3 things to control hp. 1 cid of engine 2. cylinder head flow 3. compression ratio. if you control those 3 things everyone would be very close. this allows for you to use any engine builder and is alot more easy to control. two of those are very easy to check by pumping the engine. the cylinder head would have to be a spec head and could be several diffrent makes an intake runner cc would have to be set.
but with the break out rule i do not see a need for policing.

It is kinds funny, every year this conversation is had and every year small changes are made. How long will it be before we are back to

P4= 79.9 top speed
P5= 69.9 top speed
P6= 59.9 top speed

It seems to me that used to be the case and the same boats were racing against each other. Changing the numbers does not change that.

Although it does seem wierd to me that in 04 we could win P4 races with the bat boat and now I see them running in 6. Does not make sense to me.

Honestly I think propping down makes you a big ***** and you should be ashamed of yourself. Run the boat as hard as you can.

Individuals who prop down are not racers, racers push the limits of their equipment.

With the speed changes of the divisions it appears the bat boat is now a class 5 boat, thus that is what we will run with the new engine which has a bit less power than the last one had.

Looking forward to this coming season.

The more you post the more we become friends.:rolleyes:

Thanks, how about you bring the family over for dinner?:food-smiley-007:

Joker,

I hope your putting an F1 boat together.

J